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Home: Video University Forums: HDV:
Downconvert on capture or in NLE?

 
 


GmElliott
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May 7, 2007, 11:11 AM

Post #1 of 11 (3731 views)
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Downconvert on capture or in NLE? Can't Post
Curious which is a better workflow. I've tried both but don't see much of a difference. Obviously downconverting during capture would be helpful because it would award me with the ability to work with SD content in the NLE which would in-turn increase performance and speed up rendering times.

However I was curious if others have really seen a discernable difference between in-cam downconersion or downconversion during render?




Glen Elliott
http://www.GmElliottVideo.com
Glen Elliott on Vimeo


JC/DV
Veteran


May 7, 2007, 12:17 PM

Post #2 of 11 (3721 views)
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Re: [GmElliott] Downconvert on capture or in NLE? [In reply to] Can't Post
When downconverting in cam on my HC1's I saw a flickering top line--especially if I applied slowmo to it. So I just applied a very small vertical crop and cured that problem. I haven't tried downconverting on the A1 yet because I'm used to the HDV workflow now.

I reccomend shooting and capturing in HDV and edit for SD if that is how you are delivering, because you can reframe the HDV footage and even zoom in on it for SD delivery. And yes, I can tell a slight difference (I notice it, but majority of others don't) between in cam and NLE downconverting.

My 2 cents.

Jerome
JC/DV Productions - Website | Blog | Twitter | Facebook

Technology. It does wonders if you know how to use it.


GmElliott
Veteran


May 8, 2007, 8:10 AM

Post #3 of 11 (3692 views)
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Re: [JC/DV] Downconvert on capture or in NLE? [In reply to] Can't Post
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When downconverting in cam on my HC1's I saw a flickering top line--especially if I applied slowmo to it. So I just applied a very small vertical crop and cured that problem. I haven't tried downconverting on the A1 yet because I'm used to the HDV workflow now.

I reccomend shooting and capturing in HDV and edit for SD if that is how you are delivering, because you can reframe the HDV footage and even zoom in on it for SD delivery. And yes, I can tell a slight difference (I notice it, but majority of others don't) between in cam and NLE downconverting.

My 2 cents.

Hey Jerome, I haven't seen any flickering lines or any other abnormalities like that. So what are you suggesting...
1) I capture in HDV
2) Edit HDV in SD timeline?
3) Render out to SD

I ask because it sounds like editing HDV in an anamorphic SD timeline would be a recipe for bad performance, though I've never tried it.

Right now I either:
a) Capture HDV, Edit in HDV, render out to anamorphic SD
or (more comonly)
b) Capture anamorphic SD (downconverted in cam), Edit in anamorphic SD, render out in anamorphic SD




Glen Elliott
http://www.GmElliottVideo.com
Glen Elliott on Vimeo


(This post was edited by GmElliott on May 8, 2007, 8:11 AM)


StillMotion
Enthusiast

May 8, 2007, 10:45 AM

Post #4 of 11 (3685 views)
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Re: [GmElliott] Downconvert on capture or in NLE? [In reply to] Can't Post
Glen,

I've spent lots of time trying different workflows for best quality in the end, ease of getting HD later, and speed of editing/rendering. Best option I have come across is upconverting on import, or selecting the HDV AIC easy setup in FCP. Once you get it into Final Cut it edits much like DV footage and the storage size is not too bad at all.

Patrick


GmElliott
Veteran


May 8, 2007, 11:41 AM

Post #5 of 11 (3682 views)
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Re: [StillMotion] Downconvert on capture or in NLE? [In reply to] Can't Post
Hey Patrick is that the Apple Intermediary Codec? What does that do exactly- convert it to a non MPG2 derivitive to avoid the sloppy nature of having i-frames, etc while editing?

How much more space does this take up. I know DV is aprox 13.x gigs an hour. HDV is slightly smaller.




