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Home: Video University Forums: Digital Photography for Videographers:
front or back lit

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Shadow
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Oct 24, 2007, 8:18 PM

Post #1 of 26 (1176 views)
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front or back lit	Can't Post

If you're doing photography and it is sunny outside and there's no where to shade. Do you put people facing the sun to front light (and hope they don't squint too much and the shadows arent' too nasty) or do you back light, meter for the background and blast the flash to compensate?

Scott Brooks
Veteran

Oct 24, 2007, 8:49 PM

Post #2 of 26 (1171 views)
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Re: [Shadow] front or back lit [In reply to]	Can't Post

If those are your only choices ... everything that I've read says go with #2.

Shadow
Veteran

Oct 24, 2007, 9:01 PM

Post #3 of 26 (1163 views)
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Re: [Sparky] front or back lit [In reply to]	Can't Post

Well the other choice is under a tree with nasty shadows. I had a heck of a time trying to even that lighting out and ended up with a real flash look to the photos. My ideal spot would be open shade with no back lighting but I don't seem to have that option frequently.

Thanks for the input - would you still pick back lit over mixed crappy tree shadows?

Brackish
Veteran

Oct 24, 2007, 9:02 PM

Post #4 of 26 (1163 views)
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Re: [Shadow] front or back lit [In reply to]	Can't Post

The shots I've taken where the subjects are looking into the sun
has them pretty squinty-eyed so ........

------------------------------------------------------------
HISTORY'S CLEVEREST FILM LINES

BERNARD: Howdy! My name is Bernard Posner.
CINDY: Oh, really?
BERNARD: Really.
CINDY: Is that supposed to mean something?
BERNARD: Around these parts, you hear the name Posner quite a bit.
CINDY: That's very interesting. You know, you hear my name quite a bit, and not just around here either.
BERNARD: No foolin'? What's your name?
CINDY: Up.
BERNARD: Up? That's an odd name. What's your last name?
CINDY: Yours. Up yours!

Shadow
Veteran

Oct 24, 2007, 9:03 PM

Post #5 of 26 (1161 views)
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Re: [Brackish] front or back lit [In reply to]	Can't Post

Yeah, I hate that but I'm surprised how often I see photographers do this, so I thought maybe I was missing something.

It seems to tick people off too.

Brackish
Veteran

Oct 24, 2007, 9:37 PM

Post #6 of 26 (1156 views)
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Re: [Shadow] front or back lit [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

It seems to tick people off too.

What are you saying here? That the sun in their eyes irritates the
subjects at the time of the shoot?

------------------------------------------------------------
HISTORY'S CLEVEREST FILM LINES

BERNARD: Howdy! My name is Bernard Posner.
CINDY: Oh, really?
BERNARD: Really.
CINDY: Is that supposed to mean something?
BERNARD: Around these parts, you hear the name Posner quite a bit.
CINDY: That's very interesting. You know, you hear my name quite a bit, and not just around here either.
BERNARD: No foolin'? What's your name?
CINDY: Up.
BERNARD: Up? That's an odd name. What's your last name?
CINDY: Yours. Up yours!

Shadow
Veteran

Oct 24, 2007, 9:46 PM

Post #7 of 26 (1154 views)
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Re: [Brackish] front or back lit [In reply to]	Can't Post

indeed!

I'm editing a video right now where the photographer is telling the groom to open his eyes and he said he can't because the sun is too bright.
I've seen this a lot - I don't know why people do this, I guess so they don't have to fiddle with the correct exposure for back lighting.

szerangue
Veteran

Oct 24, 2007, 11:01 PM

Post #8 of 26 (1144 views)
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Re: [Shadow] front or back lit [In reply to]	Can't Post

I had a problem with just that this past weekend. The photo came out pretty crappy but managed to salvage it a bit because I shot raw and had some lattitude to work with. But I didn't shoot it right, did not expose it right, did not have a strong enough flash for fill, trying to shoot too far away, etc...
Miracle Pictures
"If it's a good picture, it's a Miracle!"

"Life Productions, coming out of the dark, into the light"
4EVER GROUP AFFILIATE

Shadow
Veteran

Oct 24, 2007, 11:22 PM

Post #9 of 26 (1141 views)
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Re: [szerangue] front or back lit [In reply to]	Can't Post

I've run into that too, I have the 580 canon flash and did a group of 6 people, It was enough to even out the light but the picture looked very "flash" like. I think the ttl read for the lightest part then said "ok, we're good" and where the sun hit the white clothing that was properly exposed.
What I had to do was push my flash up quite a bit - 1 or 2 full stops in order to even out the light.

