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Home: Inactive Forums: Underwater Video:
Underwater camera stability

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sailordiver
Novice

Nov 14, 2004, 12:49 PM

Post #1 of 29 (6115 views)
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Underwater camera stability	Can't Post

Hi,
I've been experimenting with ways to steady my camera (Sony PD 170 in a Gates housing) and am still experiencing too much movement. Tried weights extended out to the side to increase inertia and adding a gyro but am curious as to what others do in order to make their shots as still as possible. The off axis weights works really well for wide stuff but make the camera too wide in some cases like macro or swimming through a narrow crevice. The gyro helped stability a bit but made noise (scaring the fish) and is complicated & cumbersome with extra battery + inverter to carry around. Also it adds about 5 pounds to the camera and you must carry an extra 10lbs of battery on your BC. Any thoughts?
Thanks...
Steve

CamDiver
Novice

Nov 22, 2004, 5:27 PM

Post #2 of 29 (6020 views)
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Re: [sailordiver] Underwater camera stability [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi again,
I have seen and used the Gates with the Century optics 110 degree wide lens, VERY heavy. I use Sealux housings normally for my work. They have an interesting wing arrangement that really stabilises the system. I have spoken with the people at Gates regarding their possible development of such a wing but they're not really that interested. SO, that leaves for you to look into it. For wide shots with a WA lens you should be able to hold the camera without problems, right? In my humble opinion a certain amount of movement on wide shots gives the viewer the feeling that at least someone is there amongst the thick of the action. The Blue Planet series is a great example of this.

See my response to your last posting regarding stability. I have provided extreme macro for a number of production companies around the world including the BBC, YLE (Finland), SBS (Korea), Channel 7 (Australia) etc etc. It goes without saying that any macro stuff needs to be steady. Try doing that as an excercise with no support and you'll find that your overall image steadiness will improve. It has taken me 12 years so far to achieve certain results and I'm still learning. I work solely from underwater camera work and it can be tough. I do have the luxury of diving every day in an area of massive diversity but it still comes down to time in the water. Practice, Practice, Practice.

Cheers,
Mark.
Palau
Western Pacific
(someone's gotta live here, right?)

sailordiver
Novice

Dec 20, 2004, 12:26 PM

Post #3 of 29 (5848 views)
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Re: [CamDiver] Underwater camera stability [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Mark,
Thanks for the advice. Haven't made it to Palau yet but just returned fron a month in PNG. I'm jealous of where you live... has the coral come back yet there?
Cheers,
Steve

CamDiver
Novice

Dec 20, 2004, 5:39 PM

Post #4 of 29 (5825 views)
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Re: [sailordiver] Underwater camera stability [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi,
I have no way to guage the coral growth here having not dived extensively before the El nino problem. What I can say is that yes there are a few sites that look pretty sad but in general I have to say that there are also a lot of exquisite sites too. Shallow coral gardens with lots of healthy hard corals. There are also some walls, vertical drop offs to the abyss, that have sea fans, healthy ones, in just 10ft of water. Superb to film and play around with the sun rays as they penetrate the water. So Yeah, I think Palau is a great place to dive. The macro diversity is OUTRAGEOUS and the big stuff never fails to impress.

Best,
Mark.
Palau
Western Pacific
(someone's gotta live here, right?)

scubadru
Novice

Dec 20, 2004, 10:41 PM

Post #5 of 29 (5819 views)
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Underwater camera stability [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

Check out the stabilizer wings from Ikelite, about the only thing that's worthwhile from Ikelite. They collapse when not needed and are allow for very smooth slow pans. Again it's extra stuff to lug around and in current even in collapsed state it's extra drag.
Balancing the housing for wide is not the same as for macro. I find that for macro, smaller housings and cameras like the TRV900 are much easier to control since they have less buoyancy and mass to deal with.
But since you have a big housing (like mine) the best option is to balance it so it just barely negative/neutral and level without you touching the housing. I use marine foam and all sorts of weights(removeable) to balance my housing. Also include your lights and arms when adjusting it.

