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Home: Video University Forums: HDV:
High def weddings.

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Lydian
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Jun 5, 2005, 10:41 AM

Post #1 of 42 (4782 views)
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High def weddings.	Can't Post

Okay probably going to go for a hvr z1u, what i want to understand because i am confused is...
If i record for the day, do i have to put the camera on some sort of downconvert to sd whilst filming, thus not filming in true high def in the first place. Or do you film in high def, import into final cut hd, and then down convert to sd for output, ready for one day to export to hddvd.
Or do you always record in high def and when it comes time to import the footage to your computer, then decide whether you want to export the footage from the camera in hd or sd? I haven't got a clue how this works, but what i would like to do, is record the whole day in high definition, and then import it onto my mac in sd so i can stick it straight on to a playable dvd, leaving the option for the couple to come back in the future for a high def version of their wedding when the means and trend is available.

*Vu bookmarked on the phone.

Lydian
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Jun 5, 2005, 11:41 AM

Post #2 of 42 (4771 views)
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Re: [Lydian] High def weddings. [In reply to]	Can't Post

okay just read under trainig dvd's and see that the chap hedleyw obviously down converts from the hd master to sd for the edit.
Now i am wondering if i record in HD, then import in HD,and edit in HD, any ideas how long it would take to import 3-4 hours of high def into final cut pro HD, And..... wait for it.... any ideas how much storage (external hard drive) i would need to do 1 wedding from start to finish. I am thinking maybe 1 terrabyte for one job, and then just put the master back on to mini dv. what do you think?

*Vu bookmarked on the phone.

DVideography
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Jun 6, 2005, 12:06 AM

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KevinShaw
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Jun 6, 2005, 12:13 AM

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Re: [Lydian] High def weddings. [In reply to]	Can't Post

With the Sony HDV cameras you would usually shoot in HDV mode, since it's a simple matter to set the camera to downsample to DV during capture to the computer if that's all you need. If you have a fast G5 Mac with FCP5 you can opt to capture the HDV footage directly, which only takes as much drive space as DV footage, do all your editing and then decide whether to create HD or SD output (or both) at the end of the project. If you downsample to SD at the start you'd have to go back and recapture to HD to do an HD output, which seems like a lot of extra work.

videobear
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Jun 6, 2005, 12:43 AM

Post #5 of 42 (4726 views)
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Re: [DVideography] High def weddings. [In reply to]	Can't Post

Right. It's just very slow to edit native HDV footage (plus I'm not sure that many programs can handle it, due to the intraframe compression of MPEG2). It's when you convert it to an intermediate format for easier editing that it takes up a lot more room.

(This is just based on what I've read; I'm still doing SD DV here).

Regards,
Doug Graham
Panda Productions

Lydian
User

Jun 6, 2005, 2:06 AM

Post #6 of 42 (4718 views)
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Re: [videobear] High def weddings. [In reply to]	Can't Post

You're right i guess if i capture in sd, at some point years down the line if the client wants a HD copy i'm going to have to re-edit it.
The thing that worries me is the comment about FCP(or most editing systems) not being able to handle it.
Even with a G5 ramped up are you saying my work progress would be dramatically slowed?
In which case i may as well film in HD, downconvert to sd for capture, and keep the HD master until a time that computers can naturally edit HD. I am really keen on investing in hdv camera's because their has been so many positive posts about it in the forum.
I have a wedding videography buiseness on the south coast of England all the competion are in their sixties still punting out the usual uncle bob's bbc documentary's, i figure if i invest now when the time comes i will be well ahead.

*Vu bookmarked on the phone.

Morris
Enthusiast

Jun 6, 2005, 6:36 AM

Post #7 of 42 (4697 views)
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Re: [Lydian] High def weddings. [In reply to]	Can't Post

Quote

In which case i may as well film in HD, downconvert to sd for capture, and keep the HD master until a time that computers can naturally edit HD.

