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Home: Video University Forums: Audio For Video:
Stop Being Cheap With Your Audio!

MLiebergot
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Apr 8, 2008, 7:04 AM

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Stop Being Cheap With Your Audio!	Can't Post

I posted this in response on another thread but thought that it was pertinent for all to see again.
I'm going to get up on my pulpit now and preach to the congregation...

What was posted in another post on another topic kind of holds true, "you get what you pay for".
While the Zoom recorders (H2/H4) are nice units and are versatile, and of course are inexpensive by industry standards. They will not be the best tool for every job, as some are finding out.
For a wedding, where you might find yourself using portions of audio and then resync if needed they might very well fit the bill great.
But it's going to be a bit more of a chore if you are relying on using 3 hours of footage for the likes of recitals, plays, services etc. So if you film these type of events then you may want to purchase the best unit that suits all of your needs,a nd not necessarily the cheapest.

For those who want a better quality unit, I would seriously suggest taking a step up inn price a bit, and get an Edirol R09 )(New Edirol R09HR seems great), Marantz PMD620, Tascam DR1, or even the new upcoming Edirol R-44 (which I think is suited perfectly for us). Yes they are slightly more to much more than the iRivers or Zoom recorders.
But and I'm going to scream this...STOP BEING CHEAP WITH YOUR AUDIO!

I know we all have budgets, but with everyone looking to spend big bucks on new EX1 or Z7, and then look for the cheapest way to capture audio.
Now, I'm not saying that we shouldn't invest in quality video gear, because we should, as that's what we want to do, produce great video. But video is far more than shooting with the latest and greatest camera.
But when will everyone learn.
You will find cameras come and go. You will find that you wind up owning your audio equipment much, much longer than any video camera.
Quality audio gear will hold it's value and last almost forever for most. Take a look on Ebay at how expensive some of these mics go for. There's a reason for this...they hold their value because the technology doesn't really change, as the audio process is the same.

Now there are a recent onslaught of new small recorders on the market, so there are good and bad units out there.
They all have their strengths and weaknesses, as there isn't a Holy Grail of recorders right now.
But with some careful research you can find the perfect unit that suits your needs. Ron Priest has with his Edirol R4, and doesn't even rely on camera audio at all anymore. He took the plunge and spent more on a quality piece of equipment that suited his needs and hasn't looked back.

Just put down on paper what your requirements are for recording and editing your events. Do a little research (people like myself and Mark are always glad to give some feedback and offer suggestions). And before you know it, you will go from good video, to producing some really outstanding stuff.

Michael

Cameras: (3) Sony FX1, Canon HV20
Audio: Marantz PMD620, Edirol R44, ZoomH4N, ZoomH2, Sennhesier G2
Mics: Rode NT5, Rode NT3, Rode M3, Rode NTG2, Shure SM57, AT822
Software: Sony Vegas, Final Cut Studio
Computer: MAC BABY! MacPro, MacBook Pro

(This post was edited by MLiebergot on Apr 8, 2008, 8:40 AM)

Ron Priest
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Apr 8, 2008, 8:22 AM

Post #2 of 22 (3599 views)
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Amen brother Michael!
_____________________________
Ron Priest - Louisville KY
New Website/Blog
Live StudioCam

Mark Foley
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Apr 8, 2008, 9:24 AM

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great job Michael....
_________________________
Mark

fr0gm@n
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Apr 8, 2008, 5:50 PM

Post #4 of 22 (3559 views)
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This response is meant to be "tongue in cheek"

Don't you and Mr. Foley upgrade your audio gear more frequently than most of us upgrade our video gear. Seems you had an H4, then an R09, then R04 and now an R44....whats next....the R44x2000 with 6XLR inputs, 7.1 surround sound recording with each channel being a separate 96/24 wav file, wireless transmitter so you can easily monitor on your cam, runs on a single AAA battery, records to SD media and is the size of a credit card? Seems everytime the next great thing comes along you and Mark are jumping on it like many jump on new cams. What's the difference? If audio gear lasts longer then why are you dumping it so quick. Sly

Please remember this is tongue in cheek but it sure seems you have upgraded faster than I have upgraded cams.