(This post was edited by scubadru on Jan 10, 2005, 5:34 AM)

rizumi
Novice

Dec 22, 2004, 4:18 PM

Post #6 of 29 (5740 views)
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Re: [scubadru] Underwater camera stability [In reply to]	Can't Post

Where did you find marine foam? I've been looking for some for a long time,
particularly the hi density type.

-Ray

scubadru
Novice

Dec 22, 2004, 4:31 PM

Post #7 of 29 (5736 views)
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Re: [rizumi] Underwater camera stability [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

Where did you find marine foam? I've been looking for some for a long time,
particularly the hi density type.

-Ray

I use Divinycell HC130. I got them while in Australia from the factory direct. They gave me all their samples and discarded leftovers, while I was ready to buy them. Worked out very well. I do know you can get them in the US from their distributor but you have to buy a big sheet which costs around $300 the last time I checked.

bubblevision
Novice

Dec 31, 2004, 12:51 AM

Post #8 of 29 (5614 views)
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Re: [sailordiver] Underwater camera stability [In reply to]	Can't Post

Sailordiver,

I've got the same Gates housing as you and I've customized it, using stainless steel jubilee clips (hose clips) to mount my L&M battery packs on the bottom of the housing and 2 home-made floats at the top. This shifts the centre of gravity toward the top, adds some inertia, and really does help stability. The L&M Sunray lights are a good match with the PD/VX Gates housing and I dive with the lights on nearly all the time, even if I'm probably not going to use them. The only downside is that the housing is a bit bigger which makes it difficult to get some shots amongst rocks and coral. The floats I made were for 119m on the Britannic. You could get away with a lighter gauge. Also you will see that I have a rubber cover (from a pipette) on the rec/pause control. I have since removed this and cut sharp slots into the side of the control to give my finger a better grip. The right grip needs a sleeve around it to lift it up so it clears the re/pause lever.

_________________________________________
Bubble Vision underwater video & marine life DVD, Phuket, Thailand
Sony VX2000, Gates housing, L&M Sunray lights
Sony Vegas

sailordiver
Novice

Dec 31, 2004, 1:27 PM

Post #9 of 29 (5593 views)
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Re: [bubblevision] Underwater camera stability [In reply to]	Can't Post

Bubblevision,
Thanks for the pics. You have done some really intelligent things to your housing, some of which I may copy. Happy New Year.
Steve

bubblevision
Novice

Jan 1, 2005, 1:10 AM

Post #10 of 29 (5564 views)
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Re: [sailordiver] Underwater camera stability [In reply to]	Can't Post

While you're at it, consider this mod to make white balancing quick and easy. The grey stuff is epoxy filler to provide a "stop" for the lever. I roughened up that part of the acrylic window to make it adhere well. I made a mould for the filler out of card taped to the clear window and built it up in 2 layers. The blue thing is just a spacer made from a plastic chisel handle. It holds the wheel control out of the way but can be taken off if needed (rarely in my case). I have white duct tape on my fins and this mod enables me to white balance on it every couple of metres depth without too much hassle. They have lasted for hundreds of dives already.

_________________________________________
Bubble Vision underwater video & marine life DVD, Phuket, Thailand
Sony VX2000, Gates housing, L&M Sunray lights
Sony Vegas

sailordiver
Novice

Jan 1, 2005, 1:57 PM

Post #11 of 29 (5552 views)
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Re: [bubblevision] Underwater camera stability [In reply to]	Can't Post

Bubblevision,
I love it... thanks again. White fins... very creative solution! Cheers & happy new year even though it was yesterday
for you.
Steve

bubblevision
Novice

Jan 1, 2005, 2:03 PM

Post #12 of 29 (5553 views)
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Re: [sailordiver] Underwater camera stability [In reply to]	Can't Post

Happy New Year to you too!

