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Home: Video University Forums: HDV:
Blackmagic update: Significant for HDV folks

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gl
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Feb 11, 2005, 4:45 PM

Post #1 of 33 (3775 views)
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Blackmagic update: Significant for HDV folks	Can't Post

In case you are not familiar with them, Black Magic Design produces video cards for high end input/output - formats like HD-SDI and SDI 10bit, 4:4:4 colorspace video. The key with them is they deliver these cards at rock bottom prices ($595 for the entry level HD card) They have just released an update to all of the HD cards that will allow you to injest 1080i hd video and downconvert it in RT to an SD format. Here is the write up:

"New down conversion on capture from HDTV 1080/23.98p/50i/59.94i video inputs. Capture a HDTV 1080 signal to a standard definition file, in letterbox or anamorphic format, in real time and timecode intact with any DeckLink HD series card. This enables a seamless workflow between offline and online projects for the first time in one pass. Supported SD formats include 8, 10 bit Uncompressed, PhotoJPEG, DV or DV50."

What this means is that you can take your HDV originals and downconvert them to an anamorphic DV50 format and edit in 4:2:2 colorspace but, not take the hit that a full HD codec would give you. It will really help to bridge the gap for folks wanting to shoot in HDV (poor souls <grin>) but, deliver in SD.

So, here are the gotchas:

-Currently mac only but they will soon have the windows drivers
-Will require a $1,300 AJA convertor to take the component output from the HDV cam/deck to go into the HD-SDI ports of the Decklink card.

So, you will be spending $2,000 on this setup but, it will make using HDV so easy into your existing workflow while maintaining a high-quality image. If you are going to say a DV50 codec you could easily get away with a set of SATA drives raided or maybe even w/o raid.

As soon as Panny comes out with their DVCPROHD HD cam in the $6K range(which they have indicated they will do) I will be all over this workflow.

gl

scotthayes
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Feb 11, 2005, 5:11 PM

Post #2 of 33 (3742 views)
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Re: [GL] Blackmagic update: Significant for HDV folks [In reply to]	Can't Post

GL,

do you have any info on the panny camera? lately I have been thinking of making the jump to dvcpro50. I got a weekly entertainment show to do, and really could use higher quality than what dv25 currently offers. been thinking about getting one of these:

http://www.avepro.net/html/video/panasonic_ajspx800.htm
lens, body and deck for about 30K. Crazy

If your gear is paid for, KEEP IT!

Joel
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Feb 11, 2005, 5:22 PM

Post #3 of 33 (3733 views)
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Re: [GL] Blackmagic update: Significant for HDV folks [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi George,

"As soon as Panny comes out with their DVCPROHD HD cam in the $6K range(which they have indicated they will do) I will be all over this workflow."

Where did you get this info? Shoulder mounted? DVX100 size? True DVCPROHD? What tape stock? And (please please please) 720p?

Joel

Joel

"Think of this business as a room with a huge table and a bunch of chairs around the table. There is a big pie on the table. Your mission is to take your place at the table, pick up your fork, and eat your pie. Do not look to the left and do not look to the right. Just eat your pie. There is plenty of pie for everyone."

starting | perfectionists

gl
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Feb 11, 2005, 5:59 PM

Post #4 of 33 (3699 views)
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Re: [scotthayes] Blackmagic update: Significant for HDV folks [In reply to]	Can't Post

There has several reports based on the mockup they showed at IBC. They have only stated that it would be DVPROHD and compete with the Z1 in price. I suspect that 720p would be the way they would go but, no proof of that.

The SPX-800 looks like a great camera. The one concern finacially is is the price of the cards it records on.

gl

gl
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Feb 11, 2005, 6:01 PM

Post #5 of 33 (3696 views)
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Re: [Joel] Blackmagic update: Significant for HDV folks [In reply to]	Can't Post

I am afraid we don't have that much detail. I suspect they will get more specific at NAB. They have only stated that they are working on a camera tha will be a competitor to the Z1 and that it will most likely be DVCPROHD, not HDV <- which is the part I like.

gl

DSE
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Feb 11, 2005, 6:13 PM

Post #6 of 33 (3697 views)
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Re: [GL] Blackmagic update: Significant for HDV folks [In reply to]	Can't Post

