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Home: Video University Forums: HDV:
HDV Setup Suggestion

 

 


RDaC
Novice

Nov 15, 2007, 12:14 AM

Post #1 of 10 (1725 views)
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HDV Setup Suggestion Can't Post

Hey guys, someone asked my opinion on doing a corporate HDV setup on a budget of roughly $15k. Here's what I posted, for your benefit. If you see anything I missed, please let me know. Thanks!

___________________________________________
Rex Hollingsworth
Multimedia Specialist & Trainer
Adobe Certified Expert

RDaC - Research, Development and Creativity


RDaC
Novice

Nov 15, 2007, 12:15 AM

Post #2 of 10 (1722 views)
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Re: [RDaC] HDV Setup Suggestion [In reply to] Can't Post

The new Sony HDR-V1U is nice, I played with it last night. It's basically the PD170 in HD form, which is both a good and a bad thing.

The good things are that it has all the pro-level inputs you'll need as far as sound goes and if you're used to the PD170, it'll feel pretty much like home.

That being said, here's the bad things...I've always hated the semi-mid/rearward mounted LCD, and I was very exited when they put it on the top stalk on the FX1. It makes it much easier to shoot with off the shoulder if you've got one of those shoulder mounts like I used to have. It definitely sucks having the screen in your face, and the V1U will have the same issue, it seems. Might be a little better because it's a bigger screen, but I don't think it'll help that much.

Also, they miniaturized all the A/V outputs, so expect to carry a bunch of conversion dongles around with you.

Overall, I like the FX1 for the value and, if you add an XLR block mixer to the bottom of it, you almost match it feature wise to the Z1U.

Avoid the FX7...it's worse in low light and suffers from several damning issues. It's one of those cases of smaller/newer but not better.

This article may help you as well.

http://hdvinfo.net/...nyhdrfx1/compare.php

I'd use the additional money I saved by buying the FX1s to buy accessories, such as a better tripod (maybe even with a fluid return head, drool...), batts, shoulder mount system, firestore, and maybe even a few extra kicker cameras.

I love the HDR-HC7 as a kicker because it has a mic input, small size, focal controls and decent image quality. You put it with a firestore, though, and it would become a two pound BEAST! Well, at least for a static front cam or that long high balcony shot w/ a lens adapter.

Also, someone in the CreativeCOW forums made a good point...rent and test yourself. Normally, if I go into a business (such as some of the locals, like Videotex and ECI) and say that I'm seriously considering doing a big equipment purchase, let them know my budget, and say I'd like to get a rental to find out if the model is right for me, they should let it go for a day free if it's available in their rental stock.

After all, who's going to say 'no' to a free/discounted rental when a 15k sale is on the line? If it's between one or another and the rental's going to secure the sale, then they're going to be all over it.

Finally, timing your buy is important. Sony just came out with their P2 system contender, the XDCAM EX. Whereas it has amazing features for its around 6k price, I'd be hard pressed to recommend it to all but the most experienced videographer. Whereas its half inch CMOS sensors should make for unbelievable low light performance, the fixed full manual lens is a dealbreaker for most run-n-gun shooters. Plus, it's heavy! Don't get me wrong, it's an amazing camera, but it's just not for most event folks. It would be great for fixed tripod work, though and it'll force the price on other models to go down. Also, it's getting towards December and all of the vendors will be slashing their prices as they close out the year.

___________________________________________
Rex Hollingsworth
Multimedia Specialist & Trainer
Adobe Certified Expert

RDaC - Research, Development and Creativity


RDaC
Novice

Nov 15, 2007, 12:15 AM

Post #3 of 10 (1718 views)
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Re: [RDaC] HDV Setup Suggestion [In reply to] Can't Post

Now, for the Canon fanboys in the house...yes, I love the Canons as well.

Just sub out XH A1 for the FX1, and the HV20 for the HC7.

Honestly, the A1 kicks the crap out of the FX1 (and the Z1U, for the price). I'm a long time Sony user, and it hurts me to say it, but the A1's got it beat, especially since they have the same price point.

As far as low light performance, you can kick up the gain and use the built in noise reduction to really make some decent looking footage in otherwise unsuitable situations for HD. I highly suggest you try it out.

It even comes with control software that lets you monitor, control and capture directly to your PC laptop. You can even control the autofocus response to be fast for quick framing or slow for a more natural transition.

I wish this thing was around when I first started doing corporate work. To paraphrase, it's 'slap-yo-momma' good.

The HV20 is about on par with the Sony HC7. Even though the 'push to slow-mo' button in the new HC7 is neat, the low light performance of the HV20 and its ability to record in 24p makes it more worthwhile in my book (performs even better in low light when you're in 24p mode, strangely). Plus, it's about $150 cheaper than the Sony - what a steal.

