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Home: Video University Forums: Audio For Video:
syncing is easy.....errrrr.... Tell me how

Tim A
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Oct 6, 2009, 9:02 AM

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I’ve been having pretty good luck capturing the audio at the ceremony from the board using an iriver (when the guy controlling the board doesn’t screw it up), this is good for vocals only. So I also use either the H2 or M3 mic/iriver or both to capture the piano/organ. The problem is syncing all this together. On the Vegas timeline I go into the audio event properties and select classic to stretch. I the keep changing the new length until the waveforms match perfectly with one another. The vocals always sound good but the piano sounds out of tune. No matter how slightly I move the audio event, they never sound right.

__________________________________________________________________

Kenneth
Veteran

Oct 6, 2009, 11:27 AM

Post #2 of 24 (342 views)
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Re: [Tim A] syncing is easy.....errrrr.... Tell me how [In reply to]	Can't Post

When you slow a clip down you are lowering the pitch and when you speed it up you are raising the pitch. Most good audio software has a way to change the pitch without changing the speed. If you can't do it right n Vegas you may need to do it in another audio app.
......................................................................
Philadelphia Wedding Video
The Kenneth Stillman Blog
Same Day Edit

Brackish
Veteran

Oct 6, 2009, 12:25 PM

Post #3 of 24 (335 views)
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Re: [Tim A] syncing is easy.....errrrr.... Tell me how [In reply to]	Can't Post

Tim,

You have to go in there and try out the different "Stretch Attributes".
It's a dropdown box of about 20 different ones like A01, A02, A03, etc.
Try each one for the piece and then pick the one that makes it sound
the most natural (i.e. as if it hadn't been stretched).

About this "maintain pitch" thing ... The end results are close but often
not perfect. The hope is that maybe you can tell the difference (after
hearing the stretched and non-stretched side-by-side) but the client
cannot.

I'm assuming what you're doing is for social events work where you
can get away with doing a stretch because the listeners don't
have the critical ear on it. On the other hand, Tim, if this were a video
for a musical performance (like orchestra, piano recital, etc.) where
your clients have a trained and critical ear, the "maintain pitch" does
not work well enough to pull it off; in that case you would just have
to not do a stretch and edit the video around the audio.

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Tim A
User

Oct 6, 2009, 12:53 PM

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Re: [Brackish] syncing is easy.....errrrr.... Tell me how [In reply to]	Can't Post

You are so right. I have been pulling it off until a few months ago. The father of the groom was a musician with a very trained ear. The prelude was like a concert. The church guy controlling the board made a big mess out of switching the mics so the board recording was useless. So I mixed the H2 recording with the M3/iriver recording. The father complained that it sounded like the piano was out of tune and he new it wasn't because he tuned it himself. I new I was in trouble when he told me that. I ended up doing it over, using only one audio recording at a time, he was satisfied. But I would like to be able to mix different sources together to make one nice sounding audio file.

__________________________________________________________________

MLiebergot
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Oct 6, 2009, 1:47 PM

Post #5 of 24 (327 views)
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Re: [Tim A] syncing is easy.....errrrr.... Tell me how [In reply to]	Can't Post

Tim if you are recording that many live musical events, then I woudl recommend moving up in your audio gear.
Drop the iRiver, and only use it for vocal (vows and such), and use your H2 and pickup at the least the new Zoom H4n.

The problem you are experiencing with your timing is two fold, one if that the internal clock (aka crystals) are not good quality and such your audio is more prone to drift. Second you are not recording at the same sample rate you are recoding video at. This is generally due to devices such as the iRiver and it's mp3 and 44kHz record rate.

While the Zoom H2 has decent crystal, not the best, some units, such as the one I own holds sync fine with video.
Now the new Zoom H4n has much better pre amps and better crystals and circuitry. Wth the H4n you can record to two internal 1/4 TRS/ XLR inputs as well as the internal (rotatable 90/120) mics. You can use the onboard mics and the XLRs or 1/8 input at the same time and record 4-channels of audio. This can be individual mics or even board feeds. It's very well built (much better than H2 or the previous H4), has very good manual controls, can record anywhere from mp3 audio to 48/96 WAV audio to SD cards.