Laugh

Shouldn't TV's Discovery Channel be on a different station every day?

frog blog

Mark Foley
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Apr 9, 2008, 4:14 AM

Post #5 of 22 (3539 views)
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at least least the audio upgrades are cheaper than the video upgrades Sly

I may retrack that statement when I finally purchase my dream gear the Cantar X2
_________________________
Mark

Brackish
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Apr 9, 2008, 4:31 AM

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In Reply To

I may retrack that statement when I finally purchase my dream gear the Cantar X2

... until the X3 comes out. Sly

------------------------------------------------------------
"still motion is who everyone else is trying to be like"

MLiebergot
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Apr 9, 2008, 7:13 AM

Post #7 of 22 (3510 views)
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Well Phillip, I new it was only a matter of time before someone picked up on that. Wink

While this is true, as Mark said, these devices are much cheaper than new cameras.
To start with I intentionally pickup some of these units for testing purposes for you all here. I'm not joking about this either, I really do.
In other instances, I get products from manufacturers to test out. Like my recent post on the Juicedlink XLR box.
The manufacturer sought me out to test the unit against some pieces of equipment that I own. I just wish Edirol would let e test some of their units... Wink

But all in all, I use all of these recorders in my productions. It's just that certain units are better suited for certain tasks than others.

The Zoom H2 is good for quick setup and capture of musicians during a ceremony, which is what I use it most for. As well as for ambient audio capture during the reception. But I only use it for the built in mics, and don't use the external 1/8 mic or line inputs at all, as they aren't that good.

The Edirol R09 and Marantz PMD620 are great for external mic or line feeds and the on board mics aren't bad, but I prefer keeping the Zoom H2 for that purpose. So I'll use the R09/PMD620 either with a lav mic in a pocket for ceremony, on a podium for readings, or even to record additional musicians if needed.

I did have the Zoom H4 before I purchased my Edirol R4 for XLR mic use, mainly for phantom hyper card mics. And while it was great for it's built in XLR's the R4 was that much better and versatile since it gave me 4 channel recording. I use hyper card mics and the R4 in a live band or recital setups, as well as for a live audio work which I am contracted out for. I don't currently use it for ceremonies and reception work like Ron and mark do.

Since I didn't use the H4 much after the R4 purchase I sold it.
I did recently sell my R4 to finance the pre order of the R-44 which I know will be even better suited for me than the R4 was. I know the SD recording ability (no moving parts, which is the main reason that I switched), smaller form factor, longer run times, and even more versatility with setups will benefit me more. I promise, that this will be the last 4 track recorder I will purchase for a while. No really stop laughing it will be. No I mean it... Smile

I wouldn't be surprised if this becomes my go to recorder for all recording, and as such will most likely sell of another small recorder or two. I'm trying to streamline my overall setup and needs as much as possible. With the main goal on owning the best overall quality I can afford, within reason.

My main point of my original post, isn't the fact that people purchase the latest and greatest new cams, as if it makes your produce a better end product or save you time, then it's great.
But rather to be smart with your purchases on both ends. It's easy to get caught up in all of teh hype and excitement when a new product comes out. But if you are ok currently with an older camera and your audio is lacking, then do a little research and make the best investment for your overall workflow.

I have to give Rick Steele props here.
I know we give him a hard time about being so cheap. But even though he spends no money on anything, he is happy with his current crop of cameras. But has been doing research to try to upgrade his audio, which he thought could be the biggest improvement to his productions. Although he is looking for the cheapest alternative (no supprise here Wink

), he is researching to see what fits his overall needs (and has ruled out several inexpensive options), which is really my point.

