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Home: Video University Forums: Digital Photography for Videographers:
Choosing a flash for a 20D....

Storm Crow
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Sep 8, 2005, 7:41 AM

Post #1 of 22 (2578 views)
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Choosing a flash for a 20D....	Can't Post

Well if all goes as I expect this week I should be able to finally afford my Canon 20D that I have wanted for a long, long time now. I'll probably just order the body and then the Tamron lens that everyone is suggesting for now in addition to the battery clip.

As for the flash. Can someone explain to me the real differences when it comes to the Canon flashes? What are the differences from the 580 EX to the 550 EX? Do these flashes tell me everything I need to know on the backside? Will I need one of those light meters also? I'm also planning on using this camera to do some senior pictures and some model work also. It's funny, I have beautiful young models lining up for me to take their pictures but I don't even have the camera yet! Doh! Blush

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Good Friend, around these hearth stones, speak no evil of any creature.

Warning: Exposure to the Son can prevent burn!
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Jeko
Enthusiast

Sep 8, 2005, 9:28 AM

Post #2 of 22 (2573 views)
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Re: [Storm Crow] Choosing a flash for a 20D.... [In reply to]	Can't Post

What are the differences from the 580 EX to the 550 EX?
The highpoints are that the 580EX is smaller and easier to manipulate (one button release to tilt/swivel, as opposed to 550's two), and it can flash again after partial recycle (excellent for burst mode).

Do these flashes tell me everything I need to know on the backside?
580EX is a bit better here too. What did you want to know specifically?

Will I need one of those light meters also?
You can forgo the light meter unless you are doing something extremely tricky as ETTL-II will check the light levels for you. ETTL is "Evaluative through the lens" metering..... what could be better than measuring what the camera actually sees?!

Jeko

Sony VX2100's, iRivers, M-audio 24/96, Canon 5Ds/20Ds (and too much glass), Vegas6, PhotoShop CS3, Lightroom, etc.

Storm Crow
Veteran

Sep 8, 2005, 9:57 AM

Post #3 of 22 (2570 views)
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Re: [Jeko] Choosing a flash for a 20D.... [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

Do these flashes tell me everything I need to know on the backside?
580EX is a bit better here too. What did you want to know specifically?

Thanks for the info Jeko. As for the information on the backside of the flash (580EX), will it tell me what settings to use on the camera for ISO and other things or will the camera automatically adjust? Don't the light meters tell you what settings to set your camera at and would the 580EX do the same thing? I know basically nothing about still photography but want to learn FAST. Do you think it would be a good idea to get the extra battery pack for the flash to recycle faster or is that something I could probably do without until later?

Also do I want the inported 580EX or the one made in the USA? Seems the USA one is $10 more?
_________________________________________________

Good Friend, around these hearth stones, speak no evil of any creature.

Warning: Exposure to the Son can prevent burn!
_________________________________________________

(This post was edited by Storm Crow on Sep 8, 2005, 10:09 AM)

Jeko
Enthusiast

Sep 8, 2005, 11:28 AM

Post #4 of 22 (2566 views)
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Re: [Storm Crow] Choosing a flash for a 20D.... [In reply to]	Can't Post

I usually set ISO at 400 for indoor or darker locations, though I'll use ISO 200 often when flash is more for filler in a bright environment (best to shoot and evaluate the histogram). There is no flash that will tell you the ISO that I've seen (I have canon 420, 550 and 580's).

Admittedly, I am not an authority on light metering. I actually hate to slow down shoots to keep rechecking, and I seldom sit in one location/pose for very many shots. Light meters do optimize ISO for a pinpoint location, and if retested for each configuration.... but, will you really recheck for each group/pose?? Your not in a studio, so probably not if you are under any time constraint. Basically, if I can't see difference on histogram, does it really matter? Note that I do use several remote flashes if I am in DARK churches with large groups, but these are still ETTL-II controlled.

The flash and camera will communicate and optimize with ETTL-II. Play/practice with it. This is a great excuse to lug the thing every where to test flashes on family, pets and friends (restaurants, events, etc). Digital lets you learn immediately, if you use the histogram to inerpret too.

