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Home: Video University Forums: Audio For Video:
Zoom H2, H4 or Edirol 09?

 
 


RT Steele
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Nov 2, 2007, 8:50 AM

Post #1 of 23 (3549 views)
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Zoom H2, H4 or Edirol 09? Can't Post
Ok peeps... I'm wondering if the Zoom H2 is out for me. They sound like a no-brainer for iRiver replacement and I will consider them for dialog if I ever need to replace my wireless units because of the FCC crap but that's way down the road.

What appeals to me though is the multitrack capabilities of these (and similar units).

Here's what I want to do with either the H2, H4 or Edirol... feed one external mic from the PA stack (e604) and also use the built in capsules from the unit to record to a seperate tracks. I don't want any mixing. Is this possible? if so, does each track have its own delimitter circuitry?

I can get two H2's for the price of the Edirol R9 but no XLR inputs on the H2 which I can live with.

My goal is to get all this audo crap off my camera at the reception. Synching tracks up in post is no big deal for me and that audio time lag folks have been reporting isn't a problem either (Although a potential pain in the ass I suppose).

And the Edirol R4 is too pricey.

- RT


MLiebergot
Veteran


Nov 2, 2007, 9:09 AM

Post #2 of 23 (3546 views)
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Re: [RT Steele] Zoom H2, H4 or Edirol 09? [In reply to] Can't Post
In Reply To
Ok peeps... I'm wondering if the Zoom H2 is out for me. They sound like a no-brainer for iRiver replacement and I will consider them for dialog if I ever need to replace my wireless units because of the FCC crap but that's way down the road.

What appeals to me though is the multitrack capabilities of these (and similar units).

Here's what I want to do with either the H2, H4 or Edirol... feed one external mic from the PA stack (e604) and also use the built in capsules from the unit to record to a seperate tracks. I don't want any mixing. Is this possible? if so, does each track have its own delimitter circuitry?

I can get two H2's for the price of the Edirol R9 but no XLR inputs on the H2 which I can live with.

My goal is to get all this audo crap off my camera at the reception. Synching tracks up in post is no big deal for me and that audio time lag folks have been reporting isn't a problem either (Although a potential pain in the ass I suppose).

And the Edirol R4 is too pricey.

- RT
Rick, sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but it will be a no go with any recorder on the market today to use external mic or line feed and built in mics together.
the circuitry isn't wired properly. Once you plug an external feed into the mic or line input, then the circuit is disconnected to the internal mics.

this goes for the great Edirol R4 as well.

I would suggest either picking up a Zoom H4 and use both external XLR ports (which can be controlled independantly), and feed mic or line signals into each.
Picup a few H2's and use internal mics and use in post as desired.

or drop the bones on an edirol R4 and run 4 feeds into the recorder.

EDIT: BTW, I love the Edirol R09 over all of the units mentioned, but it will cost you the most, as you would need multiple units for your setup requirements.

Michael

Cameras: (3) Sony FX1, Canon HV20
Audio: Marantz PMD620, Edirol R44, ZoomH4N, ZoomH2, Sennhesier G2
Mics: Rode NT5, Rode NT3, Rode M3, Rode NTG2, Shure SM57, AT822
Software: Sony Vegas, Final Cut Studio
Computer: MAC BABY! MacPro, MacBook Pro

(This post was edited by MLiebergot on Nov 2, 2007, 9:11 AM)


Mark Foley
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Nov 2, 2007, 11:00 AM

Post #3 of 23 (3538 views)
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Re: [RT Steele] Zoom H2, H4 or Edirol 09? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote
And the Edirol R4 is too pricey
If you ever used one, I'll gaurentee you'd change your tune. Of all the equipment I've ever bought getting into this business, it is by far, with no equal, the best investment I've ever made. period.

_________________________
Mark






Mark Foley
Veteran


Nov 3, 2007, 1:10 AM

Post #4 of 23 (3509 views)
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Re: [RT Steele] Zoom H2, H4 or Edirol 09? [In reply to] Can't Post
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And the Edirol R4 is too pricey
RT,
I've found the perfect small recorder for you....

http://www.libermansound.com/...o.php?products_id=79

_________________________
Mark






RT Steele
Veteran


Nov 3, 2007, 8:02 AM

Post #5 of 23 (3501 views)
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Re: [Mark Foley] Zoom H2, H4 or Edirol 09? [In reply to] Can't Post
RT,
I've found the perfect small recorder for you....

Smartass. You can buy a small house around here for the cost of that thing.

This is more within my budget Laugh



Seriously, an $1100+ Edirol is not only pricey, but overkill for my wedding venues. And there's only so much audio that can come out of my client's 4 inch speakers built into their vintage Everex TV circa 1986. Laugh

My goal is getting all recording off camera and less tweaking in post. I can picture using an H2 to record the DJ's speaker using an e604 (mainly for toasts) but would also like something to replace my onboard cam ambient audio.

