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Home: Video University Forums: Audio For Video:
Edirol R4 Users Information

 

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Ron Priest
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Jun 16, 2007, 8:29 AM

Post #101 of 131 (1409 views)
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How can the little cheep faimly radios with 21 chennels or whatever at half the cost perform better?

Because they are transmitting a very narrow bandwidth (just to get human voice) as opposed to the RS 120/140 transmitting a wide bandwidth to cover the audible musical spectrum....does that make sense...



Yes, that makes sense.... so much so it's starting to get scary. I appreciate all your help. Joey from Sweetwater will appreciate your assistance too when calls me back Monday afternoon to discuss if I'm a happy camper or not. Which I am. thanks to your help, but I'll have to admit, I was about ready to tear down camp Friday when I started getting that dreaded HDD slow error.

I did another hour long test last night (with mics) using the 4CHx1 setting at 96 KHz and 24 Bit and it worked flawlessly as far as the capture and then import into Premiere Pro was concerned. I still have to see if the clap tests line up with the captured video. If everything still stays in complete sync even at capture settings other than the what the camera usese (48 kHz 16 Bit) then I'll be ready to find some more firewood cause I might be staying at this camp site for some time. Wink
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Mark Foley
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Jun 16, 2007, 8:47 AM

Post #102 of 131 (1405 views)
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I did another hour long test last night (with mics) using the 4CHx1 setting at 96 KHz and 24 Bit and it worked flawlessly as far as the capture and then import into Premiere Pro was concerned. I still have to see if the clap tests line up with the captured video. If everything still stays in complete sync even at capture settings other than the what the camera usese (48 kHz 16 Bit) then I'll be ready to find some more firewood cause I might be staying at this camp site for some time.


Ron, as long as your record in multiples (96) of the sampling frequency set in your NLE (48...double), you'll never have to worry about synch... It is ideally to have the highest sampling frequency you can use when recording digitally as the higher the sampling frequency, the smoother the sine wave will be...if I remember, Darin's presentation at Expo gave an excellent explanation of this....


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Mark



(This post was edited by Mark Foley on Jun 16, 2007, 8:53 AM)


Ron Priest
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Jun 16, 2007, 9:13 AM

Post #103 of 131 (1396 views)
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Ron, as long as your record in multiples (96) of the sampling frequency set in your NLE (48...double), you'll never have to worry about synch... It is ideally to have the highest sampling frequency you can use when recording digitally as the higher the sampling frequency, the smoother the sine wave will be...if I remember, Darin's presentation at Expo gave an excellent explanation of this....



Oh, Okay then, thanks! I did not realize that. I'll give Darin's presentation another listen then. So how does the Bit size setting chime in? Will 24 Bit, versus 16 Bit affect sync over a period of time since the camera's audio records at 16 Bit?
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Mark Foley
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Jun 16, 2007, 9:18 AM

Post #104 of 131 (1395 views)
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Will 24 Bit, versus 16 Bit affect sync over a period of time since the camera's audio records at 16 Bit?

Not at all...


....once again though, higher is better...in this case, more bits = more information captured/less information loss or tossed


edit...for those who are following this thread....

Bit Depth refers to the number of bits you have to capture audio. The easiest way to envision this is as a series of levels, that audio energy can be sliced at any given moment in time. With 16 bit audio, there are 65, 536 possible levels. With every bit of greater resolution, the number of levels double. By the time we get to 24 bit, we actually have 16,777,216 levels.

Sample rate is the number of times your audio is measured (sampled) per second. So what is the 96khz sample rate? It's 96,000 slices of audio sampled each second.

Bit Rate, or how much data per second is required to transmit the file, which can then be translated into how big the file is. A CD is 16bit, 44.1 so that is 44,100 slices, each having 65,536 levels. The R4 can record 96,000 slices a second at nearly 17 million levels for every slice. The Bit Rate is usually expressed in Mbit/sec.

48 mHz/16 bit = 1.35 Mbit/sec
96 mHz/24 bit = 4.39 Mbit/sec


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(This post was edited by Mark Foley on Jun 16, 2007, 9:36 AM)


Ron Priest
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Jun 16, 2007, 9:33 AM

Post #105 of 131 (1388 views)
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Great! So then, being able to advertise that I record in 96 kHz 24 bit audio surround sound should plus in my little bag of marketing tricks then? I remember Darin stating that "people get that" now days. Do you really think they do? I only "got it" after spending much time reading about it and now seeing (hearing) the difference.

It's one thing to capture in 96 KHz 24 Bit, it's another thing to claim your capturing in Surround Sound. I want to capture in "Surround Sound" or capture everything in 96/24 without charging any extra for my packages, but actually editing Surround Sound in post takes even more effort, so I want to make that an add-on option.... at leaset until It comes easier and faster in post.

