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Home: Video University Forums: Audio For Video:
Zoom H2 setting suggestions - shoot me now!

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Scott Brooks
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Mar 30, 2008, 9:10 PM

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Zoom H2 setting suggestions - shoot me now!	Can't Post

First of all let me say that I will be testing levels on Tuesday prior to taping the show, but since it's going to be very hard to physically get where I need to be while the rehearsal is going on, I thought I would get some starting points and work from there.

This is a high school musical and the stage will be approximately 30 to 40 feet wide. I have two mic stands and H2 units that will sit on the floor with the H2s raised approximately 6 to 8 inches higher than the stage. I figured each one would be 1/3 of the way in on stage right and the same on stage left.

90 degree settings or 120 degrees? With actors spread all over the stage ... which would you set your mics at? I was thinking I might need to set them at 120 degrees to cover the entire stage. Does that sound logical?

I'm somewhat assuming that I need to tilt the mics back a bit so they are angled up towards the performers as opposed just being straight (angled at 90 degrees). Is that correct?

Since the mics are going between the stage and the orchestra my plan was to only record on the stage side ... figuring the orchestra would be plenty loud even though the mics were directed at the actors. Sound correct?

Should I set it on Concert setting or leave it completely off? With the orchestra on the back side of the mics I thought maybe nothing would be needed.

And then the last part is deleting the files. Should I be reformatting (as I do my digital files on my camera) or just drag and drop the audio files (not the folders) to the trash.

Thanks for the help.

Scott

(This post was edited by Sparky on Apr 2, 2008, 12:01 AM)

Mark Foley
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Mar 31, 2008, 2:48 AM

Post #2 of 27 (2110 views)
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Re: [Sparky] Zoom H2 setting suggestions [In reply to]	Can't Post

First off, I've never used the H2 in this manner...so any feedback will be from perceived knowledge of the H2 and my own experiences....with that said:
thumbs up for going to the rehearsal. I know many on here for the wedding gigs don't do rehearsals, but for critical audio capture even with the relatively simple setup you'll be using, the rehearsal will give you valuable information. If anyone tells you to forget the rehearsal, they are dead wrong....

I've done way to many audio-centered gigs and sound checks are priority one...period

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I was thinking I might need to set them at 120 degrees to cover the entire stage. Does that sound logical?

Yes...when using a mic in this fashion to capture a broad area and somewhat at a distance from the sound source, you want the induction angle as wide as possibe to cut down/reduce/eliminate out of phase sound

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I'm somewhat assuming that I need to tilt the mics back a bit so they are angled up towards the performers as opposed just being straight (angled at 90 degrees). Is that correct?

I' mot sure this is all that critical and the only way to verify is to test at the rehearsal...however, this will probably not matter all that much given the perceived distance from the sound source to the point in space where the recorder will be placed.

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Since the mics are going between the stage and the orchestra my plan was to only record on the stage side ... figuring the orchestra would be plenty loud even though the mics were directed at the actors. Sound correct?

Yes...once again, I would, if you can, experiment at the rehearsal and see....

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Should I set it on Concert setting or leave it completely off? With the orchestra on the back side of the mics I thought maybe nothing would be needed.

I've never used this setting as I never had to record in this fashion, I would probably leave this off....

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And then the last part is deleting the files. Should I be reformatting (as I do my digital files on my camera) or just drag and drop the audio files (not the folders) to the trash.

With flash cards, since there are no physical moving parts (and nothing to wear out doing this), you should always reformat to remove any fragmentation

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Mark

MLiebergot
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Mar 31, 2008, 9:05 AM

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Re: [Sparky] Zoom H2 setting suggestions [In reply to]	Can't Post

Scott Mark gave you most of the answers that i would have.
One suggestion though and that would be to record the orchestra and stage performers.
I might recommend setting one of the recorders (closets to the orchestra) to at least 2 channel recording, with the rear mic element (120 degrees) facing the stage and the front mic element (0 degrees) recording the orchestra. The reason for this is that if you are only recording at 120 degrees then you might not get a good recording of the orchestra since it's behind you.

Honestly, if possible I would recommend micing the orchestra up separately somehow. Either with another recorder or via wireless to one of your cameras. Then mix everything in post. Just make sure that you are recording at least at the same speed as your tape (16/24 WAV), which I recommend anyway.