Lastly, here is a very good reference: http://photonotes.org/articles/eos-flash/

Once you get your flash, I suggest that you quickly also learn how your camera meters the light (you can control the area selected- optimize for group shoots or for silhouettes and such) and how to manually vary the flash's intensity (for things like balancing couple in foreground with a colorful sunset).

Now, you too can be both a vidiot and a loose Canon.

Jeko

Sony VX2100's, iRivers, M-audio 24/96, Canon 5Ds/20Ds (and too much glass), Vegas6, PhotoShop CS3, Lightroom, etc.

TimK
User

Sep 10, 2005, 5:01 AM

Post #5 of 22 (2537 views)
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Re: [Jeko] Choosing a flash for a 20D.... [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

Will I need one of those light meters also?
..... what could be better than measuring what the camera actually sees?!

A light meter could be better. TTL gets you in the ballpark, but makes decisions based on assumptions. You could increase the effectiveness by using the spot setting and aiming at an 18% grey card, but there really is no replacement for a professional to use anything other than a light meter. There is very little lattitude with digital cameras to get the best possible image. You want to know exactly what the light hitting your subject it, not an average of a reflective reading. As you become more expert in what you are doing, you may get to the point to use your flash manually because you know you want your flash output to be very specific (i.e. exactly 1/2 stop more than ambient, etc.)

(This post was edited by TimK on Sep 10, 2005, 5:07 AM)

Jeko
Enthusiast

Sep 10, 2005, 7:55 AM

Post #6 of 22 (2531 views)
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Re: [TimK] Choosing a flash for a 20D.... [In reply to]	Can't Post

Tim,

Thanks for the input. I am somewhat anti-meter these days and both sides warrant discussion. As I indicated, I spend very little time in one location at a wedding shoot and tend to move from spot to spot quickly. Maybe too quickly, but I've got photo and video to get to...

Could you elaborate on "You want to know exactly what the light hitting your subject is, not an average of a reflective reading". My reasoning/logic for prefering ETTL-II (aside from results I am pleased with) is that the camera is recording the reflective light when photographing. Thats why I ask "what could be better (than EETL-II evaluating each shot)?"

Also, what does "There is very little lattitude with digital cameras to get the best possible image" mean? Is there a real difference between film and digital here? I guess that could be offset by the advantage of viewing results immediately to see if the shot worked out.... if you can't review results, thats where/when a light meter will be crucial.

Jeko

Sony VX2100's, iRivers, M-audio 24/96, Canon 5Ds/20Ds (and too much glass), Vegas6, PhotoShop CS3, Lightroom, etc.

TimK
User

Sep 12, 2005, 12:58 PM

Post #7 of 22 (2510 views)
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Re: [Jeko] Choosing a flash for a 20D.... [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

Could you elaborate on "You want to know exactly what the light hitting your subject is, not an average of a reflective reading".

TTL (Through The Lens) metering takes a reflective reading - meaning it looks at the light bouncing off the subject rather than a direct measurement from the light source itself. There is no way it can know what degrees of tonality you are shooting, therefore it uses an average of 18% grey. If you have your subject hold a grey card, and you meter off that only then you will be accurate. It can work pretty well if you propely use matrix metering and/or spot metering with your camera and most of all have the experience to really know what is going on. You're right, with weddings you usually dont have the time to mess with a meter, but in doing seniors and models a light meter is not inconvenient.

In Reply To

Also, what does "There is very little lattitude with digital cameras to get the best possible image" mean? Is there a real difference between film and digital here?

Film is a lot more forgiving with exposure. Seasoned pros will even sometimes over/under expose to get a certain look or to enhance specific characteristics with a certain film type. With digital, the further you stray from accurate exposure, the more noise and artifacts become apparent. This of course depends on the camera. Some handle it better than others.

Pacman
User

Sep 15, 2005, 9:25 AM

Post #8 of 22 (2470 views)
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Re: [Storm Crow] Choosing a flash for a 20D.... [In reply to]	Can't Post

Storm,

Did you buy your 20D and accessories yet? You may want to hold off a few weeks (hard to do, I know) and wait for the fall Canon rebate program. They usually run rebates two times a year and I'm pretty sure they start one late Sept. early Oct. There's no telling what it will be or how much, but last time I heard it was some kind of triple rebate if you bought camera, lens, and flash together.....It could add up to a few hundred bucks. At least thats what I'm hoping (and waiting) for.

