VideoUniversity.com
Home Free Library Store
Free Catalog

Please support VU by making your B&H purchases and links through this B&H ad. Doesn't cost a penny more. <a href="http://www.bhphotovideo.com?BI=603&KBID=1017"><IMG src="/images/flash_ads/videoUniv2_revised_conv.jpg" alt="B&H Photo" width="260" height="70"></a>
Video University Sponsor
Advertisement

See The New VU Postcard Catalog

To post in the forums see the Forum Guidelines.

Join or Renew Today.
New Benefits for all VU Members
Forum Guidelines and FAQ
Main Index Search Posts
Who's Online Log In


Home: Video University Forums: Digital Photography for Videographers:
Giving the Client 'unedited' images

 

 


Jenn M
Veteran


Dec 7, 2006, 12:35 PM

Post #1 of 17 (912 views)
Shortcut
Giving the Client 'unedited' images Can't Post

Well, I'm faced with an interesting dilemma... I find myself wondering if we're taking the right approach by giving our Clients all their images (unedited, except for some minor exposure and color correction - aka proof images) for their own use as they see fit.

We shot some engagement photos for my sis-in-law's friend. She already has a photographer for her wedding and we aren't available anyway. We did it as a favor, to get more samples and practice. In exchange for 'letting us' shoot the photos, we gave her the CD of converted jpegs (proofs) with permission for reprinting, etc.

The images are decent - print quality, but I have since edited a few to really make them 'pop' and I think they look even better. However, she didn't bother to order any through us (no one has yet) and instead opted to make her own book through the Kodak gallery website. My sis-in-law said that she (the bride) is showing them to everyone and is going to give this book to her fiance as a wedding gift. I was kind of surprised - their wedding isn't exactly low end, so it seemed odd to give such a basic gift (basic, of course, in my opinion). My sis-in-law also said that everyone who has seen them is very impressed and she (the bride) is telling all her friends about us, which was also the point of us doing it - to get our name out there.

So here's my dilemma. I have to admit, I was a little disappointed to hear she made the basic book with the basic images and she is now showing that to everyone and giving it as a gift, when the edited images are sooo much more impressive. BUT does it really matter if she's satisfied with them and everyone she shows them to thinks they're fine (even great)? My sister in law used the word "beautiful." And apparently the groom was very happy with them, which means a lot because he was tough to shoot - very stiff and convinced he takes a bad picture (which, by the way, he doesn't).

This brings me back to what I've always thought about photography - the average consumer's expectations are much lower than we think. I've seen people gush over certain photos that I look at and think, "Are you kidding me? It's out of focus, it's a snapshot, it's poorly composed, the lighting is awful..." But they are looking at it in an entirely different way. They are assigning personal meaning and value.

When we decided to do this (offer photography), we wanted to keep it simple - and one way to do that was to give the Client the images and let them deal with it (unless they wanted to pay us to produce them), but now I'm wondering if I'm shorting our potential... Am I throwing away the opporunity to make better photographs and therefore more income? BUT I guess it depends on what you believe makes a better photograph - the original image or the editing...

I like the idea of the client having access to their photos b/c some shots may have value that I don't see - so if they want them, they have them. I just wish they cared more about quality and asked us to produce the ones that they are going to show to everyone. Kind of like the edited video vs. raw footage. Some footage may be funny or entertaining to look at once or twice, but the best stuff is what they will show everyone - that's the stuff you want to polish and make it as good as it can be.

I just can't believe no one has ordered prints through us yet... I've shown them edited images, and they have responded very well - expressed interest. But after they get the images, I don't hear from them. And our prices are very reasonable compared to what I've seen other photogs charge. But still, no takers. Of course, it may be different when it comes to their weddings, but so far everyone has sacrificed quality for cost - taking the cheaper route and printing basic images themselves at Walmart or online.

I wonder how much our approach (in what we give the Client) will change over time...


(This post was edited by Jenn M on Dec 7, 2006, 12:37 PM)


Brackish
Veteran


Dec 7, 2006, 12:52 PM

Post #2 of 17 (904 views)
Shortcut
Post deleted by Brackish [In reply to]

 


karen
User

Dec 7, 2006, 1:08 PM

Post #3 of 17 (899 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Jenn M] Giving the Client 'unedited' images [In reply to] Can't Post

hi jenn,

sounds like we are in the same boat.. I did my first cheapo photog. wedding in Oct ...fixed up many shots in p.s blah, blah ...
..uploaded to a very nice personalized website were they can order pics, and watch a moving slideshow et....and the b&g have not
yet purchased either..plus I didn't collect any emails prior to the wedding.....but your right about the differences between how we 'photogs' look at indiv. shots/pics and how the bride looks at it. I think it's more of 'storytelling' for them, so they are going to want the shot of aunt sallie even though she's a bit blurred and picking her teeth..Tongue ...however, i do believe your best shots [composition etc..] are noticed by 'potential'
brides who may hire you.