The unit itself holds sync very well for long periods of time. Mince can hold sync for about 60 minutes before I experience some drift.
Now I mention the H4n being the least of a purchase as there are better more expensive units out there, such as the Edirol R44 which I also own and highly recommend. The R44 is a true 4 track SD recorder with great pre amps and controls. But it's considerably more than the H4n.

There are many very good recorders out on the market and the two I mentioned are only the tip of the iceberg, so to speak.
Either way for the future it might be a good idea to upgrade your audio gear as it should pay for itself in no time and outlast most if not all the cameras you will own.

Michael

Cameras: (3) Sony FX1, Canon HV20
Audio: Marantz PMD620, Edirol R44, ZoomH4N, ZoomH2, Sennhesier G2
Mics: Rode NT5, Rode NT3, Rode M3, Rode NTG2, Shure SM57, AT822
Software: Sony Vegas, Final Cut Studio
Computer: MAC BABY! MacPro, MacBook Pro

Mark Foley
Veteran

Oct 6, 2009, 2:54 PM

Post #6 of 24 (320 views)
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Re: [Tim A] syncing is easy.....errrrr.... Tell me how [In reply to]	Can't Post

Quit doing any of the stretching crap...(sorry). Pick one reference track and use it to sync all the others to. By that I mean watch for an individual track to lose sync with the reference track...go back some on the timeline...find a blank/no/low audio spot and make a cut and simply nudge the remaining length track back to sync... (you may have to do this a few/multiple times...but always leave the reference track alone.

Yes it is can be time consuming and having better audio recorders can lessen this. However, I have some of the best recording equipment money can buy (now a Cantar-X2) and I still have to to the nudge things every so often....

Hang in there Tim...once you get the process down, it becomes much easier on the next audio editing sessions...
_________________________
Mark

WARNING: Excessive consumption of alcohol leads to memory loss. Worse yet....it leads to memory loss.

(This post was edited by Mark Foley on Oct 7, 2009, 1:00 AM)

Tim A
User

Oct 7, 2009, 6:15 AM

Post #7 of 24 (288 views)
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Re: [MLiebergot] syncing is easy.....errrrr.... Tell me how [In reply to]	Can't Post

Thanks Michael, I have actually been researching info on the H2n. I'm just no sure how I would use it. I can't imagine strecting xlr cables across the altar. Most of the ceremony's we do the vocalist sing from the podium in front of the quire loft. The piano will be on one side of the loft and organ on the other. I want to make sure this is something I will use and have time to setup and take down. We (my wife and I) are always rushed to get out of the church and get to the reception.

I have three irivers, did habve four but one was stolen last week, two keep perfect sync with the FX1000's, one doesn't. The H2 get's out of sync about 2 minutes in, PITA.

Just so you know, I have 1 Rhode M3, 1 drum mic can't remember which one and 1 Rhode video mic which is useless at loud receptions.

__________________________________________________________________

Tim A
User

Oct 7, 2009, 6:19 AM

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Re: [Mark Foley] syncing is easy.....errrrr.... Tell me how [In reply to]	Can't Post

Thanks Mark, I have donr that in the past cut and nudge, strecting was quicker, so, I strected. But the quality of the audio suffered. I will go back to cut and nudge.

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MLiebergot
Veteran

Oct 7, 2009, 7:48 AM

Post #9 of 24 (283 views)
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Re: [Tim A] syncing is easy.....errrrr.... Tell me how [In reply to]	Can't Post

Tim, sorry for the long post.
The H4n is very easy to use.
As I said you can use the dual XLR mics or the stereo 1/8 mini plug on the back of the unit, along with the built in stereo mics for 4 channel recording.
All of these inputs are adjustable in stereo pairs. So you adjust the built in mics and dual XLR inputs separately if desired.

If you wanted to use the H4n the way you mentioned you could place the H4n in front of your most desirable source say a choir or organ. The run a XLR cable to the piano and place the mic inside of the piano. As for the solicit you would have to eitehr use a separate audio recorder, or if you ahve wireless available you could run a wireless miced feed from the vocalist to the H4n.

I have used 2 wireless feeds being fed into the H4n, as I don't like running long cables myself, and then used the onboard mics to record at a certain location, like vocals. I have 3 wireless units and two of them have plug in transmitters so I can use any mic I want for wireless recording purposes.