You have to persevere with the white tape. The first lot doesn't stick to well. Eventually the gum starts to take a hold on the polypropylene fin and by the 4th lot of tape it's usually lasting for a good few trips.

I'd love to buy white fins. In fact I've got an old pair of white Mares Plana Avantis but they're sized for my drysuit and too big in my wetsuit booties. I'd love to hear from anyone who knows where to get good white fins (and I don't mean the little Japanese fly swats).
_________________________________________
Bubble Vision underwater video & marine life DVD, Phuket, Thailand
Sony VX2000, Gates housing, L&M Sunray lights
Sony Vegas

rizumi
Novice

Jan 7, 2005, 4:23 PM

Post #13 of 29 (5455 views)
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Re: [sailordiver] Underwater camera stability [In reply to]	Can't Post

Yes, yes, all these gadgets and gizmos can be helpful, but why bother with them at all? With some practice you can shoot very steady footage with a hand-held housing sans gadgets - I don't do it any other way. The only mods I ever use are flotation tubes, like the ones in the picture, to get the housing close to neutral. If you're floating in blue water holding a negatively weighted housing out in front of you, you will inevitably start tilting forward, so you want the rig to be neutral.

Of course it's super important to have your own buoyancy under control. For shooting video, you want your buoyancy perfected to the point where you never have to add / remove air from the BC, regardless of depth. If you spend any amount of time fiddling with your BC, your buoyancy needs more tuning. I always carry at least one one-pound shot bag on trips for this purpose, as most operators' weights are 2 lb. or more. It's difficult to get perfectly neutral using 2 lb. weights. BTW, the newly reincarnated back-flotation BCD's that manufacturers are pushing are useless for shooting video in open water. Stick with the traditional stab jacket style. Back flotation was a bad idea before, and it still is.

Another trick, invaluable for hand-held shots, is to place the viewfinder solidly against your mask lens and hold it there with continuous pressure. This eliminates much of the shakiness that seems to be the number one fault that I see over and over in UW videographers. For commercial work, a shot with any shakiness at all is just so much wasted tape. Let's face it, shaky video is boring!

Jim Church has some good tips on this in his book "Jim Church's Essential Guide to Underwater Video".

A little work on your hand-held technique will reward you well, and you will be free to exercise your creative talents rather than fiddling with a bunch of superfluous gadgetry.

- Ray

ronrosa
Novice

Jan 8, 2005, 12:19 PM

Post #14 of 29 (5404 views)
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Re: [rizumi] Underwater camera stability [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

Yes, yes, all these gadgets and gizmos can be helpful, but why bother with them at all? With some practice you can shoot very steady footage with a hand-held housing sans gadgets - I don't do it any other way.
A little work on your hand-held technique will reward you well, and you will be free to exercise your creative talents rather than fiddling with a bunch of superfluous gadgetry.

- Ray

Ray, I've always noticed your videos are rock solid steady. You definitely have it down. But what can I do when there is surge ? I'm a small guy and even a little surge moves me around enough to notice on video.

I say photographers have it easy, us video guys have to stay dead steady for at least 10 seconds.

scubadru
Novice

Jan 10, 2005, 6:09 AM

Post #15 of 29 (5344 views)
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Re: [rizumi] Underwater camera stability [In reply to]	Can't Post

I'll have to respectfully disagree with Rizumi on BCDs. I switched to a backplate/wing configuration and found it to be easier to move in current and manuvuerability is also much better than with the traditional BCs. I think it's the harness fit that suits my lean body type more than the jacket style which have more limited fitting range. Also the small wing gives me a slimmer profile than the jacket. It works very well when I'm shooting dolphins and fast action baitballs.
I do agree that getting the housing as neutral as possible is good. Never have it positive.
Ronrosa, you can sometimes use your arms like a gyro stabilizer. It's easier to do that with an LCD monitor so you can keep your eye on the subject and make adjustments with your arms. Also bracing yourself on "DEAD" coral ONLY. A lot of stuff can be shot by tripod.

rizumi
Novice

Jan 11, 2005, 11:06 AM

Post #16 of 29 (5330 views)
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Re: [ronrosa] Underwater camera stability [In reply to]	Can't Post

Short of jamming your housing into the rocks, there's no practical way to shoot in surge and still keep the housing steady. So there are two approaches to this problem:

1) Don't bother. Come back when the seas are smooth.

