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Home: Video University Forums: Digital Photography for Videographers:
For those of you who print proofs...

 

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Jenn M
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Oct 23, 2006, 6:16 PM

Post #1 of 41 (1733 views)
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For those of you who print proofs... Can't Post

Say you deliver approximately 300-400 printed proofs with your package - where do you print them? If online, do you mail a CD of the images, or upload them?


Postal Boy
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Oct 24, 2006, 12:31 PM

Post #2 of 41 (1696 views)
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Re: [Jenn M] For those of you who print proofs... [In reply to] Can't Post

Haven't really done a lot. For personal use, I just use Walmart. It is quick and close.

For other stuff (like large prints) I have been using MPIX - takes about 2-3 business days for it to show up at my house. So far it has only been personal stuff with them, too, but 18x12 and 20x16 prints - and they look good.

Sign up is free and prices are pretty good.

-Postal


Jenn M
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Oct 24, 2006, 1:24 PM

Post #3 of 41 (1686 views)
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Re: [Postal Boy] For those of you who print proofs... [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Postal,

We also use MPix for prints. I like their quality, but it takes forever to download so many files. We were wondering if we were A) doing something wrong or B) unaware of other options.

We've been using Walmart for quickie printing. We haven't yet had to deliver anything that anyone has paid for specifically. The engagement sessions have been part of booked packages, but technically we are only required to deliver the CD of proofs. I just included prints as a 'goodwill' gesture. For the weddings, however, they will receive up to 300 proofs, and here's my dilemma...

We had some prints done at Walmart, Sam's Club and CVS. CVS was horrible - we ended up getting our money back. They were flat and had marks on them, which the manager said was an error and was probably due to the paper being changed. But they also use glossy paper, which I don't like. The saturation and contrast was horrible.

Sam's Club delivered many different colors - one batch was fine, another batch was red and another batch was green.

Walmart was fine everytime except this last time when it counted - I went to purposely have prints done to deliver to the Client. They came back blue. The B&W images were blue and white, and when compared to the same print I had ordered there earlier in the week, they looked bad. What a waste of time. ACtually, when got them back from Walmart another time and they had lines on them - as if the ink were running out - almost like inkjet lines.

SO, if I'm delivering proofs to the Client, I want them to have decent quality in their hands to compare any future prints they have done so they don't think WE'RE they ones who screwed up. See what I'm saying?

If I were the average unaware Client and I had taken my CD of images to CVS and they came back looking like that... I would have thought the photographer was a hack. I suddenly saw why many photographers want full quality control and make their prints available only through their studio.

But I figure I can combat this issue as long as I include good quality prints for them to compare with their 'in-store' prints. Not to mention the following disclaimer, which I've included with my last few CDs:
Disclaimer: in-store and consumer-quality labs yield different results from professional labs and may even vary from order to order depending on their choice of paper, ink, equipment and personnel. Please understand that we cannot control or guarantee the quality of these prints. You, the Client, assume full responsibility for any reprints or enlargements made by anyone other than Images by Moak.

I also include a handy-dandy 'tip sheet' (yes, another tip sheet) with instructions if they do decide to print files on their own, including advice to turn 'OFF' the auto-enhance feature. The average Client may have no clue what they are doing and end up wasting their money, which I'm sure most seasoned photographers would say is their own fault. In fact, I bet their hair would curl if they saw my tip sheet. Shocked I put too much control in the Client's hands, which traditionally, photographers don't like, but at least for now, I'm not greedy. I'm just happy to be able to shoot their photos!


(This post was edited by Jenn M on Oct 24, 2006, 1:33 PM)


Postal Boy
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Oct 24, 2006, 1:57 PM

Post #4 of 41 (1681 views)
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Re: [Jenn M] For those of you who print proofs... [In reply to] Can't Post

If the colors came out bad, take them back and make them re-do them. It probably means their machine is out of calibration.

As far as uploading to MPIX, I think they have the option of mailing a CD or DVD to them.

Also, if you are ordering 4x6 prints, resize them to 4x6 @ 300dpi before you upload them. That way you aren't pushing up a 3-5 meg file when a <1 meg file will do.

Some of the others use a service that allows FTP to transfer files, but it wouldn't be any faster necessarily.

MPIX will color correct, as well, so you are more certain to get a good output.

-Postal


Scott Brooks
Veteran

Oct 24, 2006, 9:06 PM

Post #5 of 41 (1668 views)
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Re: [Jenn M] For those of you who print proofs... [In reply to] Can't Post

Jenn,

Wish I could remember the labs name, but there's one very popular one that charges 10 cents a proof. If I can come up with it I'll get back with you.