___________________________________________
Rex Hollingsworth
Multimedia Specialist & Trainer
Adobe Certified Expert

RDaC - Research, Development and Creativity


RDaC
Novice

Nov 15, 2007, 12:16 AM

Post #4 of 10 (1716 views)
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Re: [RDaC] HDV Setup Suggestion [In reply to] Can't Post

Deck wise, I'd say you'd be better off buying one of the cheap cameras and dumping off of it. The HV20 has a built-in analog to digital converter, so it'll make a great little deck.

This sounds ghetto and may not look the best, but you have to think of it this way:

- My examples above are using firestores, so for the most part it's going to be extremely limited usage (occasional feed-in of tape or capture from analog source)
- At roughly $800 a camera vs. $1500-$2500 for a deck, even if it burns out after a year and a half of use, you're still pretty much ahead. I normally rate video equipment like desktops, on roughly a 3 year depreciation schedule.
- Basically it's a deck with a lens, or a backup camera that happens to be your deck.

With HD tech evolving at its current rate, it won't take long for a big, expensive deck to become out of date. By going with a cheaper camera for transfer, you're helping your company by providing an upgrade path. When the new 1080p cameras come out, at least you won't be tied to that purchase.

If you have to have a deck, I'd go with the BR-HD50U for its features. Get a good warranty on it, though...I've had rough experiences with JVC decks in the past. Previously, their DVCAM playback was worthless and their pro level DVD/VHS decks ate tapes - you have been warned. I believe one of the Temple meeting guys has this deck, I'll try to ask him about it. So far, he seems really happy with it, and if it lives up to the paper specs, it's a must have. I read on B&H that'll slave with your camera and when you reach less than 5 minutes on your tape, it'll start recording on the deck. Nice feature, but not really needed if you're doing tapeless capture. I'm also not sure if that applies to JVC cameras only. I was unable to find anything on JVC's site to confirm this.

If you go with a Sony setup, get the HVR-M15U. It's basically a DSR-11 in HD, and if it's as much like its predecessor, it's going to last a long, long time. I saw lots of negative comments about this deck online, but it seems to all stem from one bad review. The deck seemed to leave this one guy high and dry, and it was a bad enough experience that he posted all over the web about it. A warranty might not be a bad idea on this one, either, but it could have just been Sony going through some early production woes.

Seeing as Mercy Ships goes all over the place, it might be smart to have a deck that can handle PAL vs. the camcorder method, but it's up to you. Even working with people from all over the world, it rarely came up for me. Most European DVD players can handle NTSC and translate to PAL for viewing, so it was pretty much a non-issue.

___________________________________________
Rex Hollingsworth
Multimedia Specialist & Trainer
Adobe Certified Expert

RDaC - Research, Development and Creativity


RDaC
Novice

Nov 15, 2007, 12:16 AM

Post #5 of 10 (1714 views)
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Re: [RDaC] HDV Setup Suggestion [In reply to] Can't Post

Final Picks and Cost:

Canon XH A1 - $3250 x 2 - $6500
Canon HV20 - $800 x 3 - $2400
nNovia QCHD - $1450 x 5 - $7200

Ok, I went a bit over: $16,100. But think about what you get...you don't have to spend as much time capturing footage, you eliminate unnecessary head wear on your cameras, and you save your sanity by not having to worry about swapping tapes on all those cameras.

This represents a five camera setup with five 120gb discs that will last you several hours. You'll have a main camera, a backup main, and three kickers, which should be enough to guarantee coverage even at a large event. There's a nice promotion over at nNovia this month that will get you the drive for free plus a shoulder mount kit which comes with a nice, big battery. Also, since you're buying all Canon, color matching should be a breeze as long as you maintain a consistent setup.

If you can get them to spend a bit more, here's some additional suggestions, in no particular order:

- If you don't have cases, spend $200 on a Pelican with some wheels. I think the 1650 should work for all the cameras and such. It might be a little tight, but should be bearable, and the wheels will save your back.

- You could get a FlowPod. This thing is awesome...it's a stabilizer and a monopod all in one. I'm surprised that there hasn't been a lot of buzz about this device. It's $500 for the 'pod, the case and the low-angle kit.

- Try on a $200 camera crane with $100 Bescor motorized head. Thank you eBay for lowering the price of those things. Grab a standard tripod for a PA speaker, and you're good to go. You can get the casters for said tripod as well. This setup would work well with one of the small cameras. You could add a small LCD monitor to the mix, but I'm currently experimenting with an interesting alternative. More on that later.

- Buy a second (or third!) monitor. If you're just using a single small screen, you'll more than double your productivity. Also, some of the monitors (such as some Dells) can be used as dedicated HD monitor as well. For about $200 each, you should be set.