2) Use the surge. I have some dramatic footage shot in a 15 foot surge at Roca Partida, but I wasn't fighting the surge. I just kept the subject framed and fired away. Of course, the subject was moving too, and the result is some very dynamic footage.

-Ray

rizumi
Novice

Jan 11, 2005, 11:19 AM

Post #17 of 29 (5329 views)
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Re: [scubadru] Underwater camera stability [In reply to]	Can't Post

Some people like the back flotation method, but I have some problems with it:

1) On the surface, the pressure on your back tends to push your face forward, into the water. Dealers suggest that moving your weights around can circumvent this, but it never worked for me. Even if it did, why waste valuable dive time fiddling with your weights? If you're forgotten by your dive boat and face several hours or more floating on the surface, you would be very unhappy with a back flotation BC; if you ditch your weights, as you would in some emergencies, the problem is even worse. Under-arm flotation, OTOH, tends to push your head straight up above the water.

2) This same problem happens when you're trying to shoot in blue water - you keep tipping forward, making it very difficult to keep a housing steady. Ankle weights can help some here, but again, why bother fiddling with weights? And, you then have some more heavy items to carry in baggage.

I have both types of BCs, and haven't seen any streamiling effect with the back-floaters. But then, I usually don't do a lot of swimming while shooting, so maybe I'm wrong here.

Ultimately it's a personal choice, but I'd recommend that people rent a back-floater to try out before buying. And spend some time on the surface with it.

-Ray

scubadru
Novice

Jan 11, 2005, 9:46 PM

Post #18 of 29 (5315 views)
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Re: [rizumi] Underwater camera stability [In reply to]	Can't Post

It is definitely an individual preference. I have none of the problems you mentioned because I balance myself with weights mostly in my front weight pockets, and 1 weight pocket on the top tank strap. Makes it easy for me to straighten up or lean forward depending on need. Minor adjustments are inevitable. Even without weights, it's very easy to put your weight back even in high swell/rough water if you have a crotch strap. I spent 3.5 hours on the surface when currents pulled us far away for the dive site with no balance problems.
2 of the big reasons why I'm a backplate advocate are:
1 Travel weight/bulk. My BP/Wing weighs under 7.5lbs while giving me 30lbs of lift. It packs easily because it breaks down to pieces, reducing bulk.
2. Fit: The harness fits me perfectly for my body shape, wide shoulders, small waist. To fit my waist with a jacket BC, I have to go one size down which usually means a shorter and narrower fit.

yhuubert
Novice

Jan 14, 2005, 1:34 PM

Post #19 of 29 (5208 views)
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Re: [rizumi] Underwater camera stability [In reply to]	Can't Post

After diving a backplate + wings for some time I would never go back to a jacket-style BCD. BP always keeps you perfectly horizontal. The harness is so comfortable and non-restrictive that you never notice that you have anything on your back. With a jacket BCD the feeling of something around your chest and sides seemed quite unnatural to me. And I have not had any problems on the surface, never understood that problem.

Also if you want to do any more advanced (technical/deep) diving BP is the preferred (if not the only) way to do it.

J�ri
Panasonic GS400 + Equinox Propak 6

bubblevision
Novice

Jan 15, 2005, 12:55 PM

Post #20 of 29 (5165 views)
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Re: [yhuubert] Underwater camera stability [In reply to]	Can't Post

I detest wings (back floatation) with a single-tank. I'm just uncomfortable all the time and get neck ache from looking up. I even find myself not bothering to go for shots that I would normally go for in a conventional BCD. I used my wings last week with a twinset for some deep dives and even with a twinset I found they held me face-down too much. So I'm selling the wings and I'll put my twinset on my Seaquest BCD next time.