Also as mentioned before ... you can resize before uploading to mpix. I save all mine as level 8 in PS and that's plenty for anything they might order.

You talk about giving it away with the tip sheet, etc. ... some people would scream over my plans for '07.

I'm going to just post all my photos on pbase and encourage people to right-click and save them to their computer. I don't care if I ever sell another print again. Couple that with a price increase on my prints and I should be able to accomplish my goal.

I had one wedding where I had a lot of orders and quite frankly it was a PIA. I posted other photos on pbase along with a notation that people could order them from me if they wanted, but were also free to save them to the computer. I left the resolution high enough for them to make a decent 4x6.


Brackish
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Oct 24, 2006, 10:17 PM

Post #6 of 41 (1661 views)
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Post deleted by Brackish [In reply to]

 


DarrenS
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Oct 25, 2006, 10:54 AM

Post #7 of 41 (1650 views)
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Re: [Brackish] For those of you who print proofs... [In reply to] Can't Post

I really don't know how any pro shooter uses walmart et al to print for them. If they knew how digital color works, neither would they. There's way too many hacks in the business, but it's all good because they make real pros look even better. In the old days 'pro' meant you were educated. Today it means you simply charge money instead of doing it for free.

Explaining to client how print color can change from one batch to the next with the intent of being 'informative' and appearing 'forthcoming' is like saying, "I don't know what the hell I'm doing, and I also don't realize that I don't know what the hell I'm doing, but pay me anyway, I'm a professional photographer" LaughLaugh


Postal Boy
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Oct 25, 2006, 12:28 PM

Post #8 of 41 (1642 views)
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Re: [DarrenS] For those of you who print proofs... [In reply to] Can't Post

yup...Walmart is for personal use only...and if they mess up, I can bug them about it.

-Postal


Jenn M
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Oct 25, 2006, 12:43 PM

Post #9 of 41 (1641 views)
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Re: [DarrenS] For those of you who print proofs... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To


Explaining to client how print color can change from one batch to the next with the intent of being 'informative' and appearing 'forthcoming' is like saying, "I don't know what the hell I'm doing, and I also don't realize that I don't know what the hell I'm doing, but pay me anyway, I'm a professional photographer" LaughLaugh



Hmmm, I take personal offense as this comment is obviously directly at me. I'm not going to be an elitist snob regarding our photography services, as is common among the field. I'm offering photography as a service b/c I like it. It's fun, and it's a hell of a lot easier than video! Though we aren't new to the wedding industry, and though I've handled a camera (SLR) for a very long time, we are preceived as 'new' in our market for photography, so I'm going to do whatever I can to generate some leads and interest in using our services, and if this means handing over the files to the Client so THEY can print their own pictures (gasp, how dare I) then that's what I'll do.

Maybe it's b/c I was a videographer first so I'm used to being done with a job when I deliver it. I don't get hung up on the whole after-sales thing. I make sure I get compensated upfront. I don't try to 'trick' my Clients into hiring me with a low booking price and then hold their photos for ransom with high aftersales and extreme copyright limits. I know, that's the traditional photographer's way - shame on me. If I get orders for reprints, etc. then great - I'm prepared and I've been doing my homework and ordering test prints from MPix, WHCC, Bay Photo and Candid 2000. I frankly don't care if the Client decides to print their photos on toilet paper, but I want them to understand and be educated that the choices THEY make will affect the outcome and it has nothing to do with our abilities - in other words, I didn't screw up and deliver a bunch of crap, and/or I'm not trying to trick them by giving them crappy files so they 'have to' order more expensive prints from us b/c I have the 'real' files.

Those prints I got back from CVS were horrible. And the reason I've been testing several local in-store labs is b/c I KNOW this is where the Clients will be taking their files to be printed and I want to see what they are going to see so I can answer any future questions or issues wisely, rather than talking out my butt.

For proofs WE deliver, I want to order prints online - ie. MPix or possibly from some other resources I've recently discovered which are more economical (other online labs). I'm going to test as many as I can until I get the results I want for the price I'm willing to pay (for proofs). But this seemed to take waaaay too long. My original question asks about ordering a large number of proofs online. My point in mentioning Walmart, Sam's, etc. is that, so far, this has been the quickest way to get back a proofs, without having to wait for hours for them to download online and then days for them to be delivered. I've since learned of other options - settings, etc. - to make it go quicker. And I was wondering if it's more common to mail a CD when you start getting into large quantities of prints, or if we were doing something wrong?

I'm here because I want to learn. I ask questions because I want to learn. And the reason I ask them here is because I THOUGHT this would be a safer place to ask what may be a very basic question and not be ridiculed. But I guess I just 'don't know what the hell I'm doing.' Mad


DarrenS
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Oct 25, 2006, 1:01 PM

Post #10 of 41 (1638 views)
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Re: [Jenn M] For those of you who print proofs... [In reply to] Can't Post

It wasn't directed at anybody in particular Jenn. Just amatures posing as pros in general.