Michael

Cameras: I do use them.
Audio: Yes, it does come with audio if you like.
Software: I am learning...
Support: I need all that i can get.
Computer: MAC BABY!

Scott Brooks
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Mar 31, 2008, 10:31 AM

Post #4 of 27 (2090 views)
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Re: [MLiebergot] Zoom H2 setting suggestions [In reply to]	Can't Post

Mark and Michael ... thank you for the suggestions.

Honestly, if possible I would recommend micing the orchestra up separately somehow. Either with another recorder or via wireless to one of your cameras. Then mix everything in post. Just make sure that you are recording at least at the same speed as your tape (16/24 WAV), which I recommend anyway.

Taping with a Sony PD-150. I thought the H2s needed to be 48/16. Is that incorrect?

I'm also taking a line from the board as well as setting up a shotgun mic next to me. I'm hoping I'm somewhat covered.

If by some chance I can only get an RCA feed (this is in general, not just this week) ... is that considered to be a line out or mic level out?

Just saw Mark's post about the two gig limit. Is there simply a break in the audio or does it completely stop? This is a potential problem.

Thanks -

Scott

(This post was edited by Sparky on Mar 31, 2008, 10:33 AM)

Mark Foley
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Mar 31, 2008, 10:51 AM

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It will have a break...how long do you think the program will run?

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Mark

Mark Foley
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Mar 31, 2008, 11:03 AM

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I believe with the H2 and a 2Gb card you can get 1 hour 53 minutes with 48Hz/24 bit which would be preferable over 48/16 (more bits=better reproduction of a audio sine wave)

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Mark

Scott Brooks
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Mar 31, 2008, 11:15 AM

Post #7 of 27 (2083 views)
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In Reply To

I believe with the H2 and a 2Gb card you can get 1 hour 53 minutes with 48Hz/24 bit which would be preferable over 48/16 (more bits=better reproduction of a audio sine wave)

First of all I have a 4 gig card in each unit. I'm guessing the first act could easily be 80 to ninety minutes long. Second act about 45 minutes.

I might be able to squeeze in between the chairs and shut them off during intermission for about 6 minutes, but I'll need to get back to the camera before the orchestra returns.

Can I assume that once they've been turned off that it resets (not the internal settings) and the two gig file starts over.

It looks like it can record for 3hr 51min. if just using two mics. If using 4 channels it drops to 3hr 11min.

So if I leave them on the entire time ... do they stop ... or is there a dropout while it starts a new file?

Oh yeah ... wanted to catch this one as well. If by some chance I can only get an RCA feed (this is in general, not just this week) ... is that considered to be a line out or mic level out?

(This post was edited by Sparky on Mar 31, 2008, 11:17 AM)

MLiebergot
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Mar 31, 2008, 11:22 AM

Post #8 of 27 (2076 views)
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Re: [Sparky] Zoom H2 setting suggestions [In reply to]	Can't Post

Scott you are correct about the audio levels, i always get that wrong for some reason, as it is 16/48.

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I'm also taking a line from the board as well as setting up a shotgun mic next to me. I'm hoping I'm somewhat covered.

That should be ok. If you are getting a board feed, I would be more concerned about getting a recording of the orchestra somehow, as you will be getting vocals from the board, correct?

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If by some chance I can only get an RCA feed (this is in general, not just this week) ... is that considered to be a line out or mic level out?

9 put of 10 times this feed will be a "Line Out" feed.

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Just saw Mark's post about the two gig limit. Is there simply a break in the audio or does it completely stop? This is a potential problem.

The H2 wont' stop completely, but there will be a slight break in the audio from one file to another. As the H2 won't do what is called a seamless split.

Michael

Cameras: I do use them.
Audio: Yes, it does come with audio if you like.
Software: I am learning...
Support: I need all that i can get.
Computer: MAC BABY!

Mark Foley
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Mar 31, 2008, 11:23 AM

Post #9 of 27 (2075 views)
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It will start a new file with about 2-3 second loss of recorded material. Should only take you a minute or so to stop and start the recorders between the acts....

If you're getting a feed from the board, it will be line-out voltage

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Mark

Scott Brooks
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Mar 31, 2008, 11:34 AM

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Re: [MLiebergot] Zoom H2 setting suggestions [In reply to]	Can't Post

Ok then ... moved the settings back to 48/16 and I've now got darned near 6 hours of recording time. I think I'm covered there.