If you do that, would you be down converting to 4:3 letterbox or 4:3 with both sides cropped off?

szerangue
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Jun 6, 2005, 11:42 AM

Post #8 of 42 (4666 views)
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Re: [Lydian] High def weddings. [In reply to]	Can't Post

Lydian,
I can help you out with some of your questions. I am currently shooting weddings with 2 FX1s and 1 Z1U. I shoot everything in HDV and capture everything to my computer in HDV using the Canopus HQ Codec. This creates editable .avi files, highly compressed. There is a lot of misunderstanding about disk space but I can tell you that it does not requires as much as what some believe but it does require more than SD, (my personal experience) I just shot a rehearsal dinner, bridal prep, ceremony and reception. I had about 11 or 12 tapes. The raw capture files (.avi) are using about 285gb, a bit more than SD but not the monster originally thought. If you downconvert from your camera into SD and edit in SD, you will have to re-edit in HDV later if you choose, not wise but if you do not have the computer horsepower you will have no choice, and it does require computer horsepower. I am running a PC, (can't talk about the MACs as I know nothing about them), with dual 3.0ghz xeon procs and 3gb ram with a 128mb video card. I get pretty good performance and RT playback using Edius 3.0, but just a few complicated filters will cause me to render. Editing in HDV is not really any slower than SD if you have the horsepower, you just need to re-think how you do it a little. With SD you can just drop a filter and hit playback, many layers, many filters, no problem. HDV does not give you that luxury unless you are really using a very powerful computer, even with the most powerful Intel proc out there you are still going to be limited to about 3 layers of HDV with filters. You can expect to render some editing a wedding video with effects.
After you edit in HDV, then you can encode to any format you like. Since delivery is on DVD, I encode to DVD, author my DVD and deliver on DVD. I then have an HDV project ready to encode to HD DVD whenever its available and ready.
I hope this helps.
Miracle Pictures
"If it's a good picture, it's a Miracle!"

"Life Productions, coming out of the dark, into the light"
4EVER GROUP AFFILIATE

Lydian
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Jun 6, 2005, 1:07 PM

Post #9 of 42 (4651 views)
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Re: [Morris] High def weddings. [In reply to]	Can't Post

Can't you just downconvert to sd but maintain widescreen 16:9?

*Vu bookmarked on the phone.

Lydian
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Jun 6, 2005, 1:14 PM

Post #10 of 42 (4649 views)
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Re: [szerangue] High def weddings. [In reply to]	Can't Post

Thanks shane i was hoping to discuss more with you at some point because i read alot of your remarks in the various forums and i tend to agree and think along similar lines to you, you are currently doing what i want to be doing so your advice is appreciated.
shame you don't know anything about macs because i'd like to know how my set up will run, i will probably stick a question in the mac forum regarding that. When you say you are probably limited to three layers do you mean after that it starts to lose a bit of quality or 3 layers full stop.
I'm just wondering if it loses a bit of resolution if it really matters because the clips will be dissolved into one another.
Can you mix sd footage with HD footage on the timeline?

*Vu bookmarked on the phone.

Morris
Enthusiast

Jun 6, 2005, 2:00 PM

Post #11 of 42 (4642 views)
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Re: [Lydian] High def weddings. [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

Can't you just downconvert to sd but maintain widescreen 16:9?

My understanding is that the Z1 can down convert 16:9 HDV to either 4:3 letterbox or 4:3 full screen with the sides cropped off. And that the FX1 can only down convert to 4:3 letterbox. Any other type of down conversion will have to be done by software.

- second paragraph deleted by Morris

(This post was edited by Morris on Jun 6, 2005, 2:06 PM)

Lydian
User

Jun 6, 2005, 2:09 PM

Post #12 of 42 (4635 views)
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Re: [Morris] High def weddings. [In reply to]	Can't Post

Okay that's interesting thanks morris, i am still trying to get my head round this.
Why, if i film in 16x9 and downconvert to sd can't i retain 16x9 format without letterboxing it and squishhing it into 4x3.
Is it because of the way HDV is made up.
It seems ridiculous that you can film in true 16x9 SD etc but 16x9 HDV has to be squished into 4x3 because it's compressed back to SD.
Or am i on my own cloud on this one and not understanding?