We all should strive to produce the best productions that we can. That means just as much attention to both video and audio.
Now let HEAR it for audio! Wink

Michael

Cameras: (3) Sony FX1, Canon HV20
Audio: Marantz PMD620, Edirol R44, ZoomH4N, ZoomH2, Sennhesier G2
Mics: Rode NT5, Rode NT3, Rode M3, Rode NTG2, Shure SM57, AT822
Software: Sony Vegas, Final Cut Studio
Computer: MAC BABY! MacPro, MacBook Pro

fr0gm@n
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Apr 9, 2008, 8:04 AM

Post #8 of 22 (3500 views)
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Re: [MLiebergot] Stop Being Cheap With Your Audio! [In reply to]	Can't Post

Glad I was the one to catch you with the upgrade thing. The light just went on when I noticed how many new pieces you are always acquiring.

Keep in mind with many of your investments that you are a sound engineer as another side job and are called upon to handle many more audio related tasks than many of us are. We (most wedding videographers) get an occasional recital or concert but very few of them. Your needs for the top of the line equipment at these other types of work compliment what you are able to do soundwise in your videos.

Whenever I have a need for audio equipment or advice you and Mark are the first people I start asking for advice. I do appreciate the knowledge and your willlingness to test all the new stuff even when it does cost you money. It helps lots of us make the decision for the right piece of equipment.

I don't have all the bell and whistle audio gear you guys have. I work with 2 wireless, 1 H2 and 4 iRivers. My wireless go on the minister and groom, my H2 goes with the string quartet (or is placed to get the best sound I can from the organ) and the iRivers are for readers at the podium and redundant backups at the ceremony. At the reception I either pull a feed from the DJ or mic a speaker via the H2. It isn't as pristine as what you guys do but the sound is very acceptable to all but the real audiophiles. I feel it gives me a much better quality audio than most of my competition that just mic the groom and use a shotgun for ambient. That is what most people here do.

When I am presented with a situation where there is a live band at the reception or we get to do a recital I call on my biz partner from our corp business. He is more an audio geek. He doesn't have all the toys you do but he has enough to be way more dangerous than me. When I get those situations I borrow a few H4s from him or he comes along to help.

I hope you or Mark are at Video09. I have some questions about audio I want one of you guys to explain and teach me about. I want to spend a little time picking your brain.

Shouldn't TV's Discovery Channel be on a different station every day?

frog blog

Mark Foley
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Apr 9, 2008, 8:09 AM

Post #9 of 22 (3499 views)
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Quote

If audio gear lasts longer then why are you dumping it so quick

I'm using a couple of Shure SM58s that I purchased back in 1986 (when I was working part-time as a recording technician at a recording studio).
_________________________
Mark

MLiebergot
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Apr 9, 2008, 8:24 AM

Post #10 of 22 (3495 views)
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Well I was a sound engineer. I am really a wedding vidoegrapher.
That's right folks I am glad to say that I produce Wedding Cinema. Wink

I do get the occasional live bad set, not as much as Mark, but man I wish I did.
You have a good setup currently for wedding work. It's simple and will get you better audio than most. You don't have to have the best, heavens be I don't. I just look for the best affordable options out there. I am fruggle in that way for everything I buy in life. I have never bought the car/tv/stereo/computer taht I really want. Hell I could have had a 8 core MAC Pro but stepped down in price to a 2.66 Quad Core.

I just wanted to point out to people that there is no Holy Grail of sorts for anything, including audio. Different tools for each job. Just get the best tools to do the best job is all.

When I get a chance to get used to the R-44 whenever it is released, I am looking forward to trying a new setup that Ron introduced me to. That would be to place the R-44 under the podium, with a wireless feed from the groom and officiant feeding channels 1 and 2. Then place a mic on the podium for the reader in channel 3. Then place wireless butt plug in a mic and record musicians and feed that into channel 4. The entire ceremony will be recorded in perfect sync for editing. The I like Mark's setup of using the R-44 with 2 mics on the PA stack, one in the woofer and one in the tweeter, feeding into channels 1/2 and a stereo mic capturing ambient audio for a nice live mix. No sterile board feed to worry about and quick to setup.

Oh yes, I almost forgot the entire time I am recording to the R-44 I am also sending a wireless feed to my camera form the units RAC line out, to be used for sync/monitoring/backup audio. So that will be one unit to setup for all of the days recording.

