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Home: Video University Forums: Digital Photography for Videographers:
Dancing pics

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Jenn M
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Jul 23, 2006, 4:33 PM

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Dancing pics	Can't Post

Well, this past weekend, the photographer left early so we broke out the Canon 20D (we just bought it used - in addition to the 30D) and played with it at the end of the night.

Brian shot the dancing pics:
Michelle's Album

I'm not thrilled with the outside pics b/c they are underexposed, not framed well, and I knew it, but (like a shmuck) I got flustered and rushed. I didn't change the white balance to shade, which I prefer using in these lighting conditions (to warm it up). And again, the paid photographer was standing there watching me. I waited until she was finished and then said, "Okay, I just want to snap a couple of quick shots for your cover..." I set the video camera aside, pulled out the 20D and the photog leaned forward and examined my camera, my flash, and proceeded to watch me for a couple of minutes. Ugh - I hate that. I really wanted to take them out from under the porch, but I didn't want the photog to freak and think I was doing a full photo shoot. I HAVE to get over that, I know. I still believe it will be different when WE are the paid photographer and I'm SUPPOSED to be there shooting and I won't be so nervous with someone watching me with that glaring, suspicious eye.

The dancing pics - by this point the photog had left. I don't like how dark they are. Obviously we have some work to do with flash. One thing I foresee is additional pole flash to light up the rear of the room. Most venues we shoot in are this dark. They just refuse to turn up the lights, despite repeated requests from videographers and photographers. I'm convinced they are all trying to hide something!

Anyway, one mistake - Brian didn't remove the OmniBounce, so that killed some flash output. Also, he was being 'shy' and stayed back since we weren't the paid photographer, even though she had already left. Another thing that annoyed me - he keeps using manual settings. I suggested for dancing he choose either TV, AV, or program, b/c distances and subjects keep changing and moving. Am I right about this?

I'm looking for suggestions/advice on shooting dancing shots, dark venues, etc. I know it varies depending on ceiling height, room size, distance of the subject, etc, but in general, what settings do you recommend? What ISO do you recommend with flash? I thought a higher ISO would be better with such a dark venue, b/c the chances of these images being enlarged are slim... am I right?

Also, do you use manual flash settings? We are working with the Canon 580EX. How many use an external, off-camera flash?

Lastly, I'm not thrilled about the color - the faces look oversaturated. We tried both Tungsten setting and AWB. Does anyone use manual custom pre-settings, dropping saturation?

Looking for any suggestions, recommendations, settings, advice on shooting in these types of conditions.

RustyB
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Jul 23, 2006, 4:46 PM

Post #2 of 34 (2018 views)
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Re: [Jenn M] Dancing pics [In reply to]	Can't Post

From my amateur, non-wedding photographer point-of-view, I think you said it best. The reception pics are really dark. Most of the photographers I see don't use flash poles, but use diffusers, even in the dark venues like that. Isn't that 580EX flash you use the most popular flash among wedding photographers? Seems like it would have more power than that. For me personally, I don't see how some photogs get away without a flash pole in those situations. I think I'd want to carry one.

For those outdoor shots, does your flash have some kind of "Full Power" fill flash setting? I've only tried my new flash outdoors once at Easter, and it did pretty well undiffused, and pointed straight at the subject in FP mode(Olympus).

That's cool you're taking the opportunities to get some wedding photo test shots at your video gigs! Tongue

Faith Poison Wedding Films Blog
Intergalactic Award-Winning Epic-Cinematic Wedding New-Doc Style Indie Bridal Movies on Hi-Definition Blu-Ray Disc

Scott Brooks
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Jul 23, 2006, 5:52 PM

Post #3 of 34 (2009 views)
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Re: [Jenn M] Dancing pics [In reply to]	Can't Post

Jenn,

You said Brian was shooting manual for the reception. There is nothing wrong with that if the settings are correct.

What settings did he use ... iso, shutter speed and aperture. Also ... was the flash being used as a direct flash (doesn't appear to be), pointed at a 45 degree angle or straight up?

Did he use any FEC ... flash exposure compensation?

I have to take a look at some files from last night, but I'll be watching this one.

Brian M
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Jul 23, 2006, 6:01 PM

Post #4 of 34 (2004 views)
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Re: [Sparky] Dancing pics [In reply to]	Can't Post

I had the flash tilted up about 45 degrees. I was also back a ways behind a table. It was the end of the night after the hired photog left so I just wanted to test the power of the flash and didn't want to force my way inside the circle and bother the couple. Figured they had enough.
I was using 1600 iso and 80 shutter and 2.8 apeture. I realized after getting home that I should have bumped the flash compensation up a few notches. That's the mode that goes in 1/3 incriments +/- correct?
I'm trying to do as much in manual to help memorize the settings quicker. I feel it's better than shooting program mode and then reading the settings afterwards.
Brian M

________________________________________________
Photographer & Videographer

(This post was edited by Brian M on Jul 23, 2006, 6:08 PM)

Scott Brooks
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Jul 23, 2006, 6:31 PM

Post #5 of 34 (1996 views)
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Re: [Brian M] Dancing pics [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

It's hard to tell just how far away you actually were from them from the photos. However, had you been in program mode there wouldn't have been any need to look at the settings. In that situation it's always going to be f/4 @ 1/60 of a second. P won't let it go below either.