The only other thing that I can think of at this point is the mic gain.

I was considering leaving it at mid level setting. However, if I was recording in 4 channel it would obviously be a hotter signal coming from the orchestra side of the mics. By orchestra we're probably talking about 15 kids.

The recording level I planned on leaving at set at 100.

I know I should find out a lot of this tomorrow night. I'm just trying to get it as close as possible and not have to reinvent anything.

Thanks -

Scott

Mark Foley
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Mar 31, 2008, 11:56 AM

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Remember, 16 bit will not be of same quality as 24 bit.... Always try to go 24 bit...quiet passages will be less likely struggling to stay above the noise floor on on the H2 which needs all the help it can get. One can record with no compression. You can record at lower levels, with more headroom. This ensures that the occasional peak is not truncated at the top. Because you are not pushing the limits of your bandwidth, your instruments and vocal will sound clearer/cleaner with less noise.

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Mark

(This post was edited by Mark Foley on Mar 31, 2008, 12:03 PM)

Scott Brooks
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Mar 31, 2008, 12:03 PM

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Remember, 16 bit will not be of same quality as 24 bit....

With 4 gigs I have enough time even if were recording in 4 channels.

I know I'm going to have to watch for sync issues anyway, but I thought if it was set to the same as the camera, 48/16, that it would stay closer to the tape. Is this an incorrect assumption? If it wouldn't make any difference then I'll change it to 48/24.

Mark Foley
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Mar 31, 2008, 12:09 PM

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The only way two devices will stay in sync if they are slaved to each other with timecode generator in the master. Be prepared, the H2 is not known to have a stable clock...so to say it may drift maybe an understatement.... but for sub 200 dollars, what can you expect....

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Mark

Scott Brooks
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Mar 31, 2008, 12:11 PM

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But should one setting stay closer than the other ... theoretically speaking?

I know about drift ... but I still liked my iRiver. Cool

Mark Foley
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Mar 31, 2008, 12:25 PM

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But should one setting stay closer than the other

Yes...to the sample rate (48khz)...always go with the highest bit depth (24bit) you can squeeze onto the card

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Mark

Scott Brooks
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Mar 31, 2008, 12:35 PM

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Re: [Mark Foley] Zoom H2 setting suggestions [In reply to]	Can't Post

Thanks for your time and patience. I'm looking forward to trying these out. Could be that I'll be back late tomorrow night with a question, but I'm feeling a bit better about it right now.

I'm also taking my nNovia for its first workout as well, so lots of new equipment. Of course I'll still be running tape, taking a feed and have a shotgun ... just like all my older productions. If nothing works then it's no worse than it was before today.

Mark Foley
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Apr 1, 2008, 6:30 AM

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Be sure to let us all know how things went....

...some folks here think I'm some kind of audio whiz...not so, I just screwed up enough projects to have an extensive database to learn from my mistakes :-)

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Mark

Scott Brooks
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Apr 2, 2008, 12:09 AM

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Wow ... this is what rehearsals are for.

I'm in the process of downloading my four channel audio from one mic. I should have gone with just the back ... but anyway ...

I've never been there before and it's an hour away. Small Catholic school with a cafetorium. Stage isn't all that high ... mics on a stands still look a little higher than what I would like, but no one is worried.

I look around to see where the orchestra is going to be located ... can't find them. An old friend is directing the show and she knows that I'm experimenting a bit. I ask her if she's using an orchestra or canned music. It's an orchestra ... they're in the "orchestra closet."

I kid you not ... they are in the back of the room in a storage closet. They have a stereo mic above them and the sound coming over the speakers.

I'm getting a feed from the sound guy, but it's a mixed feed. I don't think I dare take one of the actors only the way this is set up. As it is he forgets to turn on the orchestra feed from time to time and you hear music coming from the closet.

I really have nothing to say as this isn't the test I was hoping for. I'll just tape it and hope for the best.

MLiebergot
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Apr 2, 2008, 9:26 AM

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Is there any way that yu can record the orchestra in the closet separately.
A spare iRiver (I don't believe I said this Crazy

) or recorder laying around?

Michael

Cameras: I do use them.
Audio: Yes, it does come with audio if you like.
Software: I am learning...
Support: I need all that i can get.
Computer: MAC BABY!