- A wireless mic set would be nice. I recommend Sennheiser, but other folks have had good luck with other brands too. Get two if you can afford it, and a standard hand mic plug in transmitter as well. This should cover you in most any situation. Also pick up a 'Musician's Survival Kit' from Hosa. It'll give you a good start on emergency adapters for tapping into sound boards. Expect to spend $500-1000 on all your sound equipment.

- Buy a HD projector and screen to show off your work, or get a big screen LCD. There's a 40" Sony 1080p one over at Fry's for $1,300 right now. This is another one of those items that will make its money back by not having to rent one. I used a 32" as my primary monitor forever, and it was worth it. I didn't even need my secondary monitor, for the most part, and my timeline fit so nice across it. I wouldn't get plasma, as per they don't transport well unless you get hold of a commercial-grade unit.

- Extra batteries. I kept two of the biggest possible for each camera I owned, as well as rechargeables. I recommend the Eneloop Power Pack, as per many folks report that they don't die like other brands do. So far, I've heard that they're one of the few types that work well in constant-use, low drain devices like remotes and clocks. When the nice rechargeables came out, I wasted a ton of money on the supposed 'high energy' Energizer rechargeables. We chewed through a ton of those the first year. It seemed that they just weren't that great at holding up to our repetitive usage. I finally got sick of looking at $30 worth of batteries lying in the trashcan, and supposedly these work.

- You could always buy a laptop. I just picked one up at Wally World for $350 that has a nice, bright widescreen perfect for HD field monitoring. I've got to add a firewire card, but other than that, it was a great buy. You could also just bite the bullet and get a Macbook Pro, too. What a great machine to do SDEs with!

- A light kit is preferable. I got one of the Lowell DVCreator kits. Go with either the 44 or 55 kit, and you should be prepared for most situations. This will set you back a little more than a grand, but it's worth it. It'll pay for itself in one or two shoots vs. renting them. I highly recommend you also pick up an extra set of bulbs for every light in the kit. They're pricey, but nothing's worse than having a bulb go out on you and having to scramble to rearrange your setup to fit or have your footage no longer match because you were short a light.

- Again, I don't know your situation or how much equipment you have on hand, but you'll probably need tripods. I've used Bogen for years and they're worth the extra cost. When looking at legs, keep this in mind: although center connects leave you better off for support, don't get them. They'll end up limiting your flexibility later when you need to straddle something. I find that the ball head works best when I'm on the run. I can normally get the sticks in some sort of position, then adjust the head accordingly. On all of the cameras listed above, the 501 head should do a great job. You can get the 503 if you feel the need to on the bigger cameras, but overall it shouldn't be an issue. Also, get extra arms if you can. Having two vs. one point of contact with your tripod will make your pans smoother. Remember, your tripod is the most important investment you will make equipment-wise. A good set of sticks will last you throughout your career, so spend the money and make your life easier.

- Buy a pro level warranty to cover your equipment. I've heard some people just buying it at a big box to get the consumer warranty, and whereas that works, if they ever find out that you've used it commercially, you're toast. I don't think the pro warranty costs much more than the in-store ones anyway. Buy it for 4 or 5 years, as most things start messing up (if they're going to) around 3 years. Since the warranty is transferable in most cases, it adds value to the resale of your equipment when the time comes.

- TRAINING. First off, I'm not saying this to promote myself, but this is just personal experience. Buying all this nice equipment will mean little to nothing if you don't know how to use it. Get with whomever you can and get trained on it. Even if it's just a little, it'll help you hit the ground running and eliminate some of your downtime getting started. The worst thing is getting everything you want, getting really excited, then getting really frustrated (or botching a job) because it didn't work. I did it when I started out, and I'd recommend to anyone that they make some sort of training in whatever method they learn best a priority, and keep up with it.

___________________________________________
Rex Hollingsworth
Multimedia Specialist & Trainer
Adobe Certified Expert

RDaC - Research, Development and Creativity


RDaC
Novice

Nov 15, 2007, 12:17 AM

Post #6 of 10 (1712 views)
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Re: [RDaC] HDV Setup Suggestion [In reply to] Can't Post

Here's a couple of things I DO NOT recommend you buy:

- A bunch of expensive specialty lenses. Pick up maybe a telephoto lens and a fisheye lens for each type of camera, but that's it. Raynox lenses are some of the cheapest on the market, and they work just fine. Filters can be done in post, and lenses normally don't add a ton of resale value to your camera, so don't spend a lot on them. You could probably get away with just getting a telephoto for for the small back camera and fisheyes for both types, but if you ever get stuck in the back of a long room, it'd be nice to have it and just change up your configuration to have the extra boost of the bigger camera. You can't really rent these, unfortunately, so just try to get them as cheaply as possible.

