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Home: Video University Forums: Filmmakers & Screenwriters:
Time-lapse video gear

 

 


richardhiggs
Novice

Aug 22, 2005, 1:00 PM

Post #1 of 22 (3342 views)
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Time-lapse video gear Can't Post

I am planning to make a 30 minute film from time-lapse video images. I need the resulting video to be suitable for conversion to film for theatre projection and/or for direct video projection. I know next to nothing about video technology, and this is my beginning attempt to educate myself. I need advice for the following questions:

1. what qualities are desirable in a video camera for the above purposes?
2. Is there a standard rate in frames per second at which video is played back for viewing?
3. does this rate need to be modified when converting the images to film, in consideration of film fps rates?
4. I would like to use a camera in which you can set the time-lapse at what ever time increments I wish.

Your advice? Thanks all.


mvmaker
User


Aug 22, 2005, 4:39 PM

Post #2 of 22 (3334 views)
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Re: [richardhiggs] Time-lapse video gear [In reply to] Can't Post

Considering your needs I would go with the Panasonic DVX100A. IT has a still shot with interval timing for time lapse to stop motion.

Ok now for the more technical questions.

The panasonic DVX100A records in TWO types of 24fpm modes. Standard and advanced. Standard works well for cinema and film look on video and broadcast quality pictures while still editing at 29.9fps. Covers the basically all production needs for 24fps. Advanced is really more for direct out to film only. There is also the 30p mode for that filmy look with out the 24fps hassles. Only good for outsourcing to video/dvd semi filmic/nice film look for webvideo and still edits as usual.

All you need for your output to film is a good audio sync program like http://www.dvfilm.com/maker/ get all your parameters set (learning curve) your final edit will be ready to go straight from your source to film with little or no hassle. I say little or no hassle as there is always the chance of something coming up but the telecine process should smooth out any left over problems. Still far less on the budget then filmstock.

Right now Avid as usual is the leader in the best 24fps editor. Avid Xpress pro runs about $1700 give or take a couple hundred depending on where you get it. Others will tell you that Final Cut Pro is just as good if not better since it has been used to cut films just like avid has so it has a good history with 24fps. The whole Final cut studio with added audio software DVD software and others runs about $1,299.

Also these two programs are and have addressed many of the audio/sync problem so no futher software may be needed.

Hope that helped some.

MV




videobear
Veteran


Aug 22, 2005, 5:03 PM

Post #3 of 22 (3328 views)
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Re: [richardhiggs] Time-lapse video gear [In reply to] Can't Post

You might not even need a video camera. A digital still camera on a timer could do the job.

Assemble the individual images in a video editing program. If this is a one-time project, don't spend a lot of money; take the images to a video editing studio. They'll be able to assemble the project as a 29.97 frame per second video clip, a 24 frame per second progressive clip for transfer to film, or both.




Regards,
Doug Graham
Panda Productions


mvmaker
User


Aug 22, 2005, 7:17 PM

Post #4 of 22 (3320 views)
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Re: [videobear] Time-lapse video gear [In reply to] Can't Post

Very true doug would save on money but in all assembled digital stills I've seen spanning time seem to have a "clip" to them. Maybe it's me but for true time lapse moving media has always seemed to be the smoother looking. That's not to say that the "clipped" look couldn't be fixed somewhat or even used for effect as it has been done in music videos.


(This post was edited by mvmaker on Aug 22, 2005, 7:18 PM)


richardhiggs
Novice

Aug 22, 2005, 9:33 PM

Post #5 of 22 (3309 views)
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Re: [mvmaker] Time-lapse video gear [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks to both of you. I appreciate your insights. I hadn't even considered the possibility of assembling stills. The potential for cost-saving is of course appealing . It would be quite a few of them, though. I plan to end up with at the very least a 30-minute finished movie. At 24fps that's 86,400 frames if I did the math right. By the way, for part of the time, I plan to have the camera mounted on a moving vehicle, facing forward. Any thoughts on how that would affect assembled stills as opposed to "moving media"?