I just did my second cheapo wedding and i'm not spending as much time p.s the pics. I will upload all of them to a website for
the b&g to order and view. I would say don't bother w/ p.s the pics ..get 'em right onto their website , and then if they choose
to purchase certain shots, p.s those and really make 'em pop! Sly ..in the meantime, take your best 20 or so shots and p.s them
and get those onto your own website for future brides.

I really do love photographing weddings and def. want to do more of them!
thanks,
Karen


Brackish
Veteran


Dec 7, 2006, 2:59 PM

Post #4 of 17 (884 views)
Shortcut
Post deleted by Brackish [In reply to]

 


Jeko
Enthusiast


Dec 7, 2006, 3:30 PM

Post #5 of 17 (882 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Jenn M] Giving the Client 'unedited' images [In reply to] Can't Post

Jenn,

First off, always put your best foot forward. I mean, make each shot that you deliver something you can be proud of.... else, it just might be seen by the prospects your loosing. Of course there are exceptions, but you should generally try to give out or display only work that meets your minimum quality level. If you dole out images that are substandard, the prospects will see them and form their opinion of you from them. Think of it this way: If you were looking for a videographer and saw some poor footage of an enormously cute kid --you would still be forced to notice the poor camera work, right?!


As for print sales, you need to better define your business model.... Are you focused on selling prints?? If so, don't give the images away on disk. There is not a wrong or right here, just choice. True, some clients will narrow photographer selections down based on whether images are included or available. I have seen some that offer them immediately (and sell NO prints), some that delay it (1 year, them client can buy the negatives or files), and a few that NEVER make them available (they have MAXIMUM prints sold - especially if the negatives are destroyed / disappear after 3 or 4 months).

So ask yourself, which photographer are you?? Where does your income get created????

Jeko

Sony VX2100's, iRivers, M-audio 24/96, Canon 5Ds/20Ds (and too much glass), Vegas6, PhotoShop CS3, Lightroom, etc.


RustyB
Veteran


Dec 7, 2006, 4:53 PM

Post #6 of 17 (878 views)
Shortcut
Re: Giving the Client 'unedited' images [In reply to] Can't Post

I honestly don't think it's a load of digital effects and digital filters that separates the $4000 videog/photog from the $1300 videog/photog.

This is why I'm opting to stay away from wedding photo. Photography, in particular wedding photo, these days seems to revolve completely around your PhotoShop tactics, and very little about your talent in taking pictures. That's the impression I get from reading photo forums, and from the images I see posted.

My sister regularly sends me pictures of my 2-year old niece, and I've never noticed a lack of PhotoShop processing. They're taken with a Fuji digital point & shoot, and aside from the shadows caused by the built in flash, and the poor framing, you wouldn't know they weren't taken with an expensive prosumer DSLR. If someone sat down for days PhotoShop'n these pics, I wouldn't be the least bit interested in paying extra for them. I think the same applies to wedding photos (and wedding video). It's not art IMHO...it's a service, and you have to do it efficiently as possible. There are much better things to do than spend my life sitting in front of a computer eating away at profit doing unnecessary editing.




Faith Poison Wedding Films Blog
Intergalactic Award-Winning Epic-Cinematic Wedding New-Doc Style Indie Fusion Bridal Movies on Hi-Definition Blu-Ray Disc


karen
User

Dec 7, 2006, 5:59 PM

Post #7 of 17 (866 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Brackish] Giving the Client 'unedited' images [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Hi, karen.

Did you get any feedback from the couple at all as to how they liked
the pics you did? Did you provide them the images on CD in addition
to the online gallery?



hi brack,

yes, the couple liked the photos..her contract states that she must purchase any album then she'll
receive all hi-rez images on cd. The reason I did this, is basically I charged $700 and I rented my equipment
[no funds yet to buy] for around $500. I needed the experience. Crazy

i have a bride who wants to book me for her wedding next Oct. who has seen my photos from this wedding.

My new photo pkgs include everything in the kitchen sink..just so i can gain more experience.
what are you all charging for your packages...i know it varies ..but just curious
thanks,
Karen


Postal Boy
Veteran


Dec 7, 2006, 8:22 PM

Post #8 of 17 (854 views)
Shortcut
Re: [RustyB] Giving the Client 'unedited' images [In reply to] Can't Post

True Rusty...I think that there IS art, though, if you look for it. And it doesn't come from PS. Most wedding images are very standard (although some are just shot poorly). It is the few images that "pop" where everyone says "I never would have thought of taking that shot...and it looks FABULOUS) that sets some photographers apart. I think videographers do well with that since they are used to getting video angles and shots to "tell a story" or something...