But in may instances I use several recorders to get my feeds and don't rely on onboard camera mics or onboard audio for my edit.
So for a service I would use one recorder on musicians (usually strings and piano in these parts, who are placed together not all over the place) which would most likely be either the Zoom H2 in 2 channel of 4 channel record mode. Or, possibly use use the H4n and onbaord mics for vocalist and either a pair of Rode M3's, Rode NT5's (48v phantom), or Shure SM57's for recording musicians.

Then another small recorder (usually Marantz PMD620) on the lectern for readings.
Wireless woudl be on groom for vows etc.
For receptions I now use the H4n exclusively, and mount everything on one mic stand.
1. Zoom H4n attached on top of mic stand facing out towards crowd to get ambient crowd reaction.
2. Shure SM57 on mic stand clamp micing PA stack woofer into XLR 1
3. Shure SM57 on mic stand clamp micing PA stack tweeter (if there is one) into XLR 2
4. Rode M3 and plug in transmitter clamped on mic stand sending reference backup audio to my camera.
Sometimes I might decide to send a reference signal directly out of the H4n to my camera. This way I can monitor what is being recorded to the unit and correct any issues, so I don't have surprises in post.

All in all I use my recorders for most of my audio in the edit, and edit the way that Mark mentioned earlier. I have no need for extra long portions of audio, as I breakup the ceremony into sections anyway and then use portions of audio for the rest of the edit, building the audio first and then the video second, so sync isn't really much of an issue for me except for spoken word. I don't edit short form as my videos are 1 hour in total length, but I do use time shifting techniques, real time video, and a lot of audio layering in the edit, especially the reception. I use all actual event audio for the entire edit, very little if any CD music is required.

So my edit goes something like this...
One song used for opening establishing shots, prep, and processional.
Then if any music was played for the processional I sue this as a base track, underscore, for the ceremony. Solos sung will be used to compress time, usually candle lighting, communion, presentation of gifts and such, and maybe blessing of the marriage form the officiant mixed into it.

Then vows with music underneath, and then when the couple kisses a new song is cued up and starts when the couple kisses.
This song is used for some picture, cocktail hour, reception establishing shots, leading into the intros. Then the rest of the edit is even easier as main dances are int heir entirety with complimentary clips mixed in.
One song is used to compress bouquet, garter, and toss, and full songs are used to create dance montages to show as many guests as possible (2-3 fast, 1-2 slow). One song is used for a recap highlight at the end of the piece.

Now this isn't always set in stone, but my blueprint for a wedding edit. And using as much natural audio as possible helps things along nicely. After all they selected the music, which is my playlist. But that doesn't mean that the music and audio has to be used in the exact way it was used.

But this is why sync isn't a huge thing for me as except for spoken word on screen it's not necessary.

Michael

Cameras: (3) Sony FX1, Canon HV20
Audio: Marantz PMD620, Edirol R44, ZoomH4N, ZoomH2, Sennhesier G2
Mics: Rode NT5, Rode NT3, Rode M3, Rode NTG2, Shure SM57, AT822
Software: Sony Vegas, Final Cut Studio
Computer: MAC BABY! MacPro, MacBook Pro

(This post was edited by MLiebergot on Oct 7, 2009, 7:59 AM)

Edward
Veteran

Oct 7, 2009, 8:28 AM

Post #10 of 24 (281 views)
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Re: [Kenneth] syncing is easy.....errrrr.... Tell me how [In reply to]	Can't Post

Quote

If you can't do it right n Vegas you may need to do it in another audio app.

You do realize Vegas 1 was an audio multi-track editor. Video was added in Vegas 2 (which sold as two versions: Vegas Video and Vegas Audio). I'd wager Vegas has more audio power than ANY other NLE out there.

Edward Troxel
JETDV Scripts & Newsletters @ www.jetdv.com

Kenneth
Veteran

Oct 7, 2009, 8:32 AM

Post #11 of 24 (278 views)
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Re: [Edward] syncing is easy.....errrrr.... Tell me how [In reply to]	Can't Post

I know it started as a audio app, but I don't know all of it's features.
......................................................................
Philadelphia Wedding Video
The Kenneth Stillman Blog
Same Day Edit

Tim A
User

Oct 7, 2009, 9:14 AM

Post #12 of 24 (275 views)
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Re: [MLiebergot] syncing is easy.....errrrr.... Tell me how [In reply to]	Can't Post

Again Michael thanks!!!