DarrenS
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Oct 25, 2006, 1:08 PM

Post #11 of 41 (1634 views)
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Re: [Jenn M] For those of you who print proofs... [In reply to] Can't Post

"and it's a hell of a lot easier than video!"

That opinion has no credibility unless you know both technologies. By your own admission you do not.


garycox
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Oct 25, 2006, 1:19 PM

Post #12 of 41 (1626 views)
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Re: [Jenn M] For those of you who print proofs... [In reply to] Can't Post

We've been printing the proofs ourselves on our Epson 320 printer, basically just contact sheets really rather than proofs and then we use a HD monitor to go through the pictures and let them pick them out from the monitor. The pictures come out better on our Epson 320 than what Walmart, Walgreens, CVS or what any local retailer can do. Their equipment is so far off calibration at local retail and the person making $4.00 and hour who had 30 minutes training running the machine doesn't really care. They are trying to complete for the lowest price.

I have had some good results though from Wolf camera locally but we use Mpix for all our pictures otherwise, they are the same as Millers and have always done an excellent job, we spend the extra $5 to have them overnight and it says "professional paper" on the back which it is done at a "professional" lab.

Even my own personal pictures I send to Mpix. I pay more than at Walmart but it's a world of difference in quality.

... Gary


Jenn M
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Oct 25, 2006, 1:27 PM

Post #13 of 41 (1624 views)
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Re: [garycox] For those of you who print proofs... [In reply to] Can't Post

For MPix, do you submit the files online? Or do you mail a CD. I'm trying to figure out what is more time/cost effective.

We've been submitting online, but haven't done more than approx. 20 files at a time, so far. And it seemed to take a very long time. I've received a few suggestions for settings to make it go faster - reducing from 300 dpi to even 100dpi and image quality 12 down to 10, but I also don't want the quality to suffer.

As of now, it appears that sending the CD is the best method....?


DarrenS
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Oct 25, 2006, 1:29 PM

Post #14 of 41 (1624 views)
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Re: [garycox] For those of you who print proofs... [In reply to] Can't Post

That's a great little printer! The prints from your unit should not only come out better than those retail outfits, they should come out almost exactly as your camera saw them if you're doing everything properly.

Last one to Jenn: Jenn, photography is 'easy' if you don't do your job right. Anything in life could be called 'easy' if you cut all the corners and/or don't bother with education. It's those that are educated and those that don't cut corners that take exception to amatures labeling their job as 'easy'.

Peace.


Jenn M
Veteran


Oct 25, 2006, 1:33 PM

Post #15 of 41 (1619 views)
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Re: [DarrenS] For those of you who print proofs... [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't have to give a damn about what a picture sounds like.
It's easier than video.

Period.

Didn't say it was 'easy. I said it was easier. READ.


DarrenS
Veteran

Oct 25, 2006, 1:44 PM

Post #16 of 41 (1616 views)
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Re: [Jenn M] For those of you who print proofs... [In reply to] Can't Post

Well, I guess the way you do it it's easier, yes Angelic Do it properly and I think you'll change your mind, however.

BTW, a color proof is meant to show the customer what they're going to receive in terms of contrast, density, color balance, tonal width, composition, etc. If you're printing at retail you're not making proofs (other than perhaps to show comp) so you should really stop calling them as such. You're making snapshots just like gramma does with her disposable, cardboard point-n-shoot. Start by profiling your camera in tightly-controlled d50 environment and you can begin to scratch the surface of what making proof output is really all about. Or just call it easy and carry-on as usual.Wink


Jenn M
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Oct 25, 2006, 1:44 PM

Post #17 of 41 (1613 views)
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Re: [DarrenS] For those of you who print proofs... [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm going to expand. If the DJ pronouces the bride's name wrong, I don't have to care with a photo. If the limo breaks down and the bride shows up pissed and I can't get any footage, but I can freeze the one frame where she actually smiles (albeit sarcastically), I don't have to care with a photo. If the band's singer is on the verge of losing her voice, I don't have to care with a picture. If the best man curses during his toast, offending half the room, I don't have to care with a picture. If the priest give a 30 minute homily and bores the sh*t out of everyone, I don't have to care with a picture. In fact, I can get nice and comfy in that back pew and wait for it to be over.

If the DJ plays the wrong song, I don't have to care with a picture. If the priest and/or groom is no where to be found before the ceremony starts and I have less than 2 minutes to convince them to wear a mic b/c that's why they paid me over $3K as opposed to the $995 guy with camera sound during vows... I don't have to care with a picture. If the priest bans all outside microphones, I don't have to care with a picture.