I know I shot many of my dancing photos last night at iso 800 (I almost never use 1600), flash straight up (10 foot ceiliings), using a Flip-It. I may have boosted my FEC just a little, but don't remember. Aperture set at 4 or 4.5 so that I have a little more room for error on DOF ... and my shutter was set at 1/40th or 1/30th.

I have to admit that I'm not looking to light up the entire room. I don't want my shots to look like they were done in a black hole and do want to allow for some ambient light, but I'm going to keep my gear as simple as possible.

I need to go read the faq section so I can see how to post a photo.

Shadow
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Jul 23, 2006, 8:49 PM

Post #6 of 34 (1990 views)
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Re: [Jenn M] Dancing pics [In reply to]	Can't Post

HI Jenn

Looks like you're having fun with the new toys. Smile

I really liked the vertical outside shot where they were kissing, have you tried cropping out some of the sky to see what it looks like?

I haven't had much experience with reception shots, the one I did had a wall of windows and it was still light out when the dancing was going on.
I wonder what the automatic settings would look like, anyone tried this? The magic lantern guide for these cameras say that photographers shouldn't avoid the automatic settings as in some situations they work really well. I'm wondering if in this case it would have worked ok.

When I was shooting some wedding photos a couple of weeks ago I had use a mix of manual and auto settings, some turned out better than others. But since I'm not the hired photographer I'm going to do some testing and find out what dark lighting in receptions turn out like with auto settings.

H

JeffErie
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Jul 24, 2006, 7:39 AM

Post #7 of 34 (1967 views)
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videochicke
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Jul 24, 2006, 9:56 AM

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Re: [Jenn M] Dancing pics [In reply to]	Can't Post

Here is what CS2 can do to those pics--not perfect but a huge difference!

Julie

videochicke
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Jul 24, 2006, 10:03 AM

Post #9 of 34 (1952 views)
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Re: [Jenn M] Dancing pics [In reply to]	Can't Post

And here is one of the outdoor pics adjusted with CS2:

Julie

Postal Boy
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Jul 24, 2006, 11:10 AM

Post #10 of 34 (1943 views)
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Re: [Jeff Natalie] Dancing pics [In reply to]	Can't Post

Jeff,

Your friend takes some really nice shots. I don't see more than 1 "wedding" shot, though. All others are posed, and very controlled environment shots.

However, the shots he has look really good.

-Postal

RustyB
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Jul 24, 2006, 11:19 AM

Post #11 of 34 (1942 views)
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Re: [videochicke] Dancing pics [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

Here is what CS2 can do to those pics--not perfect but a huge difference!

[inline "DPP_0019 copy.jpg"]

And to contribute a little cheese to your edit in Elements....

Faith Poison Wedding Films Blog
Intergalactic Award-Winning Epic-Cinematic Wedding New-Doc Style Indie Bridal Movies on Hi-Definition Blu-Ray Disc

(This post was edited by RustyB on Jul 24, 2006, 11:21 AM)

Postal Boy
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Jul 24, 2006, 12:05 PM

Post #12 of 34 (1933 views)
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Re: [RustyB] Dancing pics [In reply to]	Can't Post

MMMMmmmmm....cheetoooooos.........

Jenn M
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Jul 24, 2006, 12:12 PM

Post #13 of 34 (1930 views)
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Re: [Jeff Natalie] Dancing pics [In reply to]	Can't Post

I know they are lame, which to be honest, is why I felt more comfortable posting them here than on one of the photography forums. I figured you guys would be kinder and offer some advice on lighting.

We have been lazy about composition, b/c to be truthful, we've been paying more attention to exposure and lighting, trying to get that down. I feel fairly confident in my ability to compose a decent picture, when giving the time - afterall, I've had plenty of practice with videography, and so often I've heard, "OH, that would make a pretty picture" when a Client or even another wedding vendor watched our videos. Sigh - it's all about the photography.

Like I said, I just hate when the photog stands there and watches me. I get flustered. I know I have to spend the rest of the day with this guy or gal and just don't want any problems. On the other hand, I'm sick of trying to make DVD covers from video stills and a digital image just makes my job easier.