The manufacturers have used the whole pseudo-teckie thing to sell a whole new range of inappropriate gear to people who don't need it. Some of the "tek" BCD's I see on our boat are ridiculous. Huge flappy buoyancy bags in silly places that just create loads of drag for the diver.
_________________________________________
Bubble Vision underwater video & marine life DVD, Phuket, Thailand
Sony VX2000, Gates housing, L&M Sunray lights
Sony Vegas

f10ab1b
New User

Jan 16, 2005, 8:50 PM

Post #21 of 29 (5132 views)
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Re: [rizumi] Underwater camera stability [In reply to]	Can't Post

Ray,
I've been following this thread with interest. I have only ever had a back flotation style BC. I am interested in trying a jacket style BC. If you don't mind sharing, which one do you use? Is it weight integrated or not? Aside from the model you use, are there any others that you would recommend? Thanks for any advice.

(This post was edited by f10ab1b on Jun 17, 2008, 2:36 AM)

rizumi
Novice

Jan 17, 2005, 3:31 PM

Post #22 of 29 (5096 views)
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Re: [f10ab1b] Underwater camera stability [In reply to]	Can't Post

I use a Seaquest Balance BCD for warm water, along with several Seaquest wetsuits. guess
you can tell I like their stuff. The Balance is wt. integrated, with the nifty new weight pocket
anti-loss buckles (that actually work!). I know sevral divers who use Seaquest BDDs, and they
all like them.

For cold water, I use an older Seaquest BCD with back bladders, simply because I already have
it and it fits over all the cold-water diving paraphernalia that we put up with up here. But, with
the murky water here, I never shoot open-water footage, so the back flotation is not a big deal.
I still hate sitting on the surface with it, though, esp. since there are lots of waves here.

I've also heard good things about Oceanic BCDs. Roger Steene, the photographer, who is really
fussy about his gear (used the same BCD for twenty years), got one to try and ended up
taking it home.

-Ray

ronrosa
Novice

Jan 17, 2005, 6:20 PM

Post #23 of 29 (5086 views)
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Re: [rizumi] Underwater camera stability [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

The Seaquest Balance is a back inflate. I thought you were against back inflate BCD's ?

I used to have a Balance. Good BCD, but it did have a tendency to push me forward. I sold it on Ebay and now use a Dive Rite Transpac. I've found the Transpac to be much more versatile. I can re-position and/or remove pockets and D rings as needed and it doesn't push me forward.

bubblevision
Novice

Jan 18, 2005, 2:15 AM

Post #24 of 29 (5063 views)
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Re: [f10ab1b] Underwater camera stability [In reply to]	Can't Post

I use the Seaquest Pro QD+. A lot of the instructors and divemasters out here use them. I got one just before the anti-weight loss buckle was introduced but I've never lost a weight pocket anyway. The only problem I had was that the pull dump wire (the one that goes through the convoluted hose) snapped, which was probably because I didn't wash it religiously enough. They give a lifetime warranty on non-serviceable parts.

If you want a basic BCD of the same quality, I recently got my girlfriend an Aqualung Wave and it's a great, no-nonsense, rugged BCD. Made by the same people as Seaquest of course.
_________________________________________
Bubble Vision underwater video & marine life DVD, Phuket, Thailand
Sony VX2000, Gates housing, L&M Sunray lights
Sony Vegas

rizumi
Novice

Jan 18, 2005, 9:40 AM

Post #25 of 29 (5046 views)
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Re: [ronrosa] Underwater camera stability [In reply to]	Can't Post

OK, so it's actually a Pro. My back-inflator is a Balance. I don't pay much attention
to model names.

Ray

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