I don't have trouble syncing audio with video but syncing two or three audio sources together to make one good audio track is where I have trouble. I can see where the H2n would narrow it down to at least two sources for the ceremony (as far as music goes) and possibly one source for the reception which would be fantastic.

Should the drum mic be used for the piano or the M3?
If using both XLR's on the H2n, can volume be set for each?

One problem I forsee for me is getting the levels set properly. Access to the H2n after music starts may not be possible, so if you don't go to the music rehersal, it could be guess work.

__________________________________________________________________

MLiebergot
Veteran

Oct 7, 2009, 9:39 AM

Post #13 of 24 (273 views)
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Re: [Tim A] syncing is easy.....errrrr.... Tell me how [In reply to]	Can't Post

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Tim first off, the recorder is the H4n, not the H2n. I only bring this up in case you do a search online for it.

Quote

Should the drum mic be used for the piano or the M3?

I wouldn't recommend using a drum mic for a piano, as the input signal won;t be strong enough in many cases. The exception to this is if you place the mic directly inside the lid of the piano. Drum mics are best served for loud SPL recordings such as church pipe organ, PS stacks etc. If you are micing a piano then the M3 (with the gain switch in the mic set to 0) miced closely to the piano would be your best bet.

Quote

If using both XLR's on the H2n, can volume be set for each?

This is the only thing that the H4n won't do well compared to a dedicated mixer or mixer recorder like the Edirol R44. You can only adjust the inputs in stereo pairs. So you can only adjust the XLRs in pairs, onboard mics in pairs, and 1/8 stereo input in pairs. At least you have the luxury to adjust the onboard mics and XLR inputs separately, but again only adjustable in pairs.

Quote

One problem I forsee for me is getting the levels set properly. Access to the H2n after music starts may not be possible, so if you don't go to the music rehersal, it could be guess work.

While this is correct, you soon will find sweet spots for your recording levels with little need to adjust while recording. An example is that I know that if I'm recording a PA stack closely, I will set my input recording gain to anywhere from -1-10. This is if I'm recording loud spl levels closely. If I want more of a spread, like I did for a band this past weekend (not all audio was coming out of PA stacks as drums, horns were live, I will use the onboard mics facing the band in a 120 spread and record at 22 and then use the XLRs placed near the PA stack at 10, as I was using Shure SM57's which are drum style mics. I could have miced the horns and drums as well if I wanted, but space was limited.

The nice thing about the controls on the H4n, is that you can access the recording input right on the unit and adjust on the fly if needed. Also there are buttons on the front of the H4n for mic and XLR1 and 2. So you can access the recording levels for each on the fly by pushing the button and adjust the levels. much more intuitive than the older H4, where you had to access the menu to perform this task, and better than the H2, where you can only adjust all levels globally not even in pairs like the H4n can.

While it's by no means the perfect recorder, it suits my needs for most situations. As it's the smallest 4 track recorder out there, has good manual controls, decent not great pre amps (much better then previous Zooms) and is easy to operate on the fly.

For times where I want a more robust setup, like live stage and concert recordings, I go to my Edirol R44 and mci and adjust accordingly for all 4 channels. Even then I still mihgt find that I will use the R44 along with the H4n. So it definitely gets used.

Michael

Cameras: (3) Sony FX1, Canon HV20
Audio: Marantz PMD620, Edirol R44, ZoomH4N, ZoomH2, Sennhesier G2
Mics: Rode NT5, Rode NT3, Rode M3, Rode NTG2, Shure SM57, AT822
Software: Sony Vegas, Final Cut Studio
Computer: MAC BABY! MacPro, MacBook Pro

Brackish
Veteran

Oct 7, 2009, 11:22 AM

Post #14 of 24 (267 views)
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Re: [Tim A] syncing is easy.....errrrr.... Tell me how [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

Most of the ceremony's we do the vocalist sing from the podium in front of the quire loft. The piano will be on one side of the loft and organ on the other. I want to make sure this is something I will use and have time to setup and take down.