One thing that I've noticed is that videographers tend to be more nuturing toward newbs and fellow peers than photographers. Maybe it's just been my experiences, or my imagination, but photographers seem much more secretive and gaurded about advice, etc. Not all, of course, but in ratio, I'd say videographers are much more helpful to one another, and I wonder if that's b/c we realize we're all in the same boat - just trying to get some recognition and respect as a legit service. Photographers, however, are more in competition with each other b/c the public already recognizes them as a valuable service.

I digress. Anyway, thanks for looking.

Jenn M
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Jul 24, 2006, 12:19 PM

Post #14 of 34 (1928 views)
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Re: [videochicke] Dancing pics [In reply to]	Can't Post

Ha - thanks. Yeah, I think the ISO was too high - look at all that noise. eek.
And, like I said, Brian was too far away. At one point, I flashed my video light at him and pointed for him to move closer to the dance floor (he was about 20 feet away), but he shook his head. Later he said, "I can't do this if you're going to direct me like you do with the video."

But I knew it wasn't going to look all that great. And I was right. Wink

RustyB
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Jul 24, 2006, 1:23 PM

Post #15 of 34 (1918 views)
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Re: [Jenn M] Dancing pics [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

....One thing that I've noticed is that videographers tend to be more nuturing toward newbs and fellow peers than photographers. Maybe it's just been my experiences, or my imagination, but photographers seem much more secretive and gaurded about advice, etc. Not all, of course, but in ratio, I'd say videographers are much more helpful to one another, and I wonder if that's b/c we realize we're all in the same boat - just trying to get some recognition and respect as a legit service. Photographers, however, are more in competition with each other b/c the public already recognizes them as a valuable service.....

I agree, and it kind of amazes me what I see on other forums, when it comes to the attitudes towards noobs.

Maybe I have an overly simple view of the technical aspects of photography. To make a good video, there are countless technical pieces to the puzzle, which takes a lot of experience to even get into something workable...all artistic value aside. With photography, it pretty much boils down to simply taking a good picutre. Well, accept for what seems to be the consensus among all photographers that their photos need to be PhotoShop'd before they are finished. Shocked

With photography, you can pretty much learn to take a picture with the little booklet that comes with the camera, then send the pictures off to the lab for printing. With video, you have to learn to shoot video, capture multiple audio sources, learn to use an NLE and mix multiple video sources and multiple audio sources, learn to score music tracks, learn to author DVD's, learn to make DVD's that work, learn PhotoShop, learn to make DVD surface artwork, learn to design/print case inserts, and purchase/carry a truckload full of gear. If theirs anyone who should be protective about owning the keys to the city, it should be videographers...not photographers, but most of us are willing to tell-all to help each other out...especially considering how technology is constantly changing how we do stuff. Photographers are still retrofitting their digital cameras with 100 year old lenses, and paying someone else to make the actual photo albums.

On the artistic side, Jeff has a great point...it can be imtimidating to see some really interesting photos. But I look at it this way....what did your videos look like 2 years ago? 5 years ago? You gotta start somewhere. And I'm like Jenn says...focusing on things like proper exposure...rather than artistic shots or excessive PhotoShopping. And even the most bland and boring photography, correctly framed/exposed, is surely more profitable than video in the same price range. And if enough time goes by, and I feel my work is worth the money, I'll start charging more for it.

Have you ever failed to accomplish your goals when it comes to creating something outstanding in video? There's no reason we can't do the same thing in photography!

Faith Poison Wedding Films Blog
Intergalactic Award-Winning Epic-Cinematic Wedding New-Doc Style Indie Bridal Movies on Hi-Definition Blu-Ray Disc

Brian M
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Jul 24, 2006, 11:34 PM

Post #16 of 34 (1876 views)
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Re: [Jenn M] Dancing pics [In reply to]	Can't Post

My attempt in Ulead PhotoImpact 10

Brian M

________________________________________________
Photographer & Videographer

Shadow
Veteran

Jul 24, 2006, 11:54 PM

Post #17 of 34 (1872 views)
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Re: [Jenn M] Dancing pics [In reply to]	Can't Post

What about cropping into a 5x7 or 4x6 vertically?

You could probably put some kind of thing around them to dull out the people in the background - I quickly did something to the arm beside the bride.

JeffErie
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Jul 25, 2006, 6:35 AM

Post #18 of 34 (1860 views)
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Re: [Brian M] Dancing pics [In reply to]	Can't Post

Brian,
a trick from Bob...set up a remote flash on a high lightstand in a corner of the room. Shoot perpendicular to the flash and you'll get that back fill to really make your image pop.