GL, that exact workflow is already available to PC users in a few different methods, so I'm not sure what you're getting excited about. We're already using Blackmagic with Vegas, using uncompressed ingest from the Z1, using the Blackmagic 4:2:2 codec. It doesn't look any better/different than the Cineform DI, which is also realtime. Problem with the workflow you suggest is that it takes a lot more than just the card to have an optimal editing system. You're forgetting the RAID requirement, as well as optimal thruput at every step of the way.
If you're gonna go this route, you're better off with Final Cut HD and an AJA box, which is no different than you're proposing here.
Further, you can shoot HD and deliver in SD with HDV now. Of course no one can say what the new Panny's will look like in terms of quality; I'm sure they'll be very good. What they'd originally proposed as being a 15K camera now has to be dropped to sub 10K, so there will be compromises, and you'll see them in a prototype at NAB. Maybe they'll be lots better, maybe not.
Either way, you gain nothing by this particular workflow, and stand to actually lose, especially if you're in the PC world and have Liquid, Vegas, or Premiere.

Douglas Spotted Eagle
Author, producer, composer
www.vasst.com
"I enjoy music, long walks at sunset on the beach, and poking dead things with a sharp stick."

gl
Veteran

Feb 11, 2005, 6:39 PM

Post #7 of 33 (3683 views)
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Re: [DSE] Blackmagic update: Significant for HDV folks [In reply to]	Can't Post

Your missing the point.

Who is going to deliver a wedding in HD right now? no one. Who is going to deliver a wedding in HD in 6 months? VERY few. In a year? Maybe half. This update allows you to down convert in RT to a high quality SD codec. You are NOT doing this in vegas and Decklink rightn ow.

gl

DSE
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Feb 11, 2005, 6:55 PM

Post #8 of 33 (3666 views)
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Re: [GL] Blackmagic update: Significant for HDV folks [In reply to]	Can't Post

I'm not? You sure? You're telling me that a 4:2:2 10 bit BlackMagic codec isn't a good codec? Or 4:2:2 (same codec used to do the 35MM film out to "Dust to Glory" isn't a good codec?
I thought the subject WAS SD, not HD. Which is what I'm talking about. Excepting the comment about "Dust to Glory" which stayed in HD.

Douglas Spotted Eagle
Author, producer, composer
www.vasst.com
"I enjoy music, long walks at sunset on the beach, and poking dead things with a sharp stick."

gl
Veteran

Feb 11, 2005, 7:13 PM

Post #9 of 33 (3660 views)
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Re: [DSE] Blackmagic update: Significant for HDV folks [In reply to]	Can't Post

Sure BMDs 10 bit 4:2:2 codec is great. The point of this is not to go up to the biggest codec I can but to the best for optimization of workflow and quality. A DV50 would get a wedding guy into that point without killing themselves in processing.

gl

gl
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Feb 11, 2005, 7:14 PM

Post #10 of 33 (3660 views)
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Re: [DSE] Blackmagic update: Significant for HDV folks [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

What I am proposing works with standard codecs now. It does not require an intermediary codec - you injest into the codec you will edit, corect and deliver in. The same is not true of cineform for anything other than film out.

In Reply To

You're forgetting the RAID requirement, as well as optimal thruput at every step of the way.

No, I am not. SATA drive provide plenty oof throughput for DV50. If you raid them then you can bring in HD without a problem.

In Reply To

If you're gonna go this route, you're better off with Final Cut HD and an AJA box, which is no different than you're proposing here.

I can't agree. The setup I am proposing allows you SD or HD output. I assume you are reffering to the AJA io which is SD only. If you are reffering to the Kona2 then it is not performaing as well as the Decklink for this application.

In Reply To

Further, you can shoot HD and deliver in SD with HDV now.

How? Output DV25 from the Z1? If you convert to a DV50 4:2:2 colorspace you can do all of your CC and editing without losing any more bandwidth.

In Reply To

Of course no one can say what the new Panny's will look like in terms of quality; I'm sure they'll be very good. What they'd originally proposed as being a 15K camera now has to be dropped to sub 10K, so there will be compromises, and you'll see them in a prototype at NAB. Maybe they'll be lots better, maybe not.
Either way, you gain nothing by this particular workflow, and stand to actually lose, especially if you're in the PC world and have Liquid, Vegas, or Premiere.