Of course I still would use the small recorders for backup purposes on musicians and speakers.
Gotta have a backup plan just in case. Crazy

MLiebergot
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Apr 9, 2008, 8:34 AM

Post #11 of 22 (3490 views)
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Quote

I hope you or Mark are at Video09. I have some questions about audio I want one of you guys to explain and teach me about. I want to spend a little time picking your brain.
frog blog

Oh BTW, Steve Wernick was speaking at our BVA meeting last night and showed us teh new promo for video 09. Should be great. Just not sure if I can swing the date (which I can't say when it will be. But it will be announced next week I'm told), as me and the wife will be on vacation a couple weeks prior and not sure if we can swing another week off from work so soon after taking time off.

If we all can't go, then I may go alone again.. Crazy

As I really missed attending last year.

Michael

Cameras: (3) Sony FX1, Canon HV20
Audio: Marantz PMD620, Edirol R44, ZoomH4N, ZoomH2, Sennhesier G2
Mics: Rode NT5, Rode NT3, Rode M3, Rode NTG2, Shure SM57, AT822
Software: Sony Vegas, Final Cut Studio
Computer: MAC BABY! MacPro, MacBook Pro

fr0gm@n
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Apr 9, 2008, 8:43 AM

Post #12 of 22 (3485 views)
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Well, I'll be at Video09. Mrs. Frogman says it is required we go every year. Wink

Besides, I just uncovered a long lost friend from high school via the internet and he lives in Florida so I will get to visit with him. We were like brothers in school and he just disappeared. Long story but I will say he lived in an abusive home. There is a link with the story in the off topic forum. I am really looking forward to spending a few days with him in Florida. He works at a retirement complex and says we can golf for free so I am excited about that. Smile

My parents, and Mrs. Frogman's family also live in Ft. Lauderdale so we will build a vacation around the convention.

I hope you can make it....if not Mr. Foley will do. I think one of you guys should do a seminar on how to edit good audio. I can give you the whole syllabus of what should be covered ..... I just don't have the expertise to do it myself or I would. If neither of you can make it perhaps we could spend time on the phone and you just teach me what I need to know and I will be glad to teach one.

Shouldn't TV's Discovery Channel be on a different station every day?

frog blog

Mark Foley
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Apr 9, 2008, 8:47 AM

Post #13 of 22 (3483 views)
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what is the anticipated date/place for 09?
_________________________
Mark

MLiebergot
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Apr 9, 2008, 8:50 AM

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Re: [Mark Foley] Stop Being Cheap With Your Audio! [In reply to]	Can't Post

Sorry bro, we all promised that we wouldn't tell. All I will say is January again like usual.
It was said that it will be announced next week.

In Reply To

what is the anticipated date/place for 09?

Mark Foley
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Apr 9, 2008, 8:54 AM

Post #15 of 22 (3479 views)
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thats cool...as I was only wanting to know if it was the same month...
_________________________
Mark

fr0gm@n
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Apr 9, 2008, 8:56 AM

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I have an idea when it will be based on a conversation with Steve Wernick a few months back. He just told me what their goal was regarding dates. Nothing was final but since Mike can't say anything I won't speculate either. I will just wait patiently like you to get the dates.

Shouldn't TV's Discovery Channel be on a different station every day?

frog blog

RT Steele
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Apr 9, 2008, 10:42 AM

Post #17 of 22 (3461 views)
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Although he is looking for the cheapest alternative (no supprise here Wink

), he is researching to see what fits his overall needs (and has ruled out several inexpensive options), which is really my point.

That's true about the cheap part but as I explained... I don't do a lot of live events. It does me no good to spend $900 on something when all I'll be doing is recording crap out of a $75 pair of Radio Shack speakers. Laugh

And as I've explained, I don't believe in live mixing as it's hard to isoloate a cough, sneeze, baby crying, whatever when everything's going into one final feed. That's just me though. If I were doing live theatre or high end weddings with a harpist, 7 piece ensemble and a soloist that didn't sound like she just smoked a carton of Camel non-filters I'd be coughing up the dough for this - trust me.