Jeff Natalie - President, ErieKIDS
ErieKIDS Blog
"In the Middle" debuts November 13, 2008

Brian M
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Jul 25, 2006, 6:46 AM

Post #19 of 34 (1857 views)
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Re: [Jeff Natalie] Dancing pics [In reply to]	Can't Post

Yeah ... I think we're going to have to do the flash pole thing. These dancing pics that Jenn posted (not sure why) I just fired off from the other side of a round table after the hired photographers had left...just to see what the flash would do in a really dark room. I didn't want to get up close ... figured the couple had enought by then. I also forgot to remove the flash diffuser thing (still working on photo terminology Wink

)...like a soft box. It's good practice though to try to fix some bad exposures. I did learn not to go so high with the ISO which results in more noise and that I have to crank up the flash compensation a little.
Brian M

________________________________________________
Photographer & Videographer

JeffErie
Veteran

Jul 25, 2006, 8:13 AM

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Re: [Brian M] Dancing pics [In reply to]	Can't Post

Actually, now that I think about it..he uses photostrobes (floods). They are enormously intense and one can light up a room. Of course, they can be dialed down.

Jeff Natalie - President, ErieKIDS
ErieKIDS Blog
"In the Middle" debuts November 13, 2008

WLR
User

Jul 25, 2006, 11:11 AM

Post #21 of 34 (1843 views)
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I think the ISO was too high - look at all that noise. eek................................. Hi Jenn, Hey overall not a bad shot. To show you what the 20D is capable of, here is one shot and then a full sized close up of the same image, unretouched.........shot at iso 3200, no flash, awb, with the 17-85, 1/200 @ f4.5. For the higher iso settings you can activate, (and leave on permanently so you dont have to think about it ever again) the electronic noise filter. Go to Menu, Custom Functions, Scroll to 02 and select 1 to activate. Now although its designed for long exposures, it does help for shorter ones too.

Friends don't let friends shoot jpeg.

WLR
User

Jul 25, 2006, 11:17 AM

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Re: [WLR] Dancing pics [In reply to]	Can't Post

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and then a full sized close up of the same image, unretouched

And this is a piece of the full size 48x32

Friends don't let friends shoot jpeg.

DJ
Enthusiast

Jul 25, 2006, 1:14 PM

Post #23 of 34 (1828 views)
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Re: [Brian M] Dancing pics [In reply to]	Can't Post

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Okay, first of all ISO 1600 is way too high! I cringe at the noise introduced even at 400ISO Crazy

Though the flip-it is nice for whoever invented it as they'll make tons of money off of novices and gadget freaks, don't most flashes already have a built in bounce crad? Hmmm?

Shooting in P or Green Box or auto mode is fine for an amateur, but you really should learn your equipment and how to use them. You can use a big cresent wrench to drive a nail in a pinch, but a hammer is better suited for the task. Or, to put it another way: You can leave a PD-170 on a tripod and hope that something neat happens in front of it, in perfect frame, but isn't it better to have someone on it making sure? Practice practice practice... With digital there is no film cost so shoot everything at home working out different shutter / apeture/ flash combinations etc until you are comfortable enough to

The outdoor shots did not appear to me to be all that under. But then again, it all depends on the computer monitor that you are viewing it on as well. I'd be willing to bet that no more than 2 of the people in this thread even own a Color Spyder (or comparable) let alone have accurately used it to calibrate their monitor.

This image I've made one adjustment, bumping the exposure up about 1 full stop. Notice the noise that become more apparent, especially in the back wall in the upper right.

License Plate: DJ
Make the Time 4 Oh 9

DJ
Enthusiast

Jul 25, 2006, 1:16 PM

Post #24 of 34 (1826 views)
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Re: [DJ] Dancing pics [In reply to]	Can't Post

In this one I've addded a slight diffuse effect to help negate that ISO noise.

As far as WB, when using flash try setting to Cloudy Day. You might be suprised with the results.

As far as flash output while using an omni or other diffuser, adjust flash comp so that it's outputting 1:1 power to start. Next, flip that head down to straight on, and start there, especially from a distance.

License Plate: DJ
Make the Time 4 Oh 9

(This post was edited by DJ on Jul 25, 2006, 1:24 PM)

Scott Brooks
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Jul 25, 2006, 1:23 PM

Post #25 of 34 (1819 views)
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Re: [DJ] Dancing pics [In reply to]	Can't Post

Though the flip-it is nice for whoever invented it as they'll make tons of money off of novices and gadget freaks, don't most flashes already have a built in bounce crad? Hmmm?

I don't know about your bounce card on the flash, but mine does not tilt back allowing for different amounts of light to be thrown forward. For instance ... on a processional when the bride is further away the flip-it can be tilted to throw more light forward. As she gets closer it's easy to pull it back, allowing more light to bounce straight up.

My built in bounce card will also not work in portrait mode, while the flip-it will. I will never purchase a bracket.

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