Where do you guys position one of these units at a reception with no live band? (Just a DJ). The only safe place for me would be right between his speakers but that may be back too far.

- RT


MLiebergot
Veteran


Nov 3, 2007, 8:37 AM

Post #6 of 23 (3499 views)
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Re: [RT Steele] Zoom H2, H4 or Edirol 09? [In reply to] Can't Post
"My goal is getting all recording off camera and less tweaking in post. I can picture using an H2 to record the DJ's speaker using an e604 (mainly for toasts) but would also like something to replace my onboard cam ambient audio."

Rick, if you purchase and use the H2 for live micing, then don't even bother using the E604, as it won't be necessary.
Just use the built in mics (4 of em), set recorder to 2 or 4 channels mic mode (you can now record from both sides of the mic), set your external gain to L (low), and set audio record levels to at least 100 (106 seems to be good sweet spot for me).
The H2 was really designed to be a mic recorder. Hell you can record through both sides of the mic, which will give you more recoding capabilities that you can never do with just one E604 or any affordable mic.

Yes you have the ability to record external mic or line in, but while teh H2 will do a very acceptable job for this, there are better recorders out there for that if you ask me. But for quick, excellent audio setup and capture, the H2 will be best when utilized just as a 5.1 surround mic recorder. And at only $199, the best value in it's class at that.


Michael

Cameras: (3) Sony FX1, Canon HV20
Audio: Marantz PMD620, Edirol R44, ZoomH4N, ZoomH2, Sennhesier G2
Mics: Rode NT5, Rode NT3, Rode M3, Rode NTG2, Shure SM57, AT822
Software: Sony Vegas, Final Cut Studio
Computer: MAC BABY! MacPro, MacBook Pro


RT Steele
Veteran


Nov 3, 2007, 9:02 AM

Post #7 of 23 (3497 views)
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Re: [MLiebergot] Zoom H2, H4 or Edirol 09? [In reply to] Can't Post
set your external gain to L (low), and set audio record levels to at least 100 (106 seems to be good sweet spot for me).

So the AGC on the H2 is good enough to use the onboard mics at point blank speaker range? I would think the sound compresson would clip it for sure.

If this thing needs to be back more than 12 inches that won't work for me as that'll put it on the dance floor.

- RT


MLiebergot
Veteran


Nov 3, 2007, 9:10 AM

Post #8 of 23 (3496 views)
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Re: [RT Steele] Zoom H2, H4 or Edirol 09? [In reply to] Can't Post
Rick, I use the described setup in my previous thread, and haven't had any problems. In a very loud environment the L gain setting works very well, and you shouldn't notice much if any clipping. You just have to remember to have your record levels set to at least "100" as that will be after the pre amps and give you a cleaner/quieter signal.

I place my H2 on a mic stand slightly off to the side (right or left), about 6'-10' inches away, in between the woofer and tweeter on the stack. You could always boom the H2 over or under the PA stack if you wanted to keep your mic stand off of the dance floor.



In Reply To
set your external gain to L (low), and set audio record levels to at least 100 (106 seems to be good sweet spot for me).

So the AGC on the H2 is good enough to use the onboard mics at point blank speaker range? I would think the sound compresson would clip it for sure.

If this thing needs to be back more than 12 inches that won't work for me as that'll put it on the dance floor.

- RT
Michael

Cameras: (3) Sony FX1, Canon HV20
Audio: Marantz PMD620, Edirol R44, ZoomH4N, ZoomH2, Sennhesier G2
Mics: Rode NT5, Rode NT3, Rode M3, Rode NTG2, Shure SM57, AT822
Software: Sony Vegas, Final Cut Studio
Computer: MAC BABY! MacPro, MacBook Pro


RT Steele
Veteran


Nov 3, 2007, 9:56 AM

Post #9 of 23 (3492 views)
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Re: [MLiebergot] Zoom H2, H4 or Edirol 09? [In reply to] Can't Post
I place my H2 on a mic stand slightly off to the side (right or left), about 6'-10' inches away, in between the woofer and tweeter on the stack.
That's very helpful.

Tell me though... if placed off to the side where does the front of the H2 face? Toward the DJ? At a right angle to the speaker or toward the dance floor?

- RT


Mark Foley
Veteran


Nov 3, 2007, 10:21 AM

Post #10 of 23 (3491 views)
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Re: [RT Steele] Zoom H2, H4 or Edirol 09? [In reply to] Can't Post
Quote

Where do you guys position one of these units at a reception with no live band?
Quote
but overkill for my wedding venues
If I was only doing wedding video...maybe. However, I also do live local concerts and I need the flexibility of a higher end recorder. I'm still amazed though at the thought process of many wedding videographers. They'll spend thousands of dollars on cameras and yet want to take the cheapest route on audio. I believe there is way too little emphasis on audio and IMO, it is the single most distinctive feature that separates us from photographers.