-Postal


AlanB
Veteran


Dec 9, 2006, 9:16 PM

Post #9 of 17 (810 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Jenn M] Giving the Client 'unedited' images [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
the average consumer's expectations are much lower than we think. I've seen people gush over certain photos that I look at and think, "Are you kidding me? It's out of focus, it's a snapshot, it's poorly composed, the lighting is awful..." But they are looking at it in an entirely different way. They are assigning personal meaning and value.



Hi Jenn. I am sure you have come across the same mentality with video. They are looking at the content. It may be a bit out of focus or poorly composed or the lighting isn't up to snuff, but it is something they grasp onto and feel. Makes me wonder why I spend so much time on color correction and all that stuff. Crazy

Take care Jenn, you will be just fine will all of this.

Alan


Jenn M
Veteran


Dec 10, 2006, 1:20 AM

Post #10 of 17 (805 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Brackish] Giving the Client 'unedited' images [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

In Reply To
I just can't believe no one has ordered prints through us yet.

Are you wondering why they haven't ordered prints that you have done more extensive editing to? Or are you wondering why they haven't ordered any basic proofs? How have you been providing the images? On CD?



Hi Brack,

I was just a little surprised b/c several of them said how much they liked the idea of us being able to edit the images - remove unwanted objects, soften skin, employ color effects... yet none of them opted to buy prints from us. They all took the disk and made their own prints. The engagment shoots were provided on CD. The wedding on Data DVD.

Especially my sis-in-law's friend. She originally asked how much we would charge for a sitting fee, but I told her we were looking for samples and therefore wouldn't charge a sitting fee, but she could buy prints through us - and I'm referring to edited, cleaned up images (softened, dodged and burned, etc) However, I did give her the disc of proofs with minimal editing (we correct exposure and color and run a general sharpening action on all images), so she just made her own prints from that. If it were me, I would have been grateful enough to order a print or two, but that's just my dumb way of thinking. I don't begrudge her - I AM the one who said I'd do it for free. But I was just a little disappointed.


Jenn M
Veteran


Dec 10, 2006, 1:23 AM

Post #11 of 17 (804 views)
Shortcut
Re: [karen] Giving the Client 'unedited' images [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I would say don't bother w/ p.s the pics ..get 'em right onto their website , and then if they choose
to purchase certain shots, p.s those and really make 'em pop! Sly ..in the meantime, take your best 20 or so shots and p.s them
and get those onto your own website for future brides.



Hi Karen,

You described basically what our general plan is right now. However, I'm growing increasingly more interested in album design, so it may eventually change. Originally, I wanted to avoid albums like the plague - didn't want to get into learning all the stuff - fear of the unknown, and all that. But as I see more and play more, I'm kind of digging it.

But just like we had to do with video, I have to build my confidence so I'm not shy about asking to be paid for my efforts. Right now, the main objective is just to get the word out, so I feel like we're giving a lot away for nothing. I just have to remind myself it's all part of the plan...


Jenn M
Veteran


Dec 10, 2006, 1:39 AM

Post #12 of 17 (803 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Jeko] Giving the Client 'unedited' images [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Jeko,

You're right - I'm in the middle of trying to figure out what our biz model/plan/goals are. I'm growing increasingly more tired of video, so photo is looking better and better, so I feel like I want to invest myself more in that right now. But maybe once we lighten our backlog (video) I'll feel differently and want to streamline photography again.

Originally I wanted to offer photography in a more simple, practical sense - get paid upfront and give them as much as possible with as little time invested later (ie. avoiding albums and reprint orders whenever possible - thereby giving them all the images and sending them on their way). But as I learn more techniques in photo shop and album design, I'm starting to re-evaluate that strategy and I'm itching for the opportunity to do some post work.

So we'll see how it goes... Of course, it's easy to want it when you don't have it, now isn't it... Smile


Jenn M
Veteran


Dec 10, 2006, 1:43 AM

Post #13 of 17 (802 views)
Shortcut
Re: [RustyB] Giving the Client 'unedited' images [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
There are much better things to do than spend my life sitting in front of a computer eating away at profit doing unnecessary editing.


I agree, Rusty. That's why I'm looking forward to the day when we can command more fees upfront and then not have to worry about after-sales. That's really my 'hope' for this endeavour. I don't want to become a scheming photographer who withholds the Clients images, almost as if for ransom. But I also want to offer a nice product and be compensated for it accordingly.

I guess I should be happy that my 'raw' images stand up to the scrutiny of the viewer - I suppose that means I don't have to rely on the fancy effects. Does that make me a better photographer? I hope so... at least, eventually.


Jenn M
Veteran


Dec 10, 2006, 1:55 AM

Post #14 of 17 (801 views)
Shortcut
Re: [AlanB] Giving the Client 'unedited' images [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks Alan.