If no one dances at the reception and it's boring as hell but the bride and groom forgets that fact, I can shoot 50 photos duirng the same dance or 50 photos over the course of 5 dances - I don't have to care with a picture.

If the a-hole emcee hands off the microphone to the best man all of a sudden while I'm filming the bride hugging grandma on the other side of the room and I miss the first few lines of his toast, I don't have to care with a picture.

If the band decides to break into a parent dance during the only 5 minutes of the day I try to go pee, even though they said they weren't going to do that. I can have them pose on the corner of the dance floor and get the same effect with a picture.

When poeple put their heads together and smile for the still camera, but grimace and run from the video camera...

Dude, it's easier than video.


DarrenS
Veteran

Oct 25, 2006, 1:50 PM

Post #18 of 41 (1610 views)
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Re: [Jenn M] For those of you who print proofs... [In reply to] Can't Post

I can't get Jeff Foxworthy's voice out of my head after that one. Instead of 'I don't have to care with a picture'... Laugh

Sorry.


Jenn M
Veteran


Oct 25, 2006, 1:54 PM

Post #19 of 41 (1607 views)
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Re: [DarrenS] For those of you who print proofs... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
If you're printing at retail you're not making proofs (other than perhaps to show comp) so you should really stop calling them as such.



I'M NOT PRINTING MY PROOFS AT WALMART SO GET OVER IT. I did it simply as a test to see what they are going to see because I'm not stupid - I KNOW where they, including grandma, are going to go for their reprints if they choose to do it themselves, which is why I want to give them the best quality - so they have something to compare it to. Read my reply to Postal. I explained it.

I submit any prints the Clients pays for (which includes wedding proofs) to MPix, but upload was taking forever, so hence, my original question - how do other photographers submit their files, esp vast quatities??? Online or via the mail.

Geez.


DarrenS
Veteran

Oct 25, 2006, 1:57 PM

Post #20 of 41 (1605 views)
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Re: [Jenn M] For those of you who print proofs... [In reply to] Can't Post

You're missing something. When photographers learn how to be photographers we learn how to do things like 'dodge' and 'burn', among other things. It's more than releasing a shutter. In fact your argument could have some teeth if you only mentioned NLEs. But you didn't.

I don't expect to see posts here by yourself anytime soon talking about how happy you are with your consitent color output in your photography efforts. A last little veiled tip...use the acronym NCC when printing Wink. Else you'll forever be dissappointed.


Postal Boy
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Oct 25, 2006, 2:02 PM

Post #21 of 41 (1601 views)
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Re: [Jenn M] For those of you who print proofs... [In reply to] Can't Post

Wow Jenn! You...um...have it all worked out, eh? BlushTongue

-Postal


DarrenS
Veteran

Oct 25, 2006, 2:04 PM

Post #22 of 41 (1601 views)
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Re: [Jenn M] For those of you who print proofs... [In reply to] Can't Post

I use an internet connection with fairly fast upstream bandwidth to avoid the cdrom method. 800Kb/s.


Jenn M
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Oct 25, 2006, 2:05 PM

Post #23 of 41 (1599 views)
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Re: [DarrenS] For those of you who print proofs... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
You're missing something. When photographers learn how to be photographers we learn how to do things like 'dodge' and 'burn', among other things. It's more than releasing a shutter. In fact your argument could have some teeth if you only mentioned NLEs. But you didn't.



What does that have to do with how long it take to upload files for printing online?

And as a matter of fact, if I'm going to take the time to make adjustments during Raw conversion, Neat Image and CS2, I want it printed properly. If I'm putting all that time into editing an image to get the effect I want, whether it be cropping, dodging/burning, contrasting, noise reduction, sharpening, color effects, blending 2 images, warming, cooling - whatever... it's a waste for me to hand it over to Walmart or any other (uncalibrated) lab. I was discussing proofs.

For what we call 'Artistic Prints' - anything other than the proof - the Client can only order those through us. No file is available for reprints or enlargements. I want to make sure they are printed properly or else what's the point.


Jenn M
Veteran


Oct 25, 2006, 2:06 PM

Post #24 of 41 (1597 views)
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Re: [DarrenS] For those of you who print proofs... [In reply to] Can't Post

do you use FTP method?


DarrenS
Veteran

Oct 25, 2006, 2:12 PM

Post #25 of 41 (1592 views)
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Re: [Jenn M] For those of you who print proofs... [In reply to] Can't Post

In a roundabout way, yes. I use Workstream with Bertynsky's fine (finest) lab in Toronto for large prints. Smaller ones don't leave home.

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