*Vu bookmarked on the phone.

szerangue
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Jun 6, 2005, 2:10 PM

Post #13 of 42 (4634 views)
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Re: [Lydian] High def weddings. [In reply to]	Can't Post

With more than 3 layers, quality is not the issue, it is processing power. At this point in the game, at least when it comes to PCs, a dual 3.6ghz xeon procs machine is about as powerful as you can get. Add about 4gb of memory and you have a pretty substantial computer. But even with that, you can only get about 3 layers of HDV with filters playback in RT. This will change as computers get more powerful. Also, keep in mind, I am using Canopus Edius 3.0 with the NX card. The NX card is doing a lot of video processing which allows us to playback the HDV layers in RT.
Miracle Pictures
"If it's a good picture, it's a Miracle!"

"Life Productions, coming out of the dark, into the light"
4EVER GROUP AFFILIATE

Lydian
User

Jun 6, 2005, 3:55 PM

Post #14 of 42 (4616 views)
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Re: [szerangue] High def weddings. [In reply to]	Can't Post

Aha! 3 layers is the limit, see as you say all this i am wondering what the equivelent power is in a mac, and i'm betting it's probably the same in which case, are you feeling limited to using HDV? Admittedly i'm not sure how often i will use more than 3 layers, though frustrating all this isn't it, considering the hype is all about "the year of high definition."
I just want to plug and play.

*Vu bookmarked on the phone.

szerangue
Veteran

Jun 6, 2005, 6:22 PM

Post #15 of 42 (4592 views)
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Re: [Lydian] High def weddings. [In reply to]	Can't Post

Not feeling limited at all, there are just limitations to be reckoned with. I usually do not edit more than 3 layers. Although in this last project I have one clip where I have created an effect that uses 7 layers with PIP and and 2 pretty sophisticated filters. This section of the timeline will not play in RT, but if I use my buffer, it plays fine. Is this a limitation? I guess you could call it that. But it is not a limitation to me. And also, I would definitely not say I am frustrated. I am successfully producing HDV movies, I love the color and the clarity, it is a great medium. Not for everyone, however.
Miracle Pictures
"If it's a good picture, it's a Miracle!"

"Life Productions, coming out of the dark, into the light"
4EVER GROUP AFFILIATE

KevinShaw
Veteran

Jun 6, 2005, 7:38 PM

Post #16 of 42 (4584 views)
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Re: [videobear] High def weddings. [In reply to]	Can't Post

Doug: that's all true, but after running some tests this weekend I'm no longer so concerned about native HDV editing being a big problem. My brother and I decided to try capturing native HDV from a Sony FX1 using the Canopus Edius software, and it turned out we were able to do effective single-layer editing on two different single-processor PCs (2.8 and 3.2 GHz). For best results with HDV you'd obviously want the fastest computer you can afford, but now that I know I can work with unconverted footage on my current computer, I see no rush to start converting everything to an intermediate format. If I was using Adobe Premiere I'd convert HDV to the Cineform codec because that's what works, but I'm no longer inclined to think I need to do that in order to get results.

In regards to the original poster's question, if you're sure that all you want for now is SD output, then just capture from the camera in DV format (using widescreen format settings) and edit accordingly. Save the original HDV tapes for future reference, but don't expect too many customers to come back asking about that.

AEMIKEA
User

Jun 8, 2005, 8:42 PM

Post #17 of 42 (4471 views)
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Re: [Lydian] High def weddings. [In reply to]	Can't Post

If you shoot in HDV you can downcovert from the camera to 16:9 or 4:3 with the z1 or fx1

Mike

DVideography
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Jun 11, 2005, 11:16 PM

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Lydian
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Jun 12, 2005, 5:06 AM

Post #19 of 42 (4389 views)
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Re: [DVideography] High def weddings. [In reply to]	Can't Post

Okay thanks everyone, so now i know i can record in HDV in widescreen, and downconvert to SD in widescreen, but now i am thinking about editing in HD.
I normally use an XL2 but i am thinking for a wedding i have at the begining of august i am going to hire a Z1 and go for it.
Dave are you saying you do all this on a mac and it's not slow editing HD?