It's a good lesson and/or reminder to us of what is more important to the Client. You're right - it's a lot like video. It's easy to shoot for the editor and/or competition, but really, it's the Client who is paying you to capture their memories, which may not necessarily be demo worthy or competition material, but still priceless to them nonetheless.

Like I said above, I suppose I should be flattered that my 'raw' images were considered worthy enough for the bride-to-be to have printed and made into a book to give to her husband-to-be as a gift. (I just might have been a tad more 'flattered' if she had paid me to do it.) Wink


RustyB
Veteran


Dec 10, 2006, 4:08 AM

Post #15 of 17 (791 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Jenn M] Giving the Client 'unedited' images [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
....That's why I'm looking forward to the day when we can command more fees upfront and then not have to worry about after-sales.....



That's why I hope to charge almost exclusively for MY TIME later next year, when it comes to photo. (My "free wedding video" business will hopefully be shut down by 2008.) I wanna get paid for my pictures...not my PhotoShop time spent sitting on my arse....I'm NOT a computer graphic artist...and if I'm driving a forklift during the day to pay my bills, there's no reason I should have to spend my nights working for free in front of a computer, like I do for video. Of course, for the next 12 months, I expect to be working for less than the cost of film....since I dumped digital, trying to build my portfolio. Cool

That said, I can still accept a certain amount of digital enhancement to pictures taken with a DSLR. Otherwise they seem to lack character, which you would normally get with real film brand/type/format. With my little ancient floppy disk digital camera, I add unsharp mask, noise reduction, etc, for a more appealing image.




Faith Poison Wedding Films Blog
Intergalactic Award-Winning Epic-Cinematic Wedding New-Doc Style Indie Fusion Bridal Movies on Hi-Definition Blu-Ray Disc


DarrenS
Veteran

Dec 10, 2006, 4:18 AM

Post #16 of 17 (791 views)
Shortcut
Re: [RustyB] Giving the Client 'unedited' images [In reply to] Can't Post

Personally I agree with you 100%. But then again, I'm a guy. Plus I'm a guy who doesn't even want to get married, let alone spend thousands on wedding photos.Laugh As a wedding photographer one has to think about the woman and how she feels. You have to visualise being a woman and having a lot of money to invest in her big wedding day memories. This comes easy for me as my new studio is located above a bridal store. I'm around soon-to-be brides all day and I see how much money they spend on clothes and stuff, and how excited they are about the whole ordeal. They're very excited.

I will never give my images away on disk because that's not what self-respecting photographers do. If one does that they're nothing more than a laborer. It's got nothing to do with the extra income. Even tho it's 'just' wedding photography I still don't want to lower myself to a mere laborer. Laborers show up at work on a harley with a hammer in their back pocket. They don't have tens of thousands invested in professional equipment and it's easy to pay-off the loan for the hammer. Plus hammers don't depreciate and rarely need replacing. When they do, they just buy another hammer. Hammers haven't changed in decades.

Anyone who thinks a photographer is 'scheming' by retaining rights to his/her work hasn't been exposed to the business of photography before, obviously. Photography, perhaps, but not the business of photography. And I bet they won't succeed...or at least they won't operate a very profitable business in the long term. Most photographers fail, I've been told, and that's becasuse they simply aren't good business people. It's not because of the lack of business...there's plenty of business. It's a very robust market. They're still regarding it as a hobby...not collecting/remitting taxes, not making capital investment, not paying insurance, rent, etc. They're thinking for the moment or for the job at hand, and not much further in my opinion.


DarrenS
Veteran

Dec 10, 2006, 4:33 AM

Post #17 of 17 (787 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Jenn M] Giving the Client 'unedited' images [In reply to] Can't Post

Going on your words posted here alone Jenn, it seems to me your plan of attack is being directed by what you want, not by what the market wants. Methinks you're doing yourself a disfavor by letting that happen, if that's infact happening.

For example...don't avoid selling albums because you don't want to learn about them. Avoid them because you've ascertained there's no demand for them in the market. Of course, if you have a signifigant other who's bringing home the bacon I suppose it doesn't matter either way, but if you need to actually make your business turn a nice profit you should look at the market and do whatever it tells you to do, regardless of what you 'want'.

Just my friendly $.02.

-Darren

P.S. If you ever get a chance to shoot something more signifigant than a wedding you'll suddenly understand why it's not cool to give your images away for free on a cdrom. The catch-22 is if you always give your images away for free you'll likely never get the chance to shoot anything more signifigant than weddings. Anyone can shoot pictures. Anyone. It's reputation and presentation that sets you apart and gets you the finer jobs, however. Pretty hard to command respect in the industry if you give your work away for free.