Unlike video cameras that have a certain shelf-life, a quality recorder will last for years....







_________________________
Mark






RT Steele
Veteran


Nov 3, 2007, 11:58 AM

Post #11 of 23 (3487 views)
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Re: [Mark Foley] Zoom H2, H4 or Edirol 09? [In reply to] Can't Post
I'm still amazed though at the thought process of many wedding videographers. They'll spend thousands of dollars on cameras and yet want to take the cheapest route on audio.

Well, if I were doing other things regularly I'd be on that bandwagon too.

But in my case, one has to look at the source of the sound to begin with. You can't make something sound good if it isn't there to start with. Very seldom do I have freaking harps, trumpet duos and flutes along with opera quality soloists. It's usually some church hag on a cheap Wurlizter with Aunt Cloe on the vocals croaking out a bad version of Ave Maria. I once had an organist with one arm. Laugh (He was actually pretty good but that's another story). And most other times, the ceremony music is just a ripped CD of tunes.

Then it's off to the reception. I think I've done a total of 3 live bands and each time everybody was wishing they'd have hired a DJ instead. Laugh I've fought enough sound board taps to know it's not reliable and that's no big deal because whatever the DJ can get so can I - it's just extra work I'd like to eliminate. I barely have enough time to mic the PA stack much less run various feeds to and fro.

"Dialog" is my primary target. (And backups of the backups with that dialog) Uncle Charlie just can't do it. I'll never skimp on that.

- RT


MLiebergot
Veteran


Nov 3, 2007, 2:55 PM

Post #12 of 23 (3476 views)
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Re: [RT Steele] Zoom H2, H4 or Edirol 09? [In reply to] Can't Post
It doesn't really matter which side (front/back) the mic from the H2 is facing.
The reason is because I record in 2CH Stereo (mic config) mode. This enables me to record 90 degrees from the front mics and 120 degrees from the rear mics.
If it really mattered, I prefer front mics facing the PA stack ad the rear mics facing the dance floor.

BTW I place the H2 at a slight right angle facing into the PA stack. Thatway the rear mics face towards the dance floor.

In Reply To
I place my H2 on a mic stand slightly off to the side (right or left), about 6'-10' inches away, in between the woofer and tweeter on the stack.
That's very helpful.

Tell me though... if placed off to the side where does the front of the H2 face? Toward the DJ? At a right angle to the speaker or toward the dance floor?

- RT
Michael

Cameras: (3) Sony FX1, Canon HV20
Audio: Marantz PMD620, Edirol R44, ZoomH4N, ZoomH2, Sennhesier G2
Mics: Rode NT5, Rode NT3, Rode M3, Rode NTG2, Shure SM57, AT822
Software: Sony Vegas, Final Cut Studio
Computer: MAC BABY! MacPro, MacBook Pro


Mark Foley
Veteran


Nov 4, 2007, 4:51 AM

Post #13 of 23 (3451 views)
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Re: [RT Steele] Zoom H2, H4 or Edirol 09? [In reply to] Can't Post
One important item you must be aware of the H2, once you reach 2gb on the recording, it will start a new file...however, there will be a few seconds lost in the recording. You'll have to be aware of the recording times you have set (based on recording parameters) and manually stop/start the recorder throughout the night before it reaches the 2gb brickwall
_________________________
Mark






RT Steele
Veteran


Nov 4, 2007, 6:17 AM

Post #14 of 23 (3448 views)
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Re: [Mark Foley] Zoom H2, H4 or Edirol 09? [In reply to] Can't Post
One important item you must be aware of the H2, once you reach 2gb on the recording,

Yeah, I read that up the line somewhere. I also know that swapping out SD cards will also cause the H2 to lose the settings. Does the H4 store its settings on the SD card as well?

And as always... thanks Michael and Mark for your tutelage.

- RT


MLiebergot
Veteran


Nov 4, 2007, 8:45 AM

Post #15 of 23 (3441 views)
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Re: [RT Steele] Zoom H2, H4 or Edirol 09? [In reply to] Can't Post
Rick, yes the H2 stores the settings on the SD card and not the on board memory.
So realistically, you could have several SD cards, all with the same settings and have no worry of difference in files.

Just so you know, you can use 4GB SDHC cards with confidence, as well as 8GB Transcend SDHC cards.

In Reply To
One important item you must be aware of the H2, once you reach 2gb on the recording,

Yeah, I read that up the line somewhere. I also know that swapping out SD cards will also cause the H2 to lose the settings. Does the H4 store its settings on the SD card as well?