PAC

Storm Crow
Veteran

Sep 20, 2005, 7:40 AM

Post #9 of 22 (2408 views)
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Re: [Pacman] Choosing a flash for a 20D.... [In reply to]	Can't Post

Pacman, No I have not ordered it yet but was planning on doing so today so I could have it for this weekends wedding. Damn I wish I would not have seen your post Frown

because it might be worth it ot hold off. Is this deal only if you buy direct from Canon or through other sellers? I found the 20D at BuyDig for $1289 (body only) and then was going to get the Tamron lens and a stick of 512 memory and later (next week or so) add the 580EX flash and the battery grip.
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Good Friend, around these hearth stones, speak no evil of any creature.

Warning: Exposure to the Son can prevent burn!
_________________________________________________

Toogy
User

Sep 25, 2005, 9:16 AM

Post #10 of 22 (2358 views)
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Re: [Storm Crow] Choosing a flash for a 20D.... [In reply to]	Can't Post

A tip I will suggest you try once you get your 580EX.
If you are shooting indoors or anywhere where the flash will be the primary light source, put the camera in Full manual mode and set the shutter speed to 1/80th (depends on how steady your hands are, maybe 1/100th) and set your F-stop to F5.0, leave the flash in ETTL-II mode and it will automatically make up the difference. I find I get MUCH more consistent shots doing this than putting the camera in P-Mode.
For outdoor shots where flash will be used as fill only, I put the camera in AV mode, and set the flash to hi-sync mode and it will automatically fire as needed. Works pretty good for me most of the time.
Anyways, hope this might help you a little when you do get your flash.
------------------------->
Jeff Toogood
Digital ISO

http://www.digitaliso.ca/blog
http://www.pbase.com/toogy

Storm Crow
Veteran

Sep 25, 2005, 9:46 PM

Post #11 of 22 (2347 views)
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Re: [Toogy] Choosing a flash for a 20D.... [In reply to]	Can't Post

Very good tips Toogy. I'll give them a try when I get the flash for sure. I just had an appointment set up for next week to book Dec. 10th of this year so that should allow me to go ahead and get the 580EX flash next week. Then I'll probably look into the battery grip after that and then the case.
_________________________________________________

Good Friend, around these hearth stones, speak no evil of any creature.

Warning: Exposure to the Son can prevent burn!
_________________________________________________

(This post was edited by Storm Crow on Sep 25, 2005, 9:47 PM)

Jeko
Enthusiast

Sep 28, 2005, 10:34 AM

Post #12 of 22 (2301 views)
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Re: [Storm Crow] Choosing a flash for a 20D.... [In reply to]	Can't Post

I also suggest a diffuser for your flash... soften the hot spots and widen the scatter when needed.

LightSphereII link: http://secure.mycart.net/...8&showprevnext=1

Jeko

Sony VX2100's, iRivers, M-audio 24/96, Canon 5Ds/20Ds (and too much glass), Vegas6, PhotoShop CS3, Lightroom, etc.

Storm Crow
Veteran

Oct 2, 2005, 10:11 AM

Post #13 of 22 (2263 views)
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Re: [Jeko] Choosing a flash for a 20D.... [In reply to]	Can't Post

What about this one Jeko?

I've seen many photogs in my area using this one. I've also seen others using the one you suggest with and without the sphere on top. That one looks too bulky for some reason and reminds me of a gumball machine. It may however be more functional for many more situations and for studio work.
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Good Friend, around these hearth stones, speak no evil of any creature.

Warning: Exposure to the Son can prevent burn!
_________________________________________________

Jeko
Enthusiast

Oct 2, 2005, 12:52 PM

Post #14 of 22 (2260 views)
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Re: [Storm Crow] Choosing a flash for a 20D.... [In reply to]	Can't Post

Lightsphere is more adaptable to me.

Indoors, with no "bowl"/top attached, I can bounce most light off the ceiling while some light is also drawn forward for direct lighting (hence, better balance).
Out doors, I add the bowl to shoot direct at subjects with better diffusion.

True, it was akward to pack untill I added a strap on my outer bag to loop through it. But it's a trade off, as it's height moves the flash's illumination a bit further away from the lens.... don't photographers buy/carry brackets to do that? So, my logic is which is easier: the one you've pictured WITH a bracket or the lightsphere?