How do I lose? I have access to any quality codec I want. Cineform isn't going to help me accomplish that. Vegas can't do it this elegantly.

gl

DSE
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Feb 11, 2005, 7:17 PM

Post #11 of 33 (3656 views)
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Re: [GL] Blackmagic update: Significant for HDV folks [In reply to]	Can't Post

But you just got through saying I can't do what I'm doing. I'm confused, GL. What you're suggesting is great, but it's not new, not by any stretch. It's just a new thing for BlackMagic.
I'm not clear on if you're trying to put HDV down and tout Panny, or talk about how great the new BlackMagic solution is, but in any event, BlackMagic tools have been part of my HDV workflow since November 12 of last year when Sony showed the Z1 to the world. I've been working with BlackMagic in Vegas in some form since more than a year ago. I guess I'm dense about what I'm not able to do according to your post.

[edit] we were posting at the same time, so I'd not seen yours. There are MANY options for getting to MANY codecs via Vegas or other tools. Perhaps you're not familiar with the Y Pb Pr out of the HDV cameras that can be SD or HD? As in Uncompressed from the cam? Either live or from tape without the additional encode? And that there are HD/SDI and HD/SD/SDI options available? Coupled with the Black Magic card and solution, it's all already there. In terms of codecs, Vegas is one of the most open to decode/encode. But the Sony YUV 4:2:2 codec is one of the best available. I've used it for HDCam print several times. It's also great for print to Beta SX. So just what is it again that you're gaining? [/edit]

Douglas Spotted Eagle
Author, producer, composer
www.vasst.com
"I enjoy music, long walks at sunset on the beach, and poking dead things with a sharp stick."

(This post was edited by DSE on Feb 11, 2005, 7:29 PM)

gl
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Feb 11, 2005, 7:42 PM

Post #12 of 33 (3640 views)
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Re: [DSE] Blackmagic update: Significant for HDV folks [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

So how are you able to duplicate this workflow meaning: HDV -> DV50 with TC and batch capture/re-capture ability? Can Vegas do this? It not even clear that the Edious NX system can do this. I am not aware of ANYTHING on the PC that will do this *in RT* (no rendering from one codec to another) in the price range I am talking about.

As far as HDV goes, I am not down on the format in total. I just think it has inherit weaknesses. Namely, high motion/action and that includes a medium->fast pan or zoom or a scene where there is a lot of small shapes together. This is just because there is not enough bandwidth for the encoder to deal with it. This doesn't make the format bad or unuseable. I would only use the Z1 in semi-controlled lighting and a many corporate scenarios (talking heads, locked off establishing or slow pans). I honeslty don't think it's versatile enough for weddings or other non-ideal situations. This is my opinion based on what I have seen personally and been told by many many people. It's truly a technological feat that they can even get a decent HD image into that small a stream. I just don't like what I have to compromise in order to get it. That's my opinion and I try not to represent it otherwise. This format is too new to make bold statements of fact just yet.

I hope I don't come across as argumentive. I am just trying to inform.

gl

scotthayes
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Feb 11, 2005, 8:07 PM

Post #13 of 33 (3622 views)
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Re: [GL] Blackmagic update: Significant for HDV folks [In reply to]	Can't Post

wow, I should have looked closer on the specs for that camera concerning
the SD card. that could be an expensive problem. damn. Perhaps a used
DSR570 would be a better option?

If your gear is paid for, KEEP IT!

gl
Veteran

Feb 11, 2005, 8:51 PM

Post #14 of 33 (3598 views)
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Re: [scotthayes] Blackmagic update: Significant for HDV folks [In reply to]	Can't Post

What is the scenario? Soundstage? Auditorium? On location?

There are lots of options.

gl

KevinShaw
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Feb 11, 2005, 8:57 PM

Post #15 of 33 (3593 views)
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Re: [GL] Blackmagic update: Significant for HDV folks [In reply to]	Can't Post

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All this talk about using Blackmagic or Kona or whatever to edit HDV seems odd when there are some very capable HDV-oriented editing solutions out there with high-quality, moderate bandwidth codecs. The two best choices appear to be Canopus Edius (3.0/NX/SP) and Adobe Premiere Pro with the Cineform Aspect HD plugin, plus now it seems that iMovie and FCP Express have a workable approach. All other solutions are basically dancing around the issues which these products have already solved.

gl
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Feb 11, 2005, 9:29 PM

Post #16 of 33 (3585 views)
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Re: [kwshaw1] Blackmagic update: Significant for HDV folks [In reply to]	Can't Post

I actually think the Edius NX solution is interesting. It does have a few things to consider however:

-You have to use Edius :) Perhaps a draw or drawback depending on who you talk to.
-Cost. This is just as expensive or more than anything I have talked about.
-Codec: It will edit in either an mpeg2 format (not what I would want) or it's own proprietary intermediate codec.
-No batch capture. This also means limited media management.