Thanks again,
..r.


mvmaker
User


Aug 23, 2005, 10:08 AM

Post #6 of 22 (3292 views)
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Re: [richardhiggs] Time-lapse video gear [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't think there is going to be any more of a diference using digital stills or a digital camcorder on a moving vechicle. Video might smear in some of the wrong places. Try Doug's idea of using stills first and see if it works for your needs. It's far cheaper and provides you with some latitude.


videobear
Veteran


Aug 23, 2005, 10:34 AM

Post #7 of 22 (3290 views)
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Re: [richardhiggs] Time-lapse video gear [In reply to] Can't Post

Eeek! a half hour of time lapse!? That's a challenging number of frames whether you're doing it with stills or with video. Challenging both to assemble, and (I should think) to watch.

The thing about most camcorder's interval recording function is that they will take a very short burst of frames (3 to 5) at each set interval. You may or may not like the look of this. See if you can borrow or rent a camcorder of the model you're looking at, and give it a test run.




Regards,
Doug Graham
Panda Productions


mvmaker
User


Aug 23, 2005, 11:30 AM

Post #8 of 22 (3289 views)
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Re: [videobear] Time-lapse video gear [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Eeek! a half hour of time lapse!? That's a challenging number of frames whether you're doing it with stills or with video. Challenging both to assemble, and (I should think) to watch.


My god! Shows you how much I was paying attention. 30mins of time lapse..........it would be worth watching just to see how much of it the mind could handle. I actually say that with no sarcasm. Like in the old days....no movie over 15 minutes would ever work and so on. Experimental if nothing else.


richardhiggs
Novice

Aug 23, 2005, 1:53 PM

Post #9 of 22 (3275 views)
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Re: [mvmaker] Time-lapse video gear [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks again to you both. MV, yes this is experimental. I plan to create a visual document in time-lapse, and allow the visual experience be a direct, unedited result of that idea. The visual element will be accompanied by a densely-layered soundtrack of music, voices and ambient noise. It may indeed prove unwatchable. I have no idea, but I'm DYING to find out! Finding out what it will look like is the point for me, really. My first approximations indicate I will need a time lapse segment of 6 seconds. One exposure every 6 seconds until I have enough frames for approximately 30 minutes of end product.

I am naive about the technical, practical obstacles I may encounter in completing this, so all your input is welcome.

Videobear, you say this is a challenging number of frames to assemble. I'd like it if you could be more specific about the challenges (in layman's terms if possible). My naive assumption is that if I just turn on the videocam for 30 minutes at 24fps I will have assembled a like number of frames (43,200) in the camera's memory. Will it be different if I instead assemble them in the camera at 6spf, over a period of days?

Also, in regards to the camera taking 3-5 rapid exposures at the time-lapse.... is this necessary? Can that be overridden to take only ONE?

Finally, I appreciate your suggestion for using a still camera, but there may be logisitical obstacles. Is it possible to program a still digital camera to take an exposure every 6 seconds for up to 15 hours at a time, untended?

I look forward to your replies.
..r.


videobear
Veteran


Aug 23, 2005, 3:26 PM

Post #10 of 22 (3267 views)
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Quote
be more specific about the challenges (in layman's terms if possible). My naive assumption is that if I just turn on the videocam for 30 minutes at 24fps I will have assembled a like number of frames (43,200) in the camera's memory. Will it be different if I instead assemble them in the camera at 6spf, over a period of days?

Also, in regards to the camera taking 3-5 rapid exposures at the time-lapse.... is this necessary? Can that be overridden to take only ONE?


Well, if you can find a camera that will take just one frame at a time, then no, there wouldn't be any difference (except the need to provide a constant source of power to the camera, and to not touch it.) But I'm not aware of any prosumer camera that will, in fact, take just one frame in interval recording mode. You might check with some of the suppliers of scientific instrumentation; they may have a better handle on this than I do.

The fact that the cams I'm familiar with take 3-5 frames at a time in interval mode is one of the reasons I suggested trying a still camera instead. Of course, then you have the logistical nightmare (as I implied) of managing thousands of still images, downloading them, and making sure they're assembled in the right order by your editing program.


