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Home: Video University Forums: Audio For Video:
What is wrong with the mini Digtal Recorders?

xangel
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Dec 6, 2007, 6:47 AM

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What is wrong with the mini Digtal Recorders?	Can't Post

I am throwing this question out here because I haven't seen it discussed anywhere else...so here goes.

I know the advantages of having an Roland - Edirol or Zoom type system as alternative ways of getting sound, I unfortunately do not have $400 to drop on a couple of them (which would be $800)

But what would be the issue with using an input mic with some of the smaller, and less expensive digital recorders?

I understand that I could pickup some I-Rivers on Ebay, but those are usually sold as is... and I depise waiting for online orders, especially if I don't what I am going to get. And they also seem to be getting more and more rare.

So I was think abot something I can hold in my hand at the time of purchase, test it out, and if it sounds like crap, return it. Of Course, the "testing" would come before I take a risk on it at an event. Like maybe test it out on my priest by wiring it to the pulpit at a Sunday Mass one day, and then review it in comparision to what I have been doing which has been using my laptop computer, which is flaky in reliability at best. (Actually, I wouldn't have to wired it to the pulpit, since I can tap directly into the mic feed where the sound system is, which is what I would do with my laptop when I recorded his sermons)

I jsut wanted to throw this out here, I am pretty sure that Mark and others will have some pretty good advice.

Remember.. I am not made of money here, and I am running into more venues where I cannot jack into the system for one reason or another, so when things like readings and singing happen, all I get is nat. sound...which sounds like crap... and I think this would at least give me a temp solution until I go "big time" with the other sound systems.

Any advice/info ... I thank you for in advance.

X-Angel aka Eric

"Ignorance is the most expensive commodity we have."

Mark Foley
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Dec 6, 2007, 6:54 AM

Post #2 of 17 (3278 views)
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Re: [xangel] What is wrong with the mini Digtal Recorders? [In reply to]	Can't Post

The problem with many of the other digital recorders is their very low bit rate/mp3 compression recording parameters. However, with that said, there is nothing wrong with what you propose...trying them out and returning them if they are not up to your expectations. If all your currently getting is nat sound recorded from a distance, then even a very low bit rate recording at close range maybe an improvement.

Pretty good rule of thumb in most cases with audio... a $5 dollar microphone at 5 feet from subject will sound exponetially better than a $500 mic at 50 feet from the same source....
_________________________
Mark

xangel
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Dec 6, 2007, 7:19 AM

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In Reply To

I had a feeling that it had to do with bit rate/compression. I cannot find any specs on the mini-recorders I have been looking at... so do you have an idea what the BR/Comp settings are on these things?

Also...I read another one of your posts about internal clock issues in syncing.. do you think this would be an issue as well?

Thanks Mark.

X-Angel aka Eric

"Ignorance is the most expensive commodity we have."

xangel
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Dec 6, 2007, 7:20 AM

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nm... found one stat:
HQ Recording Mode - 16kHz (19.2Kbps): Up to 7 Hour 20 Minutes Recording Time (One of the sonys)

Damn... that is pretty low...

X-Angel aka Eric

"Ignorance is the most expensive commodity we have."

Mark Foley
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Dec 6, 2007, 7:39 AM

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sync issue will be here and then some unfortunately....

(this is not directed at you Eric...but all who maybe lurking) Going on my soapbox here.... Instead of trying to go with the cheapest route on audio, I would suggest looking at other avenues to save...do we really need the biggest/baddest computer to edit with? spends hundreds on fish eye lens that will only be used for a few seconds in final at most...etc...are you following me here? You're not alone as many here balk at anything over a few hundred dollars for audio-related products... I just don't get it...

Audio is as important if not more than the video itself...it is what separates us from the photogs...we should try to get the very best and find other means to save money....

...off my soapbox Sly

_________________________
Mark

(This post was edited by Mark Foley on Dec 6, 2007, 7:45 AM)

xangel
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Dec 6, 2007, 7:53 AM

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In Reply To

(this is not directed at you Eric...but all who maybe lurking) Going on my soapbox here.... Instead of trying to go with the cheapest route on audio, I would suggest looking at other avenues to save...

No worries. I do know I will eventually get to the point of buying one of the "big boy toys," this would be a temp solution to get me out of an endless circle: I need the gigs to get the cash to get the big boy toys, but I won't get more gigs if I am having audio problems or the audio sounds like CRAP. See my conundrum?!?! Sly

Did a little deeper research:
Olympus WS-210: Stereo XQ Mode: 44.1 kHz, 8 hours, 50 minutes in WMA - $99 (MSRP)
Olympus WS-110: HQ Mode: 44.1kHz, 17 hours 35 minutes in WMA - $79 (MSRP)
Olympus WS-100: HQ mode: 44.0kHz, 4 hour, 20 minutes in WMA - $79 (MSRP)

Only thing they don't state is what the bitrate is.

