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Home: Inactive Forums: Casablanca Users:
Casablanca Avio ST vs Casablanca Avio DV vs Casablanca Avio DV Pro

X-Mike
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Dec 19, 2002, 4:21 PM

Post #1 of 11 (2069 views)
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Casablanca Avio ST vs Casablanca Avio DV vs Casablanca Avio DV Pro	Can't Post

X-Banned_Bob
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Dec 19, 2002, 5:04 PM

Post #2 of 11 (2062 views)
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Re: Casablanca Avio ST vs Casablanca Avio DV vs Casablanca Avio DV Pro	Can't Post

: I am about to purchase a Casablanca
: Avio ST from www.123DV.com for $999.
: I would like to know if I should spend
: the extra $500 and purchase the Avio DV?
: Is it really worth it?
: I am currently using a S-VHS source.
Welcome to the Forum, Mike!
No, it's not worth the extra $500. You won't ever see any quality difference. For basic video editing, please don't get into the mistake of buying a little, then adding a little, adding a little more, adding a little more. You can spend over $5000 on this little $999 box without realizing it. When you're all done, you've still got a $999 with a few little add-ons. Push the $999 box to its limits and make a bunch of money with it. Then spring for a more complete system (there are lots of them -- Avid Xpress DV, Canopus Storm2, etc.) when you feel like moving up to a higher level of editing. Avio will nickel & dime you out of your savings if you let it.
Bob
NLE editing since 1995

X-Gave_up
Imported Account

Dec 20, 2002, 8:06 AM

Post #3 of 11 (2062 views)
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Re: Casablanca Avio ST vs Casablanca Avio DV vs Casablanca Avio DV Pro [In reply to]	Can't Post

: : I am about to purchase a Casablanca
: : Avio ST from www.123DV.com for $999.
: : I would like to know if I should spend
: : the extra $500 and purchase the Avio DV?
: : Is it really worth it?
: : I am currently using a S-VHS source.
: Welcome to the Forum, Mike!
: No, it's not worth the extra $500. You won't ever see any quality difference. For basic video editing, please don't get into the mistake of buying a little, then adding a little, adding a little more, adding a little more. You can spend over $5000 on this little $999 box without realizing it. When you're all done, you've still got a $999 with a few little add-ons. Push the $999 box to its limits and make a bunch of money with it. Then spring for a more complete system (there are lots of them -- Avid Xpress DV, Canopus Storm2, etc.) when you feel like moving up to a higher level of editing. Avio will nickel & dime you out of your savings if you let it.
: Bob
: NLE editing since 1995
Or you can do what I did and buy a Avio for $2000 with the DV option and then buy extras as they come out and invest another $2000 Then get disgusted and sell it all at a loss and buy Pinnacle Studio deluxe for $200 and edit quicker and faster than the Avio ever could. The only problem I have heard about with the Pinnacle is audio sync problems, I have not experienced this problem. I do put everything in via firewire. You can buy a cheap Digital 8 camera and still have less money than you will spend on the Avio.

X-Steve
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Dec 20, 2002, 9:40 AM

Post #4 of 11 (2062 views)
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Re: Casablanca Avio ST vs Casablanca Avio DV vs Casablanca Avio DV Pro [In reply to]	Can't Post

Thanks to guys like Bob this forum does not deserve the name "Casablanca User Forum" anymore.
:-(
Steve

X-Banned_Bob
Imported Account

Dec 21, 2002, 11:14 AM

Post #5 of 11 (2065 views)
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Re: Casablanca Avio Questions... [In reply to]	Can't Post