Do you now capture everything with the intention to produce it in Surround Sound? My biguest concern on that playing field is: Do I have to have a Surround Sound Card to produce in Surround Sound?
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Mark Foley
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Jun 16, 2007, 9:39 AM

Post #106 of 131 (1386 views)
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Stating your record in 96kHz/24 bit may go over 99.9% of people's heads unless they have a working knowledge of audio and something to reference to.

However...stating you can deliver in Dolby Surround Sound, they may take notice....

...although some will only want to know if the camera will make their butt look big....sad but true....

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Mark Foley
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Jun 17, 2007, 6:51 AM

Post #107 of 131 (1375 views)
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Hey Ron & Michael...
I just got back from the reception (not my gig but was hired by velma to be her audio engineer Laugh). The live band was pumping a very HOT signal...the R4 just prrrrd away.... :-)

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Mark



Brackish
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Jun 17, 2007, 7:35 AM

Post #108 of 131 (1373 views)
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Brackish
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Jun 17, 2007, 7:37 AM

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Mark Foley
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Jun 17, 2007, 7:46 AM

Post #110 of 131 (1372 views)
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Quote
What's the phantom voltage on each of the
4 XLR inputs?

48+/-2V /8mA


Quote
What's the max dB gain on the inputs?


Line Level: -33 - +4dBu
Mic Level: -60 - -23dBu


Quote
How long does it run on the 8 AA batteries?

Depends on the recording settings...but typically about 2 hours. With the Tekkeon 3400 battery...probably close to 9-11 hours...




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Mark



Ron Priest
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Jun 17, 2007, 8:25 AM

Post #111 of 131 (1370 views)
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By the way, Ron ... your "clap test" sounds very similar
to a test I have described here before. Perhaps you
were inspired? Sly



Perhaps so, but I don't recall reading that post. I may very well have though. Yes, I was impressed with the test too! Made me very happy.
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Ron Priest
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Jun 17, 2007, 8:30 AM

Post #112 of 131 (1367 views)
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I haven't really been following the details on this
recorder. What's the ....

You can download the manual here:

http://www.roland.com/...0000006460&dsp=1
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Ron Priest
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Jun 17, 2007, 8:45 AM

Post #113 of 131 (1366 views)
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Hey Ron & Michael...
I just got back from the reception (not my gig but was hired by velma to be her audio engineer Laugh). The live band was pumping a very HOT signal...the R4 just prrrrd away.... :-)



Can you come and record my next gig? I'll buy you dinner!

Speaking of being hot, I guess there isn't anything you can do about it, but what do you do when the input signal is so hot that even when you turn the input knob all the way down, the sound is still coming through? And, if you pad the incoming signal to the point you can turn it all the way down, the it might not go as high as you need it?

For example, I had the outpus of my stereo amp line out (RCA record out) connected to a Rolls box with the single output going to channel 3 on the R4. Since I was connecting a mic up to the #4 imput I had to have the 3/4 input on the R4 selected to mic. In that case, the line in signal on chanel 3 was about half way up on the meeter with it's input all the way down. I could pad the output from the stereo amp via the Roles and that would take care of the static input, but now couldn't turn it up enought to max out the meter.
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Mark Foley
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Jun 17, 2007, 9:55 AM

Post #114 of 131 (1359 views)
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Speaking of being hot, I guess there isn't anything you can do about it, but what do you do when the input signal is so hot that even when you turn the input knob all the way down, the sound is still coming through? And, if you pad the incoming signal to the point you can turn it all the way down, the it might not go as high as you need it?

As long as your record the signal and it is not distorted, then you simply re-mix the channels it in post in your NLE or audio editor


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Ron Priest
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Jun 18, 2007, 10:40 AM

Post #115 of 131 (1328 views)
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Ron,
why are you recording at 48? set it for 96kHz and try it... never a problem for me...


edit...I should have stated I record in 4ChX1...can your NLE handle that type of wav file?



Hey Mark, Keith contacted me this moring, seems there is a problem wit certain R-4 within a range of specific Serial Numbers (which includes my R4): Here is a quote from Edirol:

The problem
If a recording is carried out with all the conditions below, a message “HDD slow” appears on the display and normal recording cannot continue.
- Rec Mode : MONO x 4
- Input Select : Analog
- Sampling Frequency : 44.1kHz or 48kHz
- Sampling Bit Rate : 24bit
Serial numbers affected
Please check the number printed on the bottom panel label.
If your R-4’s serial number is within the range shown below, the above problem may occur.
Z**1912 – Z**3269


The article goes on and gives you a fix. It's a software patch but apparently it may cause another problem. Here is the link to the article:

http://www.edirol.com/...d=206&Itemid=295
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Mark Foley
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Jun 18, 2007, 10:45 AM

Post #116 of 131 (1327 views)
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My serial number wasn't effected...but I was told by Edirol to go ahead and flash the update anyway :-)

I like the way Sweetwater follows up on their customers....

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Mark



Ron Priest
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Jun 18, 2007, 10:50 AM

Post #117 of 131 (1323 views)
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Do did you alreay do this update?
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Mark Foley
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Jun 18, 2007, 10:57 AM

Post #118 of 131 (1322 views)
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Yes I did right after I got it....and I forgot all about it when you mentioned the HDD slow message. Did your R4 fall into the effected serial numbers?