X-Angel aka Eric

"Ignorance is the most expensive commodity we have."

(This post was edited by xangel on Dec 6, 2007, 7:54 AM)

Mark Foley
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Dec 6, 2007, 7:56 AM

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Olympus typically makes some good stuff...but it may be best to try them out for yourself and see what happens....
_________________________
Mark

xangel
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Dec 6, 2007, 8:06 AM

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I will probably try it this Saturday. Even though I have drill (my last one!!!), I still have to go to Mass on Saturday for the Feast of the Immaculate Conception (I try to be a good Catholic boy Cool

)

I can pick one of these up, and link it to the mic input that I usually would put my laptop, and go from there. I would usually record via my laptop at 44.1, and at 128 Kbps. So the only question here will be what the bitrate is with this. I am better probably no better than 64 if I am lucky. (thats porbably a stretch in and of itself)

In addition, I will try and get video of the sermon so I can test sync. My priest is usually "long in the tooth" (In a good way), so I should get plenty to just test with.. I won't be overly concerned with video quality... just testing the sync..so I can break out my little Panny GS120, and kill two birds with one stone.

X-Angel aka Eric

"Ignorance is the most expensive commodity we have."

(This post was edited by xangel on Dec 6, 2007, 8:09 AM)

xangel
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Dec 6, 2007, 8:16 AM

Post #9 of 17 (3254 views)
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Re: [xangel] What is wrong with the mini Digtal Recorders? [In reply to]	Can't Post

If this little calculator I downloaded is right.

4 hrs 20 minutes @ 44.0 Khz, with a maximum filesize of 65536 KB (64MBs) = 33 Kbps or so.
Same bit rate for the 17 hr one as well.

Mark..that sound right to you?

X-Angel aka Eric

"Ignorance is the most expensive commodity we have."

(This post was edited by xangel on Dec 6, 2007, 8:21 AM)

Timothy Harry
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Dec 6, 2007, 9:32 AM

Post #10 of 17 (3249 views)
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I like you prefer to jack into the system at my home church. I know the sound guy and he does an awesome job. With that being said, unless my sound guy from church is at the event running the board, I refuse to jack into anyone else's board anymore. It just creates big problems in post with bad levels, and I cannot slap the sound guy in the middle of a wedding if he screws it up, leaving me to whatever I have on the camera mics......which usually sucks because it is a camera mic. I dont use the iRivers, I currently use 2 sennheiser wireless systems. I have a 500 series G2 (freakin love it but I am about to sell it because its in the 700mhz spectrum) and a 100 G2 that is in the 600mhz spectrum. They are rock solid as wireless devices, but many people prefer the security of a cord. In a big city I might feel the same way, but out here in hickville USA, it works fine for me. FOr starting out an iRiver might work very well for you... you cant beat the price for one either (around 85 bucks a mic with a giant squid lav.) If i was just starting out I believe that is where I would start and build from there. It isnt that they have huge problems or their audio is horrible, it is just kind of a pain to work with as it is MP3 and tends to drift a bit. I understand that even some of the higher end recorders drift a little bit too, so it is really just the nature of the beast and with a low price comes less features.

edit:

you might want to check Northern Sound and Light out for pro audio gear. I got a hell of a deal on my sennheisers from them (northernsound.net) You will have to call them for prices as they are too low to have their prices in print, but to put it in perspective I got a $2000-$2500 mic for ~$930. It also dropped shipped directly from sennheiser, so its not gray market or too hot to handle.

Tim Harry

Dallas, TX

(This post was edited by Timothy Harry on Dec 6, 2007, 9:42 AM)

MLiebergot
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Dec 6, 2007, 9:53 AM

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Eric for capturing vocal audio (speeches etc.) the Olympus should be alright for you. I know a couple of peple who use it for this purpose and they are happy with it.

But if you are capturing instrumentals and loud audio, then these might not be the best choice, as there will be quite a bit of compression going on and the sound won't be as full sounding, so to speak.

If you are real tight on money, then I would suggest you look into picking up (1) Zoom H2 (for vocal or instrumental) and (1) Olympus recorder (for speech only).

The H2 can be foud for around $179-$199, and will enable you to record via an external mic or line in feed (plugged into the 1/8 mic or line port). or even better you can just run it without an external mic (which it was really designed for) adn use the built in (4) mic elements. You can record from the front (at 90 degrees) rear (at 120 degrees) or through both front and rear of unit via (2 or 4 channel) mic recording. You can record up to uncompressed 24/96 (or 16-48 same as your camera) WAV files to removable SD card media (up to 8GB SDHC card). Do a search on these forums and look up the specs and feedback on the unit. It's mostly very favorable for what most will use this unit for. And a few gripes from those who are much more selective on their audio.