- A tower duplicator. As per this is a nice thing to have around, normally your time can be spent better. Leave this task to the pros, as per it's easy to get pinned as the 'can you make this disc for me real quick' guy in a corporate situation. If you do get one, just make sure there's someone else there to manage it, as per your time is far more valuable than that. This makes good intern work

And to anybody that does have a duplicator, thank you for your hard work.

- A lightscribe drive. Love the results, hate the wait. To get a clear image, expect to be burning half an hour or more.

- An external DVD/VHS dubbing deck, especially one that 'upconverts'. As listed above, I had problems with my old one and I just didn't use it enough to justify the cost. Either outsource the capture or just bring a decent one from home and run it through your kicker camera back to your box. You'll get the same quality.

- A shotgun mic. For the most part, you'll get what you need without it, and if you really need one, rent it. Overall though, your wireless and on-camera should give you adequate room coverage.

- A boom pole. Another thing easily rented, along with cables needed and the person who knows how to use it. Don't get the interns to do this part, as experience counts on this one. If the person drops focus from the sound, then your sound drops out.

- I'll say it now and probably kick myself later for it, but here goes: don't buy a Matrox card. Granted I did, and I loved - LOVED - mine, it's picky about hardware and if you didn't get your start in the IT field, it's probably more than you're ready to manage on your own. If you do get one, stick to their recommended specs or buy it from a well-known system builder. When it works, it works great. When it doesn't, you want to cave your head in with a tack hammer. I'll let you guys know if I change my mind on that one after I go see the RT.X2 show here in a couple of weeks.

There's plenty more, but I think if I write another word, somebody in the forum police will stone me to death. Thanks for reading, and I hope this helps you out. If you have any further questions...well...I don't see how you could, but if you do, let me know.

___________________________________________
Rex Hollingsworth
Multimedia Specialist & Trainer
Adobe Certified Expert

RDaC - Research, Development and Creativity


RDaC
Novice

Nov 15, 2007, 12:18 AM

Post #7 of 10 (1710 views)
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Re: [RDaC] HDV Setup Suggestion [In reply to] Can't Post

Dang it! I keep on thinking of more things.

Anyways, when buying, don't be afraid to throw your weight around. That big of a purchase denotes special treatment, and don't walk away until you're satisfied with the buy.

One good example of this is nNovia. You might be able to get a better deal by communicating with them directly. They might give you a break if you'll allow them to use you as a case study on their website. Mercy Ships would make an excellent success story for them.

Post some comments if you've got experience with any of the above equipment, and take care-RH

___________________________________________
Rex Hollingsworth
Multimedia Specialist & Trainer
Adobe Certified Expert

RDaC - Research, Development and Creativity


RDaC
Novice

Nov 15, 2007, 12:20 AM

Post #8 of 10 (1707 views)
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Re: [RDaC] HDV Setup Suggestion [In reply to] Can't Post

### Follow Up After Matrox Seminar ###

My opinion on the Matrox card hasn't changed much. The technology's great, but it really isn't for me at this point. I can just think of too many things that would be money better spent at this point.

I do think that if you get a pretty brisk workflow that you could make your money back on it in time saved, but it's so picky about hardware that you'd almost have to buy a new editing rig to make it work, and I don't think that's in the cards for you on your budget right now.

$1,500 could buy another editing bay, and I think you'd gain more performance having another machine to edit or encode with vs. an accelerator card.

___________________________________________
Rex Hollingsworth
Multimedia Specialist & Trainer
Adobe Certified Expert

RDaC - Research, Development and Creativity


KevinShaw
Veteran

Nov 15, 2007, 11:12 AM

Post #9 of 10 (1701 views)
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Re: [RDaC] HDV Setup Suggestion [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Honestly, the A1 kicks the crap out of the FX1 (and the Z1U, for the price). I'm a long time Sony user, and it hurts me to say it, but the A1's got it beat, especially since they have the same price point. As far as low light performance, you can kick up the gain and use the built in noise reduction to really make some decent looking footage in otherwise unsuitable situations for HD.


In my experience the Canon HDV cameras are much too noisy in low light at the default camera settings, and I haven't had a chance to test the alternative settings some are using to mitigate this issue. Other than that the XH-A1 seems like a better value than the Sonys, but for those who shoot in dim light I don't recommend it. Can someone with more XH-A1 experience comment in detail about their low light experiences and camera settings?


KevinShaw
Veteran

Nov 15, 2007, 11:17 AM

Post #10 of 10 (1700 views)
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Re: [RDaC] HDV Setup Suggestion [In reply to] Can't Post

If it hasn't already been mentioned, a Blu-ray burner and a Sony PS3 with the optional remote control are good options for distributing and playing finished HD content.