Right now I'm a few days away from settling on the H2 as it seems to be the most versatile - even with the synch quirks, the 2GB stutter and the possibility it won't work that well with a lav mic. I think a lot of problems people have with this thing is they expect it to do miracles for $200 which I don't - I have a realistic perspective on this. Plus I test "anything" extensively and get to know it inside and out before I use it. Hell, the iRivers suck for anything else besides dialog IMO and we rave about those.

And I'm always reading the audio gizmo talk here and to be honest, I echo some of Phillip's comments too. I sometimes picture you guys as having deep pockets or you make your spouses work two jobs just to keep you in audio gear Sly

But really... I'm very glad you and Mark have a passion for this (and other contributors) because the little knowledge I have of the equipment available I credit to you guys exclusively. Plus I know whatever I settle on you'll help the best you can as you've done time and time again.

So thanks! And keep those wives working! Laugh

- RT

MLiebergot
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Apr 9, 2008, 10:49 AM

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Re: [RT Steele] Stop Being Cheap With Your Audio! [In reply to]	Can't Post

Rick just so you know we all work. I have teh two jobs of Graphic deisgner and video, the wife has one job, and now I have decided to put our little 3.5 month daughter to work and earn her keep. Wink

Seriously though the H2 should serve you good, even with a lav mic, as it works fine. As I've said before you are really going to like using it for it's built in mics. Also besides the sync issue with the H2, make sure that you set your external pre's correct L/M/H. The reason being that if your audio is too hot, then it won't clip like you would expect, but develop a constant and annoying chipping sound in the audio. If your levels and pres are correct then it will sound great.

Michael

Cameras: (3) Sony FX1, Canon HV20
Audio: Marantz PMD620, Edirol R44, ZoomH4N, ZoomH2, Sennhesier G2
Mics: Rode NT5, Rode NT3, Rode M3, Rode NTG2, Shure SM57, AT822
Software: Sony Vegas, Final Cut Studio
Computer: MAC BABY! MacPro, MacBook Pro

Brackish
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Apr 9, 2008, 5:30 PM

Post #19 of 22 (3431 views)
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In Reply To

To start with I intentionally pickup some of these units for testing purposes for you all here. I'm not joking about this either, I really do.

You know, I've heard some good things about the Sony D50 recorder. I wonder how that compares to the PMD620. Wink

------------------------------------------------------------
"still motion is who everyone else is trying to be like"

MLiebergot
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Apr 9, 2008, 5:49 PM

Post #20 of 22 (3421 views)
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He he he, nice try. Not gonna do it.
The R-44 will be my last audio recorder for a while.
Unless I need another small unit for some reason. Wink

In Reply To

To start with I intentionally pickup some of these units for testing purposes for you all here. I'm not joking about this either, I really do.

You know, I've heard some good things about the Sony D50 recorder. I wonder how that compares to the PMD620. Wink

Brackish
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Apr 9, 2008, 6:59 PM

Post #21 of 22 (3407 views)
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In Reply To

He he he, nice try. Not gonna do it.
The R-44 will be my last audio recorder for a while.
Unless I need another small unit for some reason.

That's cool. I totally understand.

It's just that I had heard the Sony D50 had a lower noise floor
than your PMD620 and that the D50 sounded a lot like its
much-more-expensive big brother, the Sony D1:

Oh well. No problem. At some point we all have to say "what I
have is 'good enough' ". Sly

------------------------------------------------------------
"still motion is who everyone else is trying to be like"

MLiebergot
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Apr 10, 2008, 6:31 AM

Post #22 of 22 (3347 views)
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Re: [Brackish] Stop Being Cheap With Your Audio! [In reply to]	Can't Post

Yeah I have heard the same thing. But what I have is good enough right now. And the addition of the R-44 will be better than a D50. Smile

I also like th fact that the mic capsules are rotatable on the D50.

In Reply To

He he he, nice try. Not gonna do it.
The R-44 will be my last audio recorder for a while.
Unless I need another small unit for some reason.

Oh well. No problem. At some point we all have to say "what I
have is 'good enough' ". Sly