Quote
Finally, I appreciate your suggestion for using a still camera, but there may be logisitical obstacles. Is it possible to program a still digital camera to take an exposure every 6 seconds for up to 15 hours at a time, untended?


Don't know. You'd have to provide it with AC power, and I have no idea how you'd store that many images. I think what I would do is simply have the camera (or camcorder) turned on, powered by AC, and hooked to a computer. Write a program for the computer to capture an image every six seconds.




Regards,
Doug Graham
Panda Productions


mvmaker
User


Aug 23, 2005, 4:49 PM

Post #11 of 22 (3258 views)
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Re: [richardhiggs] Time-lapse video gear [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Thanks again to you both. MV, yes this is experimental. I plan to create a visual document in time-lapse, and allow the visual experience be a direct, unedited result of that idea. The visual element will be accompanied by a densely-layered soundtrack of music, voices and ambient noise. It may indeed prove unwatchable. I have no idea, but I'm DYING to find out! Finding out what it will look like is the point for me, really. My first approximations indicate I will need a time lapse segment of 6 seconds. One exposure every 6 seconds until I have enough frames for approximately 30 minutes of end product.

Hey I love exprimental can't wait to see the finished project. It is an ambitious one to say the least. The bear may have hinted at logistical problems you may have so do a lot of research on not just this aspect but power supply and so forth. Good luck my man. MV


richardhiggs
Novice

Aug 24, 2005, 11:28 PM

Post #12 of 22 (3237 views)
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Re: [videobear] Time-lapse video gear [In reply to] Can't Post

Videobear,
I've been intrigued by the fact that videocams on time-lapse fire off a burst of 3-5 rapid frames instead of a single frame. Why do you suppose this is evidently a standard? Is it to smooth out the look when a time-lapse sequence is later viewed? I can easily imagine that.

In terms of my project, I don't necessarily see this as an insurmountable problem. It's the nature of the beast, so my job will be to work with that nature, and adapt my methods to it. I just have to figure out how, and do some trial runs on a smaller scale, of course.

One thought just occurred to me: are there any extant post-production programs that will allow me to easily cut, say, every 3rd frame, or every 5th frame? In my project this wouldn't alter the content, it would just to remove redundancy and shorten the final length. Hmm.

This forum has already taught me some valuable things, and will no doubt continue to do so.
..r.


mvmaker
User


Aug 25, 2005, 5:02 AM

Post #13 of 22 (3234 views)
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Re: [richardhiggs] Time-lapse video gear [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Videobear,
I've been intrigued by the fact that videocams on time-lapse fire off a burst of 3-5 rapid frames instead of a single frame. Why do you suppose this is evidently a standard? Is it to smooth out the look when a time-lapse sequence is later viewed? I can easily imagine that.

In terms of my project, I don't necessarily see this as an insurmountable problem. It's the nature of the beast, so my job will be to work with that nature, and adapt my methods to it. I just have to figure out how, and do some trial runs on a smaller scale, of course.

One thought just occurred to me: are there any extant post-production programs that will allow me to easily cut, say, every 3rd frame, or every 5th frame? In my project this wouldn't alter the content, it would just to remove redundancy and shorten the final length. Hmm.

This forum has already taught me some valuable things, and will no doubt continue to do so.
..r.


Even in the digital age we still move those 1s and 0s mainly with a tape mechanism and though tape drives are as sophisticated as they could be these days you still have to bring moving parts up to speed so short bursts of 3-5 is basically as fast as you can start and stop the tape.

This is why all cams that record a still onto tape instead of media card take each still either at a specified amount time or you stop recording the still yourself.

All NLE systems edit at frame accuracy so yes you could edit each image clip like that. All this hassle though I would still go with the bear's advice using a digital still camera that way you can know the exact amount of frames you have calculate that into standard fps video to get a total amount of "tape hours". Also given the large amount of data you will be needing using a digital still cam and a media card would allow you to dump raw footage from the card onto a hard drive everyday replace the card either with an extra or dump to laptop and replace on site. No tapes to buy head hours or clogging problems and so on. This way each day you can get a more complete rough edit instead of having to wait for the tape to fill before getting the footage. You can fix lighting problems that could crop up day to day and many other things by using this method. Of course backup your data as much as you can or afford space for.