Postal Boy
Veteran

Oct 25, 2007, 11:45 AM

Post #10 of 26 (1107 views)
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Re: [Shadow] front or back lit [In reply to]	Can't Post

I would not use any automatic settings. TTL is fine for some things, but not in this situation. You need more control. If you have a reflector that can be a life-saver. You can put their backs at an angle to the sun, then bounce light back at their faces. That way they aren't looking into the sun, but the sun can do a highlight on their head/shoulders. Then the reflector can take the edge off of the shadowy faces. A reflector of some kind can be a great investment. I have a gold/white two sided. I usually wish that I had bought a silver/white, because although the gold gives a nice warm look to the image, in bright sunlight sometimes it just "overdoes" it a bit.

Here is an example in full sunlight. Not the best, but he isn't really squinting, and the shadows aren't bad.

BTW...what happened to inline attachments? I can't find anything about it anymore?

-Postal

Timothy Harry
Veteran

Oct 25, 2007, 12:29 PM

Post #11 of 26 (1099 views)
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Re: [Shadow] front or back lit [In reply to]	Can't Post

there was a product i saw at the local photo store that helped with white balance. you put this cap thing over your lens and shot a picture, then you used that picture you shot to set the WB. I am not sure what it is called, but it was not too horribly expensive. Anyone know what the neame of this product was, if I call the guy to ask, I think im gonna have to buy it and im broke :)

Tim Harry

Bandwagon Media
Dallas, TX

Postal Boy
Veteran

Oct 25, 2007, 12:49 PM

Post #12 of 26 (1096 views)
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Re: [Timothy Harry] front or back lit [In reply to]	Can't Post

It is an expo disk. What you actually do is go stand where your subject will be, point the camera towards where YOU will be and take the picture. It captures the light that will be hitting your subject and bouncing back towards the camera and you use that info to set white balance in the custom white balance setting.

-Postal

Shadow
Veteran

Oct 25, 2007, 2:00 PM

Post #13 of 26 (1086 views)
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Re: [Timothy Harry] front or back lit [In reply to]	Can't Post

You can get those on e-bay fairly cheap

HOpe this link works, if not go into ebay and search for white balance filter
http://search.ebay.ca/...filter&category0=

I used the top of a tupperware container once that was opague. It does work very well.

I have troubles with auto white balance - see the picture here on my post from a while ago - her shirt didn't have blue in it but it comesout that way
http://www.videouniversity.com/...;;page=unread#unread

I did post somewhere some before and after pictures using custom white balance but I can't find the thread. If you're good at searching you might be able to find it.

Shadow
Veteran

Oct 25, 2007, 2:25 PM

Post #14 of 26 (1078 views)
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Re: [Postal Boy] front or back lit [In reply to]	Can't Post

I normally put the camera into manual but haven't ventured much with the flash outside of pumping it up or down to make the look I want.
Is there an easy to do this or do you just test to get the right look?

I do have a reflector and love it! For larger groups though it is too small.

Scott Brooks
Veteran

Oct 25, 2007, 10:16 PM

Post #15 of 26 (1055 views)
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Re: [Shadow] front or back lit [In reply to]	Can't Post

Shadow ... try this thread. http://photography-on-the.net/...wthread.php?t=396737

Tim ... if you're really broke ... go out and purchase a can of Pringles and use the lid. That concept has been around for a very long time.

I used to own a full size V-5000 (think that was it) hi8, Sony. The lens cap was white and translucent. You pointed it at the light source and hit the white balance button. Maybe it wasn't the same as using a white card, but it was pretty darned close.

Brackish
Veteran

Oct 25, 2007, 10:20 PM

Post #16 of 26 (1052 views)
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Re: [Sparky] front or back lit [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

go out and purchase a can of Pringles and use the lid. That concept has been around for a very long time.

I wonder if you could use a translucent cover - maybe domed - over the lens to convert your camera into an incident light meter?

------------------------------------------------------------
HISTORY'S CLEVEREST FILM LINES

BERNARD: Howdy! My name is Bernard Posner.
CINDY: Oh, really?
BERNARD: Really.
CINDY: Is that supposed to mean something?
BERNARD: Around these parts, you hear the name Posner quite a bit.
CINDY: That's very interesting. You know, you hear my name quite a bit, and not just around here either.
BERNARD: No foolin'? What's your name?
CINDY: Up.
BERNARD: Up? That's an odd name. What's your last name?
CINDY: Yours. Up yours!

Shadow
Veteran

Oct 25, 2007, 10:34 PM

Post #17 of 26 (1052 views)
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Re: [Sparky] front or back lit [In reply to]	Can't Post

Thanks Sparky
I understand the concept and how it work. I was going to add a pic but I can't seem to do that anymore. Hmm, anyone else missing that feature?

The problem I have had in the past is in uneven light - group of people standing under a tree on a bright day and nasty shadows on the face. I expose for the background and throw on the flash.
But the ttl in the flash sees the white of the shirt and says "ok I'm good" and stops at that point. The part of the white shirt where the sun hits it is properly exposed, the shadowed areas remain dark. So from there I have to add more power to the flash until I am able to even out the shadows.