I still think the 4ChX1 is the way to go

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Ron Priest
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Jun 18, 2007, 11:09 AM

Post #119 of 131 (1317 views)
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Yep, mine fell within the list of S/N's

I agree with you, the 4CHx1 is the way to go!

I was wondering if you have noticed the other problem mentioned after doing the flash update?


Quote
In order to improve writing speed to the Hard Disk Drive, a 0 level data (no sound samples) will be added at the beginning of a project (156 samples if WAV format, 38 samples if BWF format). As a result, a small gap may be detected in situations of long record times where the data is ALSO divided into multiple projects. In such cases, you will likely want to delete this small gap with the wave editing function


I was quite impressed the other night when I recroded an hour long 4CHx1 file and once the file got to 2 GB It started creading a 2nd file. When piecing those individual files together on the timeline in my NLE they ware absolutely seamless! Apparently what Edirol is saying, once the flash update is accomplished there may be a gap there between the files.... surely once you delete the Gap (if created) the file is still seamless... don' you think? Have you had a chance to test this?
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(This post was edited by Ron Priest on Jun 18, 2007, 11:44 AM)


Mark Foley
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Jun 18, 2007, 11:27 AM

Post #120 of 131 (1316 views)
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Everything has been seemless for me.....

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Ron Priest
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Jul 22, 2007, 12:07 PM

Post #121 of 131 (1143 views)
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I'm going on my soapbox here a bit... Once you get comfortable with the operation of the R4, having a need to monitor during the ceremony may become significantly less. The only problem I have with monitoring audio is what do you do if you discover something is wrong and you're not in a position to do anything about it? For me it would possibly/probably upset myself enough or get me distracted where I might miss something important with the video capture. My point here is having confidence enough in your setup process (in this case setup of the R4 and possibly redundant recorders) where there is no need to monitor.

With that said however, your RS 120 idea has some great potential...and who cares if you have some drop outs or other interference...all you really want to know if things are working. I say if you already have one...use it! Of course you have to be especially careful that you're not transmitting on the church's/DJ frequency.

I actually like the idea for the reception.... unlike the ceremony where you might not be able to fix something (levels..etc) once it starts, at the reception this could really be beneficial as it could save a trip to the recorder to periodically check things throughout the night.

Good idea!!



Well I finaly got the chance to use the R4 at my wedding yesterday and I think everything came out just great! I have something like 17 GB of audio to transfer to my computer this morning. I recorded everything, from the goom taking a wizz before the ceremony to ... almost the last dance. I had the chance to record a little bit of a jaz band before the DJ took overat the reception, but didn't get to plug into the bands board, so I just set up a couple mics, one in front of the speaker, and another one catching ambient from the oppoosite side. I't not a "Mark Foley" recording, but I'm hot on your trail! Wink

I also got the chance to use my wireless headphones the Sennheiser RS 120 to monitor the line out of the R4. It worked out great! I was also close enough to the R4 which allowed me to monitor the inputs and adjust appropriately. And it was nice to not have anything else on the tripod but the camera!

I picked up a DC cord from Radio Shack which allowed me to power the Sennheiser RS 20 base via a battery versus having to plug it up, worked great. It was also nice to be able to walk around the auditorium with the headphones before the ceremony actually got started and still be able to hear what I was recording. It worked out just a good for me at the reception also!
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(This post was edited by Ron Priest on Jul 22, 2007, 12:12 PM)


Mark Foley
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Jul 22, 2007, 1:05 PM

Post #122 of 131 (1131 views)
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Using the RS 120 is a great idea...I'd like to find a used one somewhere cheap....

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Ron Priest
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Jul 22, 2007, 1:29 PM

Post #123 of 131 (1126 views)
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Using the RS 120 is a great idea...I'd like to find a used one somewhere cheap....



I'll let you know if I come across one. Here is the Radio Shack DC Cord that works for it.


Edit: Oh and here is the DC Power Plug (Tip) you would need to solder to the end of the cord.
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(This post was edited by Ron Priest on Jul 22, 2007, 1:36 PM)


Mark Foley
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Jul 24, 2007, 10:04 AM

Post #124 of 131 (1100 views)
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Ron,
Does the headphones provide much isolation ?

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Ron Priest
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Jul 24, 2007, 10:16 AM

Post #125 of 131 (1097 views)
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Ron,
Does the headphones provide much isolation ?



Well probably not as good as my Sony 7506's but they seemed to do pretty well, even at receptions. They have a flat surface. I don't know of any other wireless headsets that will beat the price right now. It's funny, they worked really good this weekend while on location at both the church and reception. Here at home as soon as I walk out of my buiding I get interference, maybe it's from the power lines overhead? I had my Sony headsets pluged into the R4 headphone jack so when I wanted to take off the wireless and doublecheck the audio directly from the R4 I could.
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