Using the H4n ... you could put the onboard mic's on the organ, and
run one XLR out to the singer and the other XLR out to the piano.

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Tim A
User

Oct 7, 2009, 11:39 AM

Post #15 of 24 (266 views)
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Re: [MLiebergot] syncing is easy.....errrrr.... Tell me how [In reply to]	Can't Post

I'm going to order the H"4"N Wink

from Sweetwater (B&H closed) Looks like I need another mic too. Any suggestions (under $200)?

I don't do interviews, but our next wedding the bride talked me in to doing them. Unsure

Will the M3 do ok for interviews?

I like the idea of having two mics and the H4N all on one stand. I have a 25' male/female XLR cable. What other cable lengths do you suggest? Do they need to be male/female for the H4N?

__________________________________________________________________

(This post was edited by Tim A on Oct 7, 2009, 11:40 AM)

MLiebergot
Veteran

Oct 7, 2009, 12:18 PM

Post #16 of 24 (260 views)
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Re: [Brackish] syncing is easy.....errrrr.... Tell me how [In reply to]	Can't Post

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Using the H4n ... you could put the onboard mic's on the organ, and
run one XLR out to the singer and the other XLR out to the piano.

Actually Brack, that's what I would do as well, but I misread his original post and thought that the piano and organ was up in the loft and the signer was on the floor.
So I thought that the music would be coming from different levels of the church.

Michael

Cameras: (3) Sony FX1, Canon HV20
Audio: Marantz PMD620, Edirol R44, ZoomH4N, ZoomH2, Sennhesier G2
Mics: Rode NT5, Rode NT3, Rode M3, Rode NTG2, Shure SM57, AT822
Software: Sony Vegas, Final Cut Studio
Computer: MAC BABY! MacPro, MacBook Pro

Brackish
Veteran

Oct 7, 2009, 12:45 PM

Post #17 of 24 (251 views)
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Re: [Mark Foley] syncing is easy.....errrrr.... Tell me how [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

I have some of the best recording equipment money can buy (now a Cantar-X2)

You're divorced now, right? Wink

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MLiebergot
Veteran

Oct 7, 2009, 12:47 PM

Post #18 of 24 (251 views)
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Re: [Tim A] syncing is easy.....errrrr.... Tell me how [In reply to]	Can't Post

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I'm going to order the H"4"N Wink

from Sweetwater (B&H closed) Looks like I need another mic too. Any suggestions (under $200)?

Shure SM57's are great for close micing and are rock solid mics that require no additional power. You see these used all of the time for presidential podium speeches and close in micing, especially PA stack. One thing to remember though about them is that you need to use these for close micing of you audio source, like right up on a PA stack or directly in front of a vocalist. If the audio being recorded is too quiet then you will need a good pre amp to record those sounds. But these are great to have in your audio toolkit. Another good one if the Shure Beta 57A or the Shure SM86 is a very good cardioid mic.

Now there are better mics, but I'm trying to keep it in the under $200 range you mentioned.

Quote

I don't do interviews, but our next wedding the bride talked me in to doing them. Unsure

Will the M3 do ok for interviews?

Well we don;t do interview either except for the bridal party during the night.
The M3 will work alright for interviews, but it's kind of big and bulky. If you pick one up use the above mentioned Shure SM86 for this purpose.

Quote

I like the idea of having two mics and the H4N all on one stand. I have a 25' male/female XLR cable. What other cable lengths do you suggest? Do they need to be male/female for the H4N?

Take a look at this setup that I run for weddings. It's quick and simple to setup (10 minutes max for me). And since I am all self powered there is no cabling needed, so it can be moved anywhere at a moments notice.
This setup is for my older Zoom H4, not the newer recorders I use, but the style of setup is the same. Normally I use the Windtech mic stand clamps to attach to the mic stand and mount the parts accordingly, recorder, mics etc.
The config may change depending on how many is I am using. SO if I decide to simply run the H4n with the onboard mics only then I mount the H4n on top of the mic stand via Edirol OP-R09Mand attach a mic stand clamp and mic (usually Rode M3) with plug-in wireless transmitter attached to send a constant PA audio signal signal to my camera. If I trust the board tech or DJ, whihc isn't often I will send a board feed to my camera instead, but I prefer to mic accordingly instead as I like having as much control over all aspects of my filming without having to worry if someone else is going to mess up my shoot.