Jeko

Sony VX2100's, iRivers, M-audio 24/96, Canon 5Ds/20Ds (and too much glass), Vegas6, PhotoShop CS3, Lightroom, etc.

Scott Brooks
Veteran

Oct 2, 2005, 9:00 PM

Post #15 of 22 (2245 views)
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Re: [Storm Crow] Choosing a flash for a 20D.... [In reply to]	Can't Post

I don't use the Lightsphere, but if you decide to go that route you should probably wait for the new one that's out, but only being sold to previous customers. It's more flexible and holds onto the flash much better. Also, it does not utilize a dome.

Storm Crow
Veteran

Oct 19, 2005, 10:00 PM

Post #16 of 22 (2137 views)
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Re: [Sparky] Choosing a flash for a 20D.... [In reply to]	Can't Post

Well i finally ordered my 580EX flash so some time next week it should be here. I wasn't in any huge hurry so I saved on shipping. The flash has a $20 mail in rebate right now so I got it for $355 which is the best I could find after the rebate.
_________________________________________________

Good Friend, around these hearth stones, speak no evil of any creature.

Warning: Exposure to the Son can prevent burn!
_________________________________________________

videochicke
Veteran

Oct 22, 2005, 10:03 AM

Post #17 of 22 (2050 views)
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Re: [Storm Crow] Choosing a flash for a 20D.... [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

A photographer friend of mine has been experimenting with 2 580's on his 20D. One as a bounce and one pointed straight ahead. Once the pics are online, I'll post the link. From what I saw in the camera, it looked very nice!
Julie

Storm Crow
Veteran

Oct 22, 2005, 10:35 AM

Post #18 of 22 (2046 views)
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Re: [videochicke] Choosing a flash for a 20D.... [In reply to]	Can't Post

Sounds good Chicke, I'll keep my eye out for your post Wink

Note: BuyDig.com kept messing up my order so I finally called them and told them what I wanted and looking at the status online it still says preparing to ship so maybe I won't have it for next week. Unsure

Pacman
User

Oct 22, 2005, 4:12 PM

Post #19 of 22 (2033 views)
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Re: [Storm Crow] Choosing a flash for a 20D.... [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Storm.

How many weddings have you shot with the 20D so far? How is it working for you? I finally ordered mine once the rebates hit. I told you they were coming! I saved $550, but I won't get anything until B&H comes off holiday. Should be getting the delivery by first week in November.

PAC

***C'mon Brack......your turn to heat up the plastic! Canon triple rebates are in effect until December or Jan 1, I think.

Storm Crow
Veteran

Oct 23, 2005, 2:14 AM

Post #20 of 22 (2017 views)
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Re: [Pacman] Choosing a flash for a 20D.... [In reply to]	Can't Post

Pacman, It's working great so far. I posted some new images over in the Wedding forum where gl posted about the deal on the 20D. Yeah you did save alot of money by waiting but I knew if I waited the money would have burned a hole in my pocket on something else and I have always wanted a GOOD camera and I finally have one. I love it. One thing I learned was if you try to print them yourself, the images will look crappy. So now I send the ones I want to print to an online place and they do a great job and the pic's look great! Even blown up as big as an 11x14 there is no pixelation AT ALL! I oredered my new flash (580EX) but buydig.com screwed up and the thing still has not even shipped Mad

Anyway, you'll love this camera and I cannot wait to start doing some cover art for my DVD's with the images taken with it.
_________________________________________________

Good Friend, around these hearth stones, speak no evil of any creature.

Warning: Exposure to the Son can prevent burn!
_________________________________________________

abracadabra
User

Dec 24, 2005, 5:51 AM

Post #21 of 22 (1506 views)
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Re: [Storm Crow] Choosing a flash for a 20D.... [In reply to]	Can't Post

BTW, we use 580's on our 20d's. Have found in full darkness, 5.6 @125th ASA400 works great in manual mode for dark reception halls , etc.

Storm Crow
Veteran

Dec 24, 2005, 9:00 AM

Post #22 of 22 (1503 views)
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Re: [abracadabra] Choosing a flash for a 20D.... [In reply to]	Can't Post

Good info, thanks!

I've not even begun to play with the settings on the flash unit... still learning the camera, lol Wink