Glen Elliott
http://www.GmElliottVideo.com
Glen Elliott on Vimeo


StillMotion
Enthusiast

May 8, 2007, 11:52 AM

Post #6 of 11 (3679 views)
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Re: [GmElliott] Downconvert on capture or in NLE? [In reply to] Can't Post
Hi Glen,

I'm not sure if I sent you that bridal shoot or not? It was shot with two A1s, probably 15 minutes shot with the brevis and about 30 with the steadicam and it takes up about 23 gigs, which sounds a bit high from what I was expecting but there is als alot of motion and detail. Another love story intrview shoot with a black backdrop only took up 17 gigs for about an hour.

Whe I tried cutting HDV, it was much too slow, but with AIC it really works well. I believe AIC just encodes each frame, which is why it works faster and is larger.

Patrick


GmElliott
Veteran


May 8, 2007, 12:22 PM

Post #7 of 11 (3681 views)
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Re: [StillMotion] Downconvert on capture or in NLE? [In reply to] Can't Post
AIC= Apple Intermediary Codec correct? The only HD content I've ever captured is standard HDV right out of the cam using a 1080i HDV easy setup. I haven't noticed any performance issue at all, then again I haven't done any rendering. Where are you seeing the performance hit- during editing, rendering, or both? Lastly what kind of Mac are you running?




Glen Elliott
http://www.GmElliottVideo.com
Glen Elliott on Vimeo


StillMotion
Enthusiast

May 8, 2007, 12:28 PM

Post #8 of 11 (3674 views)
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Re: [GmElliott] Downconvert on capture or in NLE? [In reply to] Can't Post
Yep, thats what AIC is.

To get AIC, just change the Easy Setup to HD AIC 1080 60i, or whatever frame rate your using. When you go to log and capture it then starts capturing and converting right away in real time. Less control over the import but for me, I import it all, so it is no big deal.

I'm running a Quad mac pro 2.6 I believe with a mid range video card and 3 gigs of ram. I noticed an HDV slowdown when doing some slow motion, color correction, and stacking filters. Some of it was an acceptable slow-down, but I find it performs much better with AIC. I jumped ship on HDv pretty quick so Im not sure if the rendering times are shorter but they do seem pretty quick to do an downconvert on export (it took 14 min for a 3:30 bridal shoot with lots of flipped footage and lots of filters).

Patrick


Derek
Enthusiast


May 24, 2007, 8:47 AM

Post #9 of 11 (3566 views)
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Re: [GmElliott] Downconvert on capture or in NLE? [In reply to] Can't Post
So Glen what did you end up doing? Are you using AIC? Is AIC available in FCP 5? I have a HD shot this weekend, thus my numerous questions.

I had planned on editing it in HD so it can be mastered back to tape in HD and downconverted to a SD DVD.
Derek ~


mcguyver
User


Jun 6, 2007, 9:48 PM

Post #10 of 11 (3436 views)
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Re: [StillMotion] Downconvert on capture or in NLE? [In reply to] Can't Post
Glen, how are you outputting your SD DVDs? I've been trying to do it where it's letterboxed on a 4:3 display and widescreen on a widescreen display. I've been capturing and editing in HDV, then dropping it into a DV50 timeline, exporting a qt movie, then using compressor to make the DVDSP-ready files

Where I've been running into problems is areas of slow motion - I think it's a field issue - heavy stuttering on slow motion sequences. I've tried also changing the compressor output to upper field, which seems to take care of the stutter, but for scenes of regular motion, it looks like I'm having a field issue there as well.

Maybe for your next training DVD, you can do a complete step-by-step HDV-SD workflow. ;-)

Todd

____________________________________________________
Trapped on an island in the middle of the Pacific without a Swiss Army Knife
Armed with a Sony HVR-Z1, Glen's Canon EOS 1DMkII and trying to get by with a Powerbook G4 and a Mac mini for the time being.


StillMotion
Enthusiast

Jun 7, 2007, 6:45 AM

Post #11 of 11 (3426 views)
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Re: [mcguyver] Downconvert on capture or in NLE? [In reply to] Can't Post
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Maybe for your next training DVD, you can do a complete step-by-step HDV-SD workflow. ;-)

Todd
I'de check out the FCS2 manual, it is all quie easy now. If you drop HDV into a DV timeline it will automatically apply a shift fields filter and the slow motion looks much better. I can also just export the Hd timeline using compressor and get a windescreen SD file that will be letterboxed when played on a 4:3 display.