For more complex setups I will attach the recorder to the top of the stand, and use 3 clamps to attach a 3 mics (2 of the mics are plugged into the H4n) and the other is a wireless mic sending a reference/backup signal to my camera. It's getting to the point now, that I have no need for my camera audio so in the future I might dump the onboard camera all together and run all critical audio off camera. This would shrink my overall camera setup big time as it's quite a beast of a setup (Sony FX1, Juicedlink XLR adapter, Rode NTG2 shotgun mic, Sennheiser G2 wireless, Comer1800 LED light, Sony MRC1K CF recorder, all mounted on DVMulti Rig. If I'd lose the onboard audio, then I would only have a light and CF recorder attached to the camera, as I woudl most likely lose the NTG2 shotgun, as the onboard camera mic is sufficient for ambient audio if needed. But I modified all of my FX1's to take the Z1 mic mount, so it's no real big deal to have a shotgun attached to my camera if needed via 1/8 port.

Michael

Cameras: (3) Sony FX1, Canon HV20
Audio: Marantz PMD620, Edirol R44, ZoomH4N, ZoomH2, Sennhesier G2
Mics: Rode NT5, Rode NT3, Rode M3, Rode NTG2, Shure SM57, AT822
Software: Sony Vegas, Final Cut Studio
Computer: MAC BABY! MacPro, MacBook Pro

Tim A
User

Oct 7, 2009, 1:50 PM

Post #19 of 24 (245 views)
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Re: [MLiebergot] syncing is easy.....errrrr.... Tell me how [In reply to]	Can't Post

Ok, I think that has all my questions answered except the cables. Should I go ahead and get long cables and use them on short runs too or get long (25') and short (5'/10')? EDIT: Never mind this question, I guess it depends on if you want to have extra cable laying around to get tangled and trip over or spend the money to get shorter cables when needed.

Does the H4n take female or male?

__________________________________________________________________

(This post was edited by Tim A on Oct 7, 2009, 2:56 PM)

Mark Foley
Veteran

Oct 7, 2009, 2:51 PM

Post #20 of 24 (240 views)
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Re: [Brackish] syncing is easy.....errrrr.... Tell me how [In reply to]	Can't Post

I was lucky enough to fall into a very lucrative govt. project that enabled me to purchase my lifelong dream of a recorder.
_________________________
Mark

WARNING: Excessive consumption of alcohol leads to memory loss. Worse yet....it leads to memory loss.

Brackish
Veteran

Oct 9, 2009, 3:11 AM

Post #21 of 24 (202 views)
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Re: [Mark Foley] syncing is easy.....errrrr.... Tell me how [In reply to]	Can't Post

A few questions related to the Cantar ...

So the max mic-in tracks you can do at once is 5?

And then 4 line-in for a total max of 9 at once?

What's the max gain in dB per channel on the mic tracks?

Are you still using the R44 or plan to get rid of it?

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Mark Foley
Veteran

Oct 9, 2009, 4:51 AM

Post #22 of 24 (198 views)
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I haven't seen any data relating to max db gain for the mic pres. It will do up to 8 tracks of recording (6 digital fadar controlled tracks plus 2 additional from the mixdown or direct inputs). Still trying to figure all the capabilites/setup of this thing...it has mindboggling setup processes...

R44(s) still in use for wedding/reception work. No plans to use this at run and gun wedding events as I would not trust any drunks within two miles of this thing. Will be used soley for commercial work.
_________________________
Mark

WARNING: Excessive consumption of alcohol leads to memory loss. Worse yet....it leads to memory loss.

Brackish
Veteran

Oct 9, 2009, 11:14 AM

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In Reply To

I haven't seen any data relating to max db gain for the mic pres.

Hmmmm. I would have thought it would be listed in the specs.
Guess not.

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Mark Foley
Veteran

Oct 9, 2009, 11:58 AM

Post #24 of 24 (182 views)
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It is probably buried in the specs somewhere. I'm just learning how to even turn the darn thing on. Probably easier to land the Space Shuttle than to use the X2 Cool

_________________________
Mark

WARNING: Excessive consumption of alcohol leads to memory loss. Worse yet....it leads to memory loss.