: Thanks to guys like Bob this forum does not
: deserve the name "Casablanca User Forum" anymore.
: Steve
Is that because this forum allows users to honestly answer questions about these systems, UN-like the other MacroSystem controlled forums out there?
The question was asked, "Is DV on the Avio worth an extra $500?" Absolutely no way! It's a $30 add-on to any other PC on the market. $500 is ridiculously inflated. I don't care if they've had to totally re-engineer the Avio box, spend $5,000,000 on software R&D and take four teams of mules and a rocket scientist to install it into the Avio. That's totally irrelevant.
The "ease of use" advantage on the Avio is paid for by the initial charge of $999 for the unit. We shouldn't have to pay for that over and over and over again. We're looking at a subset of standard PC components in a box with a 233MHz CPU, 64MB RAM, 20 GB hard drive, standard I/O, plus a $25 C-cube video processor chip and $5 of connectors. Market value of about $250 tops. That means you're spending the other $749 for the Casablanca software. To be quite blunt, as we are dawning on 2003, that's quite an expensive software package for what it gives you. It's really not a whole lot more in capability than the software that comes bundled with a $30 firewire card at CompUSA. Once you realize that, it becomes extremely difficult to justify spending the relatively huge amounts on the hardware upgrades and software upgrades that are available.
For comparison, a computer I bought last week cost $400 including Monitor and Printer (Avio doesn't include a monitor and you can't even print from it). It also has a 48x CD-ROM (Avio does not and cannot use one), twice the RAM (upgradable to 16x the RAM), twice the hard drive storage space with virtually unlimited maximum (stock Avio limits to 20GB and costs $100 to increase the limit to 80GB), 8 times the processing power, and virtually unlimited connectivity to other computing systems (without the $300 USB cable from MSUS). I'll stick another $30 firewire card in it, use the free software for basic editing like the Avio will do, put another 120GB hard drive for $123 (pricewatch.com), stick in a DVD-R burner for $238 and use either the bundled DVD software or buy Ulead Movie Factory for $50 and make even fancier little DVDs. It'll take three hours to assemble and install it all (less time than re-editing one lost project in the Avio). Total cost: $841 for a full (yet basic) video editing system with basic DVD development capability. If I really want to go all out, I could spring for another $1000 for a really high end real-time editing card from Matrox (see John Jackman's review in the current DV issue) and still have less in the system than an AvioProDV costs.
To be quite fair, this was not the case when Avio was first released years ago. But times they are achangin'!!
And you may ask, "Why do I even bother with Avio, then?" ... because I bought these tools when I needed them. I still have them. I still use them when I need to. And yes, I have paid a lot more for them that what they cost now, or what they're worth. So they're like the old Buick wagon. Am I gonna dump it while it still runs? Probably not ... I can't sell it for enough to buy another working one, and I'm too cheap to buy a new one. Am I gonna get a new paint job, top of the line tires, a new engine, new transmission, new upholstery and new stereo? Not on your life! And I won't do that for my Avios either, nor would I recommend anyone else to keep spending money on such.
Glad you asked, Steve. And don't worry ... I've taken no offense at all. I'm just glad to help explain for those stupid sons among us (nice email address and web site ... you must be the lead singer?).

X-Steve
Imported Account

Dec 21, 2002, 1:31 PM

Post #6 of 11 (2062 views)
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Re: Casablanca Avio Questions... [In reply to]	Can't Post

: Glad you asked, Steve. And don't worry ... I've taken no offense at all. I'm just glad to help explain for those stupid sons among us (nice email address and web site ... you must be the lead singer?).
that was a good one :-)
(but I am just the drummer)
And I thought this would be a Casablanca forum and not a "you would go better with a PC system forum".
There are many users (including me) who do not want to edit their videos on a PC for various reasons (I tried to edit with some Pinnacle equipment and it never really worked). So please try to accept that and we all could live a happy live here. Sorry for my bad english.
A merry Christmas to all of you.
Steve

X-Scott_Conner
Imported Account

Dec 21, 2002, 3:42 PM

Post #7 of 11 (2062 views)
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Re: Casablanca Avio ST vs Casablanca Avio DV vs Casablanca Avio DV Pro [In reply to]	Can't Post

: Hello,
: I am about to purchase a Casablanca Avio ST from www.123DV.com for $999.
: I would like to know if I should spend the extra $500 and purchase the Avio DV?
: Is it really worth it.
: I am currently using a S-VHS source.
: Any help would be appreciated.
: Thanks,
: Mike
What I wish we could do is to find a way around all of Casablancas controls like being able to access the operating system and modify thier applications to work with other add-ons.
I mean you can buy a Sony PlayStation throw a ModChip in it and play all the games you want. Somebody somewhere has to have done something similar with these Avio systems. I just wish I could find them.

X-Banned_Bob
Imported Account

Dec 21, 2002, 4:56 PM

Post #8 of 11 (2062 views)
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Re: Casablanca Avio Qs . . . [In reply to]	Can't Post