So, this would work well for someone who likes Edius, is willing to pay the bucks for it (still cheap compared to previous days of systems) and doesn't care about the workflow issues with media management. I don't know enough about the codec to know how well is stands up to CC, and a multi-tool workflow.

The PPro/Cineform is this same kludgy setup I am trying to stay away from. I want to manage the capture and editing all in the same enviorment. This allows a lot greater project management. The PPro/Aspect HD will not allow you to monitor your HD which is unfortunate but no way around it without some H/W interface. The Cineform codec is indeed a great codec (Trust me, I am all over "Dust to Glory" - I have motorsyle oil in my blood) but it's not integrated enough with a means of H/W interface UNLESS you go with the Prospect HD solution but that requires you buy the whole package from BOXX (Which includes a Bluefush card). A BMD/ PPro solution would be much inexpensive. My hope is that Cineform work with other vendors to get the codec into more H/W. BTW I am not biased in favor of BMD. There is just no one else that is delivering the technology they do at this price point. Bluefish? Too much baggage from Digital Voodoo who had some real support issues.

I am not saying you *can't* work with any of these solutions or even with the iMovie thing. I am saying that they have issues that turns me away. The point of my original post was to discuss the possibility of moving the HDV signal into a odec that you could more easily deliver SD at high quality and lower cost. The NX system is probably the best situation on the PC currently. I am sure it will change even as early as NAB. I expect to see a BMD/PPro solution and perhaps even a BMD/Vegas solution (According to BMD reps, It hinges on the next version of Vegas).

gl

(This post was edited by GL on Feb 11, 2005, 9:48 PM)

scotthayes
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Feb 11, 2005, 10:23 PM

Post #17 of 33 (3579 views)
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Re: [GL] Blackmagic update: Significant for HDV folks [In reply to]	Can't Post

GL,

I am doing a 30 minute local/state e style show. featuring
clubs, charity events, fashion kinds of things. the post house they were
using was shooting with a DSR500/570 in 16:9. I just don't think
my DV500 with standard lens is going to cut it. there is huge potential
with this, and I want to do it right.

If your gear is paid for, KEEP IT!

gl
Veteran

Feb 11, 2005, 10:32 PM

Post #18 of 33 (3575 views)
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Re: [scotthayes] Blackmagic update: Significant for HDV folks [In reply to]	Can't Post

You may want to shop around for a 500ws then. THat way you can stay in the DVCAM world. However, that means you have to stay in the DVCAM world :P

If you are not opposed to used, I have seen some DVCPRO50 16:9 cameras going for close to $12K

gl

scotthayes
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Feb 11, 2005, 10:43 PM

Post #19 of 33 (3575 views)
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Re: [GL] Blackmagic update: Significant for HDV folks [In reply to]	Can't Post

I have no problem with a used dvcpro50, but I would need a new deck.
What if I upgraded the lens on my 500? it would be the cheapest solution.
I can fake the 16:9.

If your gear is paid for, KEEP IT!

Mathew
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Feb 12, 2005, 9:54 AM

Post #20 of 33 (3458 views)
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Re: [DSE] Blackmagic update: Significant for HDV folks [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

I'm not clear on if you're trying to put HDV down and tout Panny, or talk about how great the new BlackMagic solution[/edit]

What he's trying to say is that your beloved Sony HDV camera is a hunk of junk. Laugh

gl
Veteran

Feb 12, 2005, 11:13 AM

Post #21 of 33 (3435 views)
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Re: [Mathew] Blackmagic update: Significant for HDV folks [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

I'm not clear on if you're trying to put HDV down and tout Panny, or talk about how great the new BlackMagic solution[/edit]

What he's trying to say is that your beloved Sony HDV camera is a hunk of junk. Laugh

Nope. Not at all. It's an amazing unit - especially for the price. I ma just saying it has drawbacks. That's all.

The great irony in this is my whole post point was for an HDV workflow, not DVCPROHD <- That will be much easier to deal with Wink

gl
Veteran

Feb 12, 2005, 11:19 AM

Post #22 of 33 (3428 views)
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In Reply To

I have no problem with a used dvcpro50, but I would need a new deck.
What if I upgraded the lens on my 500? it would be the cheapest solution.
I can fake the 16:9.

Well, I would opt for the DSR-500ws as you will get true 16x9 chips and a lot of image control. Then all you need is a DSR-1500 if you don't already have one.