Polarizers work well too I find for making the sky pretty and the colours look nice. I think at one point on the forum someone wondered if polarizers threw off skin tones but I've had great success with mine.

Thanks for the link. :) That's a good forum, I haven't been on it in ages.

Sparky if you want examples of what I'm talking about I can show you but don't want them on the open forum.

H

Brackish
Veteran

Oct 25, 2007, 10:49 PM

Post #18 of 26 (1051 views)
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Re: [Shadow] front or back lit [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

I was going to add a pic but I can't seem to do that anymore. Hmm, anyone else missing that feature?

Me. I wanted to post some pics I took of the lunar eclipse.

------------------------------------------------------------
HISTORY'S CLEVEREST FILM LINES

BERNARD: Howdy! My name is Bernard Posner.
CINDY: Oh, really?
BERNARD: Really.
CINDY: Is that supposed to mean something?
BERNARD: Around these parts, you hear the name Posner quite a bit.
CINDY: That's very interesting. You know, you hear my name quite a bit, and not just around here either.
BERNARD: No foolin'? What's your name?
CINDY: Up.
BERNARD: Up? That's an odd name. What's your last name?
CINDY: Yours. Up yours!

Shadow
Veteran

Oct 25, 2007, 11:29 PM

Post #19 of 26 (1049 views)
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Re: [Brackish] front or back lit [In reply to]	Can't Post

there was a lunar eclypse? Blush

Postal Boy
Veteran

Oct 26, 2007, 9:27 AM

Post #20 of 26 (1022 views)
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Re: [Shadow] front or back lit [In reply to]	Can't Post

The blue in the photo you posted looks more like a daylight color cast (the light is usually blue, but there were mixed shadow/daylight combos in it)...

As far as uneven shadows, that is why I mentioned that I never use TTL in a shadowy environment...the camera can be tricked too easily. I just set up, expose for the background (about 1 stop under), then set people up and adjust the flash so that it gives me the proper lighting.

Here is an example of a photo I recently did in the mixed shadows of a tree (the shadows weren't too bad, but the flash still made a difference)

Shadow
Veteran

Oct 29, 2007, 1:57 PM

Post #21 of 26 (992 views)
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Re: [Postal Boy] front or back lit [In reply to]	Can't Post

That came out nicely Postal.

I had a shoot yesterday they wanted in front of a stream nasty lighting on their faces, they were front lit with tree shadows all over them, it was BRIGHT behind them too and he was wearing a baseball hat. Mad

It looked bad, but I have noticed that people generally if they want a shot they want it for a particular reason. Then they'll still choose that one for an enlargement over one that is just a perfect shot.

I think that sometimes clients don't care as much about a technically perfect photo as we do, as long as they can see everything they want to and it is the picture they wanted to take they love it. Unsure

Brackish
Veteran

Oct 29, 2007, 5:13 PM

Post #22 of 26 (988 views)
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Re: [Shadow] front or back lit [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

I think that sometimes clients don't care as much about a technically perfect photo as we do, as long as they can see everything they want to and it is the picture they wanted to take they love it.

Interesting.

------------------------------------------------------------
HISTORY'S CLEVEREST FILM LINES

BERNARD: Howdy! My name is Bernard Posner.
CINDY: Oh, really?
BERNARD: Really.
CINDY: Is that supposed to mean something?
BERNARD: Around these parts, you hear the name Posner quite a bit.
CINDY: That's very interesting. You know, you hear my name quite a bit, and not just around here either.
BERNARD: No foolin'? What's your name?
CINDY: Up.
BERNARD: Up? That's an odd name. What's your last name?
CINDY: Yours. Up yours!

WLR
User

Oct 29, 2007, 10:28 PM

Post #23 of 26 (974 views)
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Re: [Shadow] front or back lit [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

and blast the flash to compensate?

Nah....Never "blast the flash" Your subject will look like they just has a drink made from cobalt-60.
Start with a 0 compensation if youre in ettl mode like with a Canon 580 flash, and increase the flash output
2/3 of a stop at a time until the shadows are reduced to an acceptable density.
Also watch that histogram and shoot raw.

Friends don't let friends shoot jpeg.

Shadow
Veteran

Oct 30, 2007, 10:04 AM

Post #24 of 26 (970 views)
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Re: [WLR] front or back lit [In reply to]	Can't Post

That's what I meant by blast the flash. Standard ettl won't work in mixed lighting to even out the shadows. Pumping up the flash until it blends it what I've had to do.

Why can't it just always be overcast?

WLR
User

Oct 30, 2007, 7:26 PM

Post #25 of 26 (962 views)
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Re: [Shadow] front or back lit [In reply to]	Can't Post

Just wait for winter. They'll be plenty of overcast.

Friends don't let friends shoot jpeg.

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