: And I thought this would be a Casablanca forum
: and not a "you would go better with a PC system forum".
Actually it's a Casablanca Forum under the Video University web site. The implication is that folks are first interested in video production, then discussions about the Casablanca under that umbrella. Again, a question was asked and an honest answer given from the point of view of video production, and not from the point of view that Casablanca is the only player in the game.
The original poster had only a YC connection, and from that I (possibly mistaken) inferred that:
1. He had either an older or a very low cost newer camera.
2. Because he asked "is it worth it?", that the $500 probably would be quite a big investment for him at this point in his career, and he wanted to best invest it.
At this point, IMHYHAO, I think spending that would be a total waste of money for him. First, he can't even use it. Second, it would be much better spent putting into the quality of a better acquisition format such as digital -- and when he does, he can still take advantage of 99.8% of the digital quality through the YC connection and not have to deal with the audio workarounds that accompany the direct-dv method. And finally, if he does start using the system to generate more money and wants more features and capabilities, he certainly would do better to shop around among other platforms when talking about spending at least another $1000 (DV connector and AvioProPack).
Hey, I really like using my Avios for what they do, but I'm certainly not going to worship them.
: There are many users (including me) who do not
: want to edit their videos on a PC for various
: reasons (I tried to edit with some Pinnacle
: equipment and it never really worked).
And me, too! You'd be hard-pressed to find anyone else in any of these forums that has bought more MacroSystem product than me (probably over $100,000 worth), and editing on them for longer than me (well into my EIGHTH year, now). Prior to that, and several times during that time, I've blown more than my share of hard-earned cash trying PC "solutions" that were useless to me. It certainly would have been nice to have been able to find someone that could have shared with me some of the information during that time, but very few open and honest forums existed. Thank God for folks like Hal that maintain this site!!!!
So if you've got another perspective on this, and you feel you can tell Mike in good conscience to go ahead and spend another $500 on the DV board, then go for it! I haven't seen anyone else do that yet. Not even MSUS President David Slone who certainly reads this forum all the time.
: So please try to accept that and we
: all could live a happy live here.
Sure. I'm so happy you'll be happy! And remember ... if my opinion is that Mike (or Jim, or Heinz, or Rainer) should save their money for something else, it doesn't lessen the fact that this product was good for you. Go for it! Enjoy it! Make $$$$ (or DM DM DM) with it!
: Sorry for my bad english.
It's not your first language?
: A merry Christmas to all of you.
And to all a good night!

X-James_Wilson
Imported Account

Dec 28, 2002, 11:30 AM

Post #9 of 11 (2062 views)
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Re: Casablanca Avio Qs . . . [In reply to]	Can't Post

: : And I thought this would be a Casablanca forum
: : and not a "you would go better with a PC system forum".
: Actually it's a Casablanca Forum under the Video University web site. The implication is that folks are first interested in video production, then discussions about the Casablanca under that umbrella. Again, a question was asked and an honest answer given from the point of view of video production, and not from the point of view that Casablanca is the only player in the game.
: The original poster had only a YC connection, and from that I (possibly mistaken) inferred that:
: 1. He had either an older or a very low cost newer camera.
: 2. Because he asked "is it worth it?", that the $500 probably would be quite a big investment for him at this point in his career, and he wanted to best invest it.
: At this point, IMHYHAO, I think spending that would be a total waste of money for him. First, he can't even use it. Second, it would be much better spent putting into the quality of a better acquisition format such as digital -- and when he does, he can still take advantage of 99.8% of the digital quality through the YC connection and not have to deal with the audio workarounds that accompany the direct-dv method. And finally, if he does start using the system to generate more money and wants more features and capabilities, he certainly would do better to shop around among other platforms when talking about spending at least another $1000 (DV connector and AvioProPack).
: Hey, I really like using my Avios for what they do, but I'm certainly not going to worship them.
: : There are many users (including me) who do not
: : want to edit their videos on a PC for various
: : reasons (I tried to edit with some Pinnacle
: : equipment and it never really worked).
: And me, too! You'd be hard-pressed to find anyone else in any of these forums that has bought more MacroSystem product than me (probably over $100,000 worth), and editing on them for longer than me (well into my EIGHTH year, now). Prior to that, and several times during that time, I've blown more than my share of hard-earned cash trying PC "solutions" that were useless to me. It certainly would have been nice to have been able to find someone that could have shared with me some of the information during that time, but very few open and honest forums existed. Thank God for folks like Hal that maintain this site!!!!
: So if you've got another perspective on this, and you feel you can tell Mike in good conscience to go ahead and spend another $500 on the DV board, then go for it! I haven't seen anyone else do that yet. Not even MSUS President David Slone who certainly reads this forum all the time.
: : So please try to accept that and we
: : all could live a happy live here.
: Sure. I'm so happy you'll be happy! And remember ... if my opinion is that Mike (or Jim, or Heinz, or Rainer) should save their money for something else, it doesn't lessen the fact that this product was good for you. Go for it! Enjoy it! Make $$$$ (or DM DM DM) with it!
: : Sorry for my bad english.
: It's not your first language?
: : A merry Christmas to all of you.
: And to all a good night!
Hey Guys,
I`ve been useing the Avio St for the last 3 years.
No problems,
No Fuss,
No Hastle,
While I admit, the price for some of the programmes is
very high, just don`t buy them.(although Pro Pack is a must for me)
As for the DV don`t bother, just put your DV footage in useing Y/C, it looks good.
After all, your still putting 500 lines into 400. And the quality looks far better than S/VHS.
I know a lot of pros useing PC based products, & not one of them
Does`nt have problems.
When the day comes that these things work (PC)properly
I will consider moving over to one.
But until then, I`ll keep editing with my Avio.
All the Best,
James.
Coombe Video Productions.