And as always... thanks Michael and Mark for your tutelage.

- RT
Michael

Cameras: (3) Sony FX1, Canon HV20
Audio: Marantz PMD620, Edirol R44, ZoomH4N, ZoomH2, Sennhesier G2
Mics: Rode NT5, Rode NT3, Rode M3, Rode NTG2, Shure SM57, AT822
Software: Sony Vegas, Final Cut Studio
Computer: MAC BABY! MacPro, MacBook Pro


Tim A
User

Nov 5, 2007, 1:08 PM

Post #16 of 23 (3390 views)
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Re: [RT Steele] Zoom H2, H4 or Edirol 09? [In reply to] Can't Post
I think you will like the H2 for it's simplicity. I used mine for the first time this weekend. I placed it on a mike stand dead center, right in front of the stage. Two of the stand legs went under the stage so only one stuck out on the dance floor but I guess it went untouched all night. My thoughts were to set the H2 up first and when and if I had time I would then set the 604 and Rode M3 up also.....split to an iriver. As it turned out, I had time to get everything setup, 604 by the drums on the right, M3 off stage on the left, but I'll tell you....the H2 recording sounds better than any live band recording I've ever done....keep in mind, my recordings haven't been very good. Usually just the 604 placed in front on the stack. I may mix the iriver recording in with the H2 if it sounds better.....may need some help from Mark and Michael on the best way to do it though.

__________________________________________________________________



(This post was edited by Tim A on Nov 5, 2007, 1:14 PM)


RT Steele
Veteran


Nov 5, 2007, 6:24 PM

Post #17 of 23 (3375 views)
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Re: [Tim A] Zoom H2, H4 or Edirol 09? [In reply to] Can't Post
keep in mind, my recordings haven't been very good. Usually just the 604 placed in front on the stack.
Same here. But I normally just use this for the toasts. The rest of my audio is usually from the onboard cam mic.



I may mix the iriver recording in with the H2 if it sounds better.....
I also split an iRiver off the e604 but very seldom do I get anything useful from it. It's just a last ditch backup for me. (Which has come in handy once).


Glad to hear the H2 worked for you.

- RT


Mark Foley
Veteran


Nov 6, 2007, 9:58 AM

Post #18 of 23 (3346 views)
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Re: [Tim A] Zoom H2, H4 or Edirol 09? [In reply to] Can't Post
What NLE/audio editor do you use?
_________________________
Mark






Tim A
User

Nov 6, 2007, 11:46 AM

Post #19 of 23 (3340 views)
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Re: [Mark Foley] Zoom H2, H4 or Edirol 09? [In reply to] Can't Post
Vegas Pro 8/Goldwave

__________________________________________________________________



Mark Foley
Veteran


Nov 6, 2007, 11:54 AM

Post #20 of 23 (3338 views)
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Re: [Tim A] Zoom H2, H4 or Edirol 09? [In reply to] Can't Post
Sinse you use vegas...it is a snap...just add the tracks. In fact, add several (duplicate) the tracks to sweeten the mix. You'd be surprised how robust the final audio edit will sound as you start adding dupe tracks....
_________________________
Mark






Tim A
User

Nov 6, 2007, 12:30 PM

Post #21 of 23 (3337 views)
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Re: [Mark Foley] Zoom H2, H4 or Edirol 09? [In reply to] Can't Post
For the mono recordings (604/M3) should the track be set for both channels or..... 604 set to LH and M3 set to RH?

I know it's hard to answer this question without hearing the recording but....are there any filters that should be used on most recordings to give a better sound?

__________________________________________________________________



Mark Foley
Veteran


Nov 6, 2007, 12:50 PM

Post #22 of 23 (3334 views)
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Re: [Tim A] Zoom H2, H4 or Edirol 09? [In reply to] Can't Post
have three or four or more tracks with mono...and to add some depth add another track or five with this plugin
http://www.voxengo.com/product/stereotouch/

this takes a mono stream and generates a stereo stream....
_________________________
Mark






MLiebergot
Veteran


Nov 6, 2007, 1:01 PM

Post #23 of 23 (3332 views)
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Re: [Tim A] Zoom H2, H4 or Edirol 09? [In reply to] Can't Post
"are there any filters that should be used on most recordings to give a better sound?"

My most used filters are compressors in SondForge. You can get a much more robust sound by compressing your audio files, by bringing up the low end adn the mids or reverse.


Michael

Cameras: (3) Sony FX1, Canon HV20
Audio: Marantz PMD620, Edirol R44, ZoomH4N, ZoomH2, Sennhesier G2
Mics: Rode NT5, Rode NT3, Rode M3, Rode NTG2, Shure SM57, AT822
Software: Sony Vegas, Final Cut Studio
Computer: MAC BABY! MacPro, MacBook Pro