Here is a unit with lens for $10K. It's in Idaho - my upstairs neighbor :)

gl

KevinShaw
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Feb 12, 2005, 11:37 AM

Post #23 of 33 (3424 views)
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Re: [GL] Blackmagic update: Significant for HDV folks [In reply to]	Can't Post

"The PPro/Aspect HD will not allow you to monitor your HD which is unfortunate but no way around it without some H/W interface. "

According to Cineform staff, you should soon be able to monitor HD from PPpro/Aspect HD using new video cards with HDTV output. This would arguably put Premiere Pro ahead of the Edius NX/SP setups in some regards, and should also be applicable to other HDV editing solutions.

"I am not saying you *can't* work with any of these solutions or even with the iMovie thing. I am saying that they have issues that turns me away. The point of my original post was to discuss the possibility of moving the HDV signal into a codec that you could more easily deliver SD at high quality and lower cost. "

You make some interesting points, but why spend all that money for an SD solution when you can capture, edit, output and deliver high-definition video today using currently available and affordable products? You mentioned using the DV50 codec, but both Canopus HQ and the Cineform codec use similar or higher bit rates to maintain quality during editing. The only problem I see which hasn't been adequately addressed is time code/batch capture capability, and that's something you can easily work around if you want to edit HDV footage at HD resolution. Plus if you edit in HD you can generate both SD and HD output from the timeline at the end of your project, without having to fuss with offline/online workflow issues. That's what I intend to do as soon as I resolve which software I'm going to use to edit HDV, which for now will probably be Edius because that's what I've been using for DV work.

(This post was edited by kwshaw1 on Feb 12, 2005, 11:40 AM)

gl
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Feb 12, 2005, 11:51 AM

Post #24 of 33 (3410 views)
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In Reply To

You make some interesting points, but why spend all that money for an SD solution when you can capture, edit, output and deliver high-definition video today using currently available and affordable products? You mentioned using the DV50 codec, but both Canopus HQ and the Cineform codec use similar or higher bit rates to maintain quality during editing. The only problem I see which hasn't been adequately addressed is time code/batch capture capability, and that's something you can easily work around if you want to edit HDV footage at HD resolution. Plus if you edit in HD you can generate both SD and HD output from the timeline at the end of your project, without having to fuss with offline/online workflow issues. That's what I intend to do as soon as I resolve which software I'm going to use to edit HDV, which for now will probably be Edius because that's what I've been using for DV work.

Why? Because I can still deliver HD as well as SD. I can also deliver it in any hd format required without any time-hit for conversion. I should state that this workflow is one for speed and a full production schedule that doesn't want to wait around. If you have limited resources, more time than I do to deliver your products or you will never want to edit in a lower compression format then what I am suggesting is not for you. I am guessing that it won't fit a lot of budgets out there (although I still find it ironic when you consider what you spend on just one camera).

BTW I am not familiar with any solution that does reliable batch capture/offline re-capture in HDV yet. Edius certainly doesn't. Cineform/PPro won't. The reason is they all rely on a seperate app to do the capture and the integration with the editing environment is not tight enough. If you just convert the HDV signal into one that is native to the app then you maintain that relationship. That is of value to me and worth spending the extra $2k on <-which is pocket change in corporate budgets.

gl

KevinShaw
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Feb 12, 2005, 12:36 PM

Post #25 of 33 (3401 views)
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Re: [GL] Blackmagic update: Significant for HDV folks [In reply to]	Can't Post

"Why? Because I can still deliver HD as well as SD. I can also deliver it in any hd format required without any time-hit for conversion. I should state that this workflow is one for speed and a full production schedule that doesn't want to wait around."

But if you want to output HD using Blackmagic or other similar solution, don't you either have to use an offline/online workflow or edit using uncompressed HD? Now you're talking huge, expensive hard drive arrays for any useful amount of editing, where the cost of the drives alone may be more than the cost of another HDV camera. And since the most useful output format for consumer-oriented projects is something like Windows Media HD, you're still going to have to deal with long render times at the end of your project--just like you would with other approaches to editing HDV.

As far as batch capture is concerned, I've never bothered with that for event videography and have no desire to start doing so now. Even with partially uncompressed HDV editing codecs, I can still capture all of my raw footage from a typical event to a single hard drive or simple two-drive RAID, then get started editing from there. If you really want batch capture capability then HDV is a bit of a pain at the moment, but that's not really an obstacle to effective editing. My customers don't know or care whether I use batch capture or bulk capture, they just want to see the finished video.

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