MV


videobear
Veteran


Aug 25, 2005, 8:58 AM

Post #14 of 22 (3223 views)
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Re: [mvmaker] Time-lapse video gear [In reply to] Can't Post

The more I think about it, the better I like the idea of using a computer to capture the images. You don't have to worry about having enough storage, as you would with a digital still camera. You don't need to worry about whether the camcorder is able to record a single frame to tape. You can use any electronic imager you have handy (camcorder or still camera) as your image source.

What you'd have to do is write an Action for Photoshop, to import an image every X seconds from your camera, save it as a .tga file, and close it in anticipation of the next image.




Regards,
Doug Graham
Panda Productions


mvmaker
User


Aug 25, 2005, 11:01 AM

Post #15 of 22 (3214 views)
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Re: [videobear] Time-lapse video gear [In reply to] Can't Post

The problems I have with capturing straight to a computer via a photo or video program is that if I am not mistaken this is going to be in the field capturing from a moving vehicle. Let’s say you do have a laptop you now have two pieces of equipment to setup and secure and hope doesn't fail in some way instead of one. If you don't have a laptop then you'll have to invest in one if you have the budget.

I gather this to be a very mobile venture so to me the less moving parts and circuit boards I have to worry about the better.

Still camera is more rugged and will have the capacity to take at the least a 24 hour time span maybe more maybe lots more depends on the storage size of your card and how long between shots you have it set. Buy at least two large capacity media cards....................on a daily basis go switch out cards no laptop needed.


videobear
Veteran


Aug 25, 2005, 11:14 AM

Post #16 of 22 (3213 views)
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Re: [mvmaker] Time-lapse video gear [In reply to] Can't Post

That's a point, mv...I do recall he said "moving vehicle".
I wonder how time lapse would work from a vehicle? The landscape would be completely different for each frame...




Regards,
Doug Graham
Panda Productions


mvmaker
User


Aug 25, 2005, 11:39 AM

Post #17 of 22 (3210 views)
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Re: [videobear] Time-lapse video gear [In reply to] Can't Post

I was wondering the same thing myself about a moving timelapse. I'm thinking I've seen timelapse from a moving crane. Crane as in actual cargo crane and the timelapse was of the dock and the shipping channels and how the crane was almost in use 24/7. There were two cameras one for the cabin and one mounted out on the crane's arm which both moved and you saw the time lapse perspective of the crane and operator. Could be wrong though.


richardhiggs
Novice

Aug 25, 2005, 8:14 PM

Post #18 of 22 (3195 views)
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Re: [mvmaker] Time-lapse video gear [In reply to] Can't Post

This conversation is taking me in unexpected places.
Consider the following requirements:
I would need to capture 600 frames/hour for up to 13 hours per day, totaling 7,800 frames/day.
Are there still cameras/media cards with that kind of capacity which I can set up to run automatically. I could swap cards at mid-day if needed, but swapping out more frequently could create issues.

Any suggestions for a camera up to the task?

Bear's idea for using a computer to control the automation would also solve any potential capacity issues. Either way, it sounds like you're both leaning toward still camera as opposed to video camera to capture the images. Once I get the images into a computer, does the .tga format mean they will be recognized and treated as movie stills? I know that is simplistic, but I really don't know.

Thanks again for taking an interest.
R.


mvmaker
User


Aug 26, 2005, 12:53 AM

Post #19 of 22 (3188 views)
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Yikes! My math was waaaaaay off on this one. Even a 2gig media card shooting at 2megapixels can only capture around 2300 pics.

In a perfect world there would be a still camera that connected nicely with a large capacity firestore solution and firestore wrote not just in native NLE formats but still photo formats as well but since that is not the case if you can afford and and feel good about it's technical setup go with the bear's idea of direct to disc/computer controlled.

Yes. Targa (tga) files will sit on a timeline like any other still file.


MV


Renny
User


Oct 23, 2005, 1:23 PM

Post #20 of 22 (2889 views)
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Re: [richardhiggs] Time-lapse video gear [In reply to] Can't Post

Richard:
Just wondering if you ever got any further on this project? I am planning a similar project myself. Essentially I want to drive across the country in 3 minutes. My math shows that I would need a frame every 30 seconds for the 50 hour drive. I have a number of problems that I'm trying to solve.