*Vu bookmarked on the phone.

DVideography
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Jun 12, 2005, 11:59 AM

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toni
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Jun 14, 2005, 5:24 PM

Post #21 of 42 (4275 views)
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Re: [DVideography] High def weddings. [In reply to]	Can't Post

Dave which G5, Ram, HD space do you have?

toni

Terry T.
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Jun 14, 2005, 6:26 PM

Post #22 of 42 (4265 views)
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Re: [szerangue] High def weddings. [In reply to]	Can't Post

I apologize for butting into this conversation, but it's very informative.

Am I understanding this scenario correctly?
If you shoot AND capture in HDV....then edit in HDV.....you will then do 2 things with the edited HDV footage.

1) you will output to HDV tape, and save it for the bride who is willing to pay(or not pay, however one's contract reads), when she finally has all the HD components in her home so she can view her HD wedding. Which then you will REcapture the HDV tape into your system and encode in whatever format is then available and necessary to be able to deliver to the bride an HD product.

2) you will also output to SD tape and/or encode for SD DVD to deliver to the bride now.

As of June 2005, is this what most of you, in the HD world are doing?

Thank you for sharing your knowlege in this subject.
---------
Terry T.
www.studiovc.com

AEMIKEA
User

Jun 14, 2005, 8:42 PM

Post #23 of 42 (4252 views)
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Re: [Terry T.] High def weddings. [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Terry, what I do now is capture using cineform codec, edit, export directly to m2v (from my Premiere timeline) for DVD (much, much better quality than DV to DVD, example being, motion pictures to DVD look fantastic, If you start higher quality (HDV) your DVD's will look so much better, anyway. I have a complete wedding edited in HDV (export to tape for archive, I use a DVHS recorder or my Sony) Then when they are ready I sell them an HDV version, meantime they have a very high quality DVD, and you can see the difference between a PD170 to DVD and an HDV to DVD regardless of what people who have never used one will say, there is a clear difference. I also will capture in DV, make an edl (batch capture)list after the complete edit, then recapture only the HDV segments I need which saves on space, so The answer to your question is "Yes" to what you describe. Hope that helped?

Mike

TomParke
Novice

Jun 15, 2005, 8:37 AM

Post #24 of 42 (4235 views)
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Re: [AEMIKEA] High def weddings. [In reply to]	Can't Post

This has been an excellent thread and I am pleased with the success you folks are experiencing. I have not done much HDV editing on my Mac [G5 2.5 DP 4 GB RAM], although I did use FCE HD that transcoded my Z1 footage before FCP 5 came out. One comment and question: The editing of HDV is not too much more time consuming, however, I have not been able to convert HDV native footage to either H.264 or MPEG2 very efficiently or timely. You may only be doing this if you wanted to create a HD-DVD disc that would only play on your Mac [or PC] as there are very few set top players available. I am interested in knowing how much time it takes to encode to HD-DVDs as I have a concern with this. When I transcoded HDV back to the camera when using FCE HD, it took about five times real time, which seemed reasonable. When I attempted to encode HDV footage to H.264 [or MPEG2] using Compressor, I quit when it indicated 22 hours and didn't seem to make much progress. I haven't tried it again since I have a production schedule to keep, but I would like to know about any successes in this area. Thanks!

Tom Parke
ProScan DP
Tom Parke
ProScan DP

szerangue
Veteran

Jun 15, 2005, 11:35 AM

Post #25 of 42 (4224 views)
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Re: [TomParke] High def weddings. [In reply to]	Can't Post

Tom, I am not surprised at the 22 hour encode time. Encoding now is done strictly through software and it is a beast to create an HD production from your timeline. This will have to improve before we can expect to deliver HD-DVD even when the discs become available.
Miracle Pictures
"If it's a good picture, it's a Miracle!"

"Life Productions, coming out of the dark, into the light"
4EVER GROUP AFFILIATE

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