X-Joe_O
Imported Account

Jan 21, 2003, 10:36 PM

Post #10 of 11 (2065 views)
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Re: Casablanca Avio Questions... [In reply to]	Can't Post

: : Thanks to guys like Bob this forum does not
: : deserve the name "Casablanca User Forum" anymore.
: : Steve
: Is that because this forum allows users to honestly answer questions about these systems, UN-like the other MacroSystem controlled forums out there?
: The question was asked, "Is DV on the Avio worth an extra $500?" Absolutely no way! It's a $30 add-on to any other PC on the market. $500 is ridiculously inflated. I don't care if they've had to totally re-engineer the Avio box, spend $5,000,000 on software R&D and take four teams of mules and a rocket scientist to install it into the Avio. That's totally irrelevant.
: The "ease of use" advantage on the Avio is paid for by the initial charge of $999 for the unit. We shouldn't have to pay for that over and over and over again. We're looking at a subset of standard PC components in a box with a 233MHz CPU, 64MB RAM, 20 GB hard drive, standard I/O, plus a $25 C-cube video processor chip and $5 of connectors. Market value of about $250 tops. That means you're spending the other $749 for the Casablanca software. To be quite blunt, as we are dawning on 2003, that's quite an expensive software package for what it gives you. It's really not a whole lot more in capability than the software that comes bundled with a $30 firewire card at CompUSA. Once you realize that, it becomes extremely difficult to justify spending the relatively huge amounts on the hardware upgrades and software upgrades that are available.
: For comparison, a computer I bought last week cost $400 including Monitor and Printer (Avio doesn't include a monitor and you can't even print from it). It also has a 48x CD-ROM (Avio does not and cannot use one), twice the RAM (upgradable to 16x the RAM), twice the hard drive storage space with virtually unlimited maximum (stock Avio limits to 20GB and costs $100 to increase the limit to 80GB), 8 times the processing power, and virtually unlimited connectivity to other computing systems (without the $300 USB cable from MSUS). I'll stick another $30 firewire card in it, use the free software for basic editing like the Avio will do, put another 120GB hard drive for $123 (pricewatch.com), stick in a DVD-R burner for $238 and use either the bundled DVD software or buy Ulead Movie Factory for $50 and make even fancier little DVDs. It'll take three hours to assemble and install it all (less time than re-editing one lost project in the Avio). Total cost: $841 for a full (yet basic) video editing system with basic DVD development capability. If I really want to go all out, I could spring for another $1000 for a really high end real-time editing card from Matrox (see John Jackman's review in the current DV issue) and still have less in the system than an AvioProDV costs.
: To be quite fair, this was not the case when Avio was first released years ago. But times they are achangin'!!
: And you may ask, "Why do I even bother with Avio, then?" ... because I bought these tools when I needed them. I still have them. I still use them when I need to. And yes, I have paid a lot more for them that what they cost now, or what they're worth. So they're like the old Buick wagon. Am I gonna dump it while it still runs? Probably not ... I can't sell it for enough to buy another working one, and I'm too cheap to buy a new one. Am I gonna get a new paint job, top of the line tires, a new engine, new transmission, new upholstery and new stereo? Not on your life! And I won't do that for my Avios either, nor would I recommend anyone else to keep spending money on such.
: Glad you asked, Steve. And don't worry ... I've taken no offense at all. I'm just glad to help explain for those stupid sons among us (nice email address and web site ... you must be the lead singer?).
----------------------
I appreciate the honesty of this forum on pros and cons of different systems in comparison to Casablanca type systems. I am a beginner in this world of editing. Banned Bob has good options for those that want to try other systems. It is good to have options and have questions answered honestly. I also enjoy the comments on the proper use of the Casablanca system because that is the system that I have first learned my video editing education. You guys and gals are great. Keep up the good work !
signed
Joe O.

X-Mister_Keyes
Imported Account

Oct 28, 2003, 2:29 AM

Post #11 of 11 (2065 views)
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Re: Casablanca Avio Questions... [In reply to]	Can't Post

Looking for a complete system that has editing qualities of the Avio that will include a monitor, and also need a digital deck. Interested in something like the Panasonic AJ D230s. Any suggestions?