1) I have a digital camera, but can't think of a very easy way to get it to snap a shot on a regular time interval.
2) I have a laptop with a dead battery so it needs to run off ac power. Buying a new battery wouldn't help much, because I will be driving for 12 hours a day, so the battery would die anyways. I might be willing to buy an AC adapter for my car, but I'm not completely sure how that works.
3) I need to figure out a mount. This might work, but I'm not sure. http://www.hpmarketingcorp.com/ergo.html

I also have a video camera, which I'm leaning more towards using. The main downfall is that I would like to have the HD quality images from the still camera, but... the problems with the still camera seem abundant. Also if I use the video camera in interval recording mode, I could probably get away with just using a few tapes. Very cheap.

Anyways, if you are still around, I'd love to hear your experiences so far.
Renny

Butylphenyl Methylpropional


Pacman
User

Oct 23, 2005, 9:18 PM

Post #21 of 22 (2867 views)
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Re: [Renny] Time-lapse video gear [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
2) I have a laptop with a dead battery so it needs to run off ac power. Buying a new battery wouldn't help much, because I will be driving for 12 hours a day, so the battery would die anyways. I might be willing to buy an AC adapter for my car, but I'm not completely sure how that works.



Renny,

This is the easy part. The AC adapter can plug into your cigarette lighter socket or you can hook it up to your battery directly and it will give power wether the car is running or not. They look like a car stereo amp, but with 2 or 4 edisons (household plugs) on one end. I have one that I think was $95 bucks and has 2 plugs, but they come cheaper with less wattage. You could easily have enough to power your laptop, camera, and one of those little porta fridges to keep your beer cold. Wink
Wink

As for snapping a still every few seconds for hours on end......you got me there. Good luck guys.


Renny
User


Oct 24, 2005, 1:14 PM

Post #22 of 22 (2834 views)
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Re: [Pacman] Time-lapse video gear [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks Pacman. I think I'm back to the still camera idea. I think I'll do an AC adapter to power the camera and laptop. I found a program called DSLR Remote Pro that seems to fit the bill for automating a camera snap at regular intervals. Looks pretty cool. Then I found a piece of merchandise called a Sticky Pod. It's a bizarre apparatus with suction cups, that allows you to mount a camera in unlikely places. I should be able to mount the Sticky Pod and Rebel onto the front dashboard aimed straight out the window like a tank canon. Apparently this Sticky Pod can be placed on the outside of your car and withstand speeds up to 135 mph. Not that I'm going to do the film that way, but it's nice to know that I could. Aren't suction cups underrated?

I've decided it would probably be better to snap a photo every 10 or 5 seconds instead of 30. At 10 second intervals, the movie will be 9 minutes long. That could be a real snooze fest, but I think at 30, the movie will be way to jumpy looking. At nine minutes I could perhaps build on the mesmerizing quality of driving for long stretches. Perhaps the audience's minds will drift but maybe in a good, road-trip-like way.

I will most likely start at the Washington Monument and end at the Golden Gate Bridge. My wife had this great idea. I think I will also take some video footage of these two places, so that the film sort of starts slow and ends slow, but is super fast in between.

I will attempt to drive from sunrise to sunset every day, hopefully creating a seamless transition at night, so that the film loops instead of jumps.

One question perhaps the gathering minds here could help me contemplate is whether to do Auto Exposure or not. The major problem with setting it in Auto, is that the camera will start to slow the shutter speed down to psychadelic, light blurring levels after sunset. One solution I've considered is to shoot in Shutter priority mode, setting the camera to about 1/250 second, then let the camera choose the aperture. At night the camera will open the iris all the way and keep shooting at the quick shutter speed even though it will go crazy thinking the scene is too dark.

By the way, you helped me a long time ago try to find a studio to shoot blue screen in. That project never took off. It was a serious headache to think about. This project is much less ambitious, and I don't see any reason I won't follow through.
Renny
Butylphenyl Methylpropional