Scott Brooks
Veteran

Apr 2, 2008, 9:45 AM

Post #20 of 27 (1948 views)
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Re: [MLiebergot] Zoom H2 setting suggestions - shoot me now! [In reply to]	Can't Post

I probably could, but I probably won't. The chance of me getting my settings right with the iRiver and GS are probably slim.

I thought about trying to run a wireless back there, but it would have to be with a lav. Plus, that takes away my shotgun mic which actually isn't that bad in the smaller room.

I might change the mic pattern tomorrow and set them at 90 degrees and I'm going to bump up the recording level to about 115 or 120 and see what happens. Set at 120 degrees I tried to cover too much of the stage and the dialog came mostly from curtain to curtain even though the chorus used the extensions.

I haven't digitized any video yet so I don't know how bad the drift is going to get. I hope to get to that this afternoon.

I'm sure I'll be back although if I post a video clip it'll probably be in the member only section.

Scott Brooks
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Apr 2, 2008, 4:30 PM

Post #21 of 27 (1936 views)
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I've been working with the footage and the audio today. I recorded in 48/24 and the drift is really bad ... much worse than the iRiver. I'll change it to 48/16 and see if that makes any kind of difference, but it's way out after 5 to 8 minutes. That would be a lot of editing. Unsure

If this doesn't work then I'm probably going to have to look for other solutions to my live event audio. Maybe there's just no way around hauling around a snake, but that's a boat-load of work in a very small market. Pirate

Oh yeah ... at least one operator error ... somehow set the gain to low on one mic instead of medium. DUH!

Scott Brooks
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Apr 2, 2008, 4:47 PM

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Re: [MLiebergot] Zoom H2 setting suggestions - shoot me now! [In reply to]	Can't Post

Another update as to the possible problem I had regarding sync. (And this more than likely is the culprit.)

I had read earlier that the settings are in the SD cards. If that's the case ... how do you save them in the card?

I'm sure that what I did was get all my settings where I wanted them, set the mics up in the stands and turned them off because it was going to be another hour before they began. When it was time I only turned them on and did not look at the settings.

In working with them here today I reset the settings and it looks like each time I turn it off it reverts back to 44.1/16 or something. I'm sure this is what the problem was ... no doubt in my mind.

So ... is there a way to shut them off and keep the settings? Since during the musical I would need to turn them off (if I wanted to avoid the 2 second drop) I would have to worry about the settings again. BTW ... that applies to the recording level as well.

MLiebergot
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Apr 2, 2008, 4:56 PM

Post #23 of 27 (1930 views)
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I thought that all of your settings were saved on each SD card. So the only time you would worry about your SD settings would be if yo swapped in a new card.
There might be something in the settings to save your current setting, but I think that the settings are saved to the card when you set it.

Michael

Cameras: I do use them.
Audio: Yes, it does come with audio if you like.
Software: I am learning...
Support: I need all that i can get.
Computer: MAC BABY!

Scott Brooks
Veteran

Apr 2, 2008, 5:05 PM

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That's what I thought, but it's not happening. I've tried it a couple of ways. I've tried formatting the card, making my settings and then powering down. Turn it on and my settings are gone.

I've tried making my new settings, powering down, turn it on ... old settings.

I've tried making my new settings, formating but then it goes to old settings.

I have to think I'm overlooking something here.

ETA: It looks like it's happening on a single unit, so my guess is that I'm more than likely going in a wrong progression. I'll figure it out.

And as for tomorrow and Friday ... I'm just going to let them run through intermission. I've got a feed and a shotgun, so it's not worth the hassle.

I think I'm done with them for today.

(This post was edited by Sparky on Apr 2, 2008, 5:18 PM)

Brackish
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Apr 2, 2008, 5:32 PM

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Another update as to the possible problem I had regarding sync. (And this more than likely is the culprit.)

In working with them here today I reset the settings and it looks like each time I turn it off it reverts back to 44.1/16 or something. I'm sure this is what the problem was ... no doubt in my mind.

I don't have an H2 but, generally, when working with audio recorders, I have never found that the settings of the recording (i.e. 44/16, 48/16, 48/24) affect the sync at all. Sync seems to be determined by the recorder's crystal and 44/16 versus 48/16 has no effect on the timing.

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