Overall it's great to see you looking for alternatives for audio capture. Just remember that finding a cheap solution now, may not be teh best course of action for the future.

Michael

Cameras: (3) Sony FX1, Canon HV20
Audio: Marantz PMD620, Edirol R44, ZoomH4N, ZoomH2, Sennhesier G2
Mics: Rode NT5, Rode NT3, Rode M3, Rode NTG2, Shure SM57, AT822
Software: Sony Vegas, Final Cut Studio
Computer: MAC BABY! MacPro, MacBook Pro

MLiebergot
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Dec 6, 2007, 9:54 AM

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AMEN, brother Mark.
AMEN. Angelic

Michael

Cameras: (3) Sony FX1, Canon HV20
Audio: Marantz PMD620, Edirol R44, ZoomH4N, ZoomH2, Sennhesier G2
Mics: Rode NT5, Rode NT3, Rode M3, Rode NTG2, Shure SM57, AT822
Software: Sony Vegas, Final Cut Studio
Computer: MAC BABY! MacPro, MacBook Pro

Mark Foley
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Dec 6, 2007, 9:59 AM

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Hi Michael...how is the soon-to-be daddy?

Speaking of audio ...hehe Have you heard the Bose SoundDock system? I just picked one up to use with my portable DVD player for client interviews...this things sounds unbelievable.... ...but for the price it should....
_________________________
Mark

MLiebergot
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Dec 6, 2007, 10:31 AM

Post #14 of 17 (3230 views)
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In Reply To

Things are going great, and busy.
The baby is due to be here in about a month, and my wife has alrady had 2 baby showers with another one to go next week. the furniture arrives tomorrow,a dn thank God, as we have the room prepped and emptied out ready for the furniture. But all of the clothes and baby stuff is piled into the spare bathroom. Man that's a lot of stuff.

As for the Bose system, I haven't ahd a chance to see on yet.
But with it being Bose, it's got to be good. Wink

xangel
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Dec 6, 2007, 10:32 AM

Post #15 of 17 (3227 views)
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Re: [MLiebergot] What is wrong with the mini Digtal Recorders? [In reply to]	Can't Post

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(1) Olympus recorder (for speech only).

This was what I was primarily going to get it for since - as I mentioned - I sometimes run into issues with jacking in. Music would be an entirely different issue for the reasons that you mentioned.

One mystery to me is "the drift"...anyone know why it happens?

X-Angel aka Eric

"Ignorance is the most expensive commodity we have."

(This post was edited by xangel on Dec 6, 2007, 10:32 AM)

MLiebergot
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Dec 6, 2007, 10:42 AM

Post #16 of 17 (3220 views)
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In Reply To

(1) Olympus recorder (for speech only).

The drift, simply means that when you re using two different sources of audio (either recorded at differnt bit rates or from differnt recorders, like audio recoder and camera audio), after you have found accurate sync points and synced up your audio sources in your timeline, over a certain period of time the audio sources will start to drift apart and lose sync.

this can be caused by one of two things...
1. Your audio was recorded at 2 different formats or rate of speed.
2. Audio is from different souces (ie. different audio recoders or video recorders) and each manufacturer will use a different clock speed with their crystals.

This can be corrected in post, by making sure to convert teh slower clip to the faster bit rate, and then stretch out the slower audio clip to match the faster one (sometimes change speed to be 100.3 or such). Although the audio might start to drift again over time.

The only real way to make sure that your video and external audio is in sync, is to make sure that your audio is at least at the same bit rate (your external audio can be higher) and then slave your audio to your video, via hard wired connection. Although this still might not retain perfect sync, as again the clock will most liely be different.

Weather cheaper or more expensive units, usually won't matter. As most units won't hold sync. So some re-syning of audio will still need to be done.

Michael

Cameras: (3) Sony FX1, Canon HV20
Audio: Marantz PMD620, Edirol R44, ZoomH4N, ZoomH2, Sennhesier G2
Mics: Rode NT5, Rode NT3, Rode M3, Rode NTG2, Shure SM57, AT822
Software: Sony Vegas, Final Cut Studio
Computer: MAC BABY! MacPro, MacBook Pro

xangel
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Dec 6, 2007, 11:33 AM

Post #17 of 17 (3214 views)
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I kinda noticed this one of my wedding becuase I exported the wav from the raw video at 128 Kbs, 48000. And when I went into Premiere, I notice that it was off just by a hair.

When I looked raw audio, it was 128Kbs, @ 48009. An odd sample to be sure, but thats what it was. So I made sure to keep it at that...

This may also be a solution for another problem I am having... I will look at it when I get to the house (@ the FTJ right now.)

X-Angel aka Eric

"Ignorance is the most expensive commodity we have."

(This post was edited by xangel on Dec 6, 2007, 11:35 AM)