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Home: Video University Forums: HDV:
How did you choose which HD camera???

WOTR
Enthusiast

Jul 17, 2006, 6:31 PM

Post #1 of 18 (3550 views)
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How did you choose which HD camera???	Can't Post

I'm a longtime DVX100 user. I have 3 of them and they get used regularly.

I've been looking into HD for awhile and reading up on the various cameras.

What worries me is that there seems to be a downside to every HD camera I read about. When I was researching mini-DV cameras there wasn't so much downside but rather 'do you need that feature'. For example, most people seemed to like the DVX100 but some people said 'You don't really need 24p'.

With the HD cameras it seems like I find something wrong with every model I look at.

Here are the potential pitfalls I read about the HVX100

--P2 cards are unrealiable
--Short recording time on P2 make use for events impractical
--The recorded image is not true HD but rather an up-rezzed signal

Someone suggested I look at the JVC. The first thing I read is

--The Discovery Channel deems footage from the JVC is unacceptable

Isn't there a good basic HD camera or do I have to deal with shortcomings with any model?

clock
Veteran

Jul 18, 2006, 6:55 AM

Post #2 of 18 (3521 views)
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Re: [WOTR] How did you choose which HD camera??? [In reply to]	Can't Post

At this moment, I would say the FX1/Z1 are probably the best bang for buck around. Yes, you don't have progressive but thats not an issue. If it is, Cineform's Connect HD solves that problem very nicely.

You also need to decide in which field your are going to be using the cams - wedding & event videograhy, or other work too. For wedding & event videography, the HVX is at the moment a no brainer with the cost and size of the cards.

With the cost of P2 cards, it makes the HVX a bit of a dodger but that doesn't mean that it won't work. You will just have to spend quite a few more bucks to get a lot of P2 cards or Firestore.

In five years time, the HVX philosophy with tapeless system will probably become the norm - it just makes logical sense. Sony's doing it with their bigger cams so I can see it filtering down thu to the prosumer market too.

Cheers

Jeremy

SUCCESS comes before WORK only in the dictionary

RustyB
Veteran

Jul 18, 2006, 10:09 AM

Post #3 of 18 (3515 views)
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Re: [clock] How did you choose which HD camera??? [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

To me, 24p is very big deal. If the new DVX100 had been native 16:9, I would have picked it over the FX1. If the native 16:9, 24p, XL2 had a decent LCD, I would have chose it. (I'm still kinda regretting not getting the XL2, but since I'm getting out of wedding video, the FX1 will be great for making short films.)

I've rendered out some 60i HDV FX1 projects to 24p DVD using Vegas, and it looks pretty good, but the pulldown still didn't seem quite right. I've heard lots of good things about using ConnectHD to convert to 24p, so that's what I'll probably eventually buy. If it works as well as everyone claims, it'll make the FX1 a pretty awesome camera for my needs.

But for weddings, if you're not interested in 16:9, I'd stick with your DVX's. If you want a native 16:9 camera with a great image, I'd spend the bucks on the Z1, if only for the two audio inputs, since I'm no fan of beachtek type adapters. Like clock says, they're about the best bang for the buck out there.

As for the "need" to switch to HD...I've had 1-2 HDV cams for almost 8 months I think. Have not edited a wedding in HDV. Have no way to deliver in HD. Don't have the software to edit HDV. Have not had a customer ask me for their video in HD. Have not been able to charge more because I shoot HDV. So, I've been downconverting during capture to DV. The FX1 has some quirks, compared to my VX2000, but the image is still very nice after downconversion, compared to the VX2000 in it's "wide mode".

Faith Poison Wedding Films Blog
Intergalactic Award-Winning Epic-Cinematic Wedding New-Doc Style Indie Fusion Bridal Movies on Hi-Definition Blu-Ray Disc

WOTR
Enthusiast

Jul 18, 2006, 10:21 AM

Post #4 of 18 (3513 views)
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Re: [WOTR] How did you choose which HD camera??? [In reply to]	Can't Post

Good advice guys! Thanks! Much appreciated.

Postal Boy
Veteran

Jul 18, 2006, 1:06 PM

Post #5 of 18 (3496 views)
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Re: [WOTR] How did you choose which HD camera??? [In reply to]	Can't Post

For me, progressive is advantageous if you are going to do any compositing work (green/blue screeen). You can de-interlace it, but that isn't as crisp for compositing. During true motion video deinterlaced footage works great. Our eyes aren't as picky as a key puller.

The flip side is that if you are going to film out you will probably want to start with 24p just so you don't have to go through the process of converting 60i to 24p. Sure it looks good, but time is money...and it isn't a fast process.

As far as a "movie look" goes, a lot of that is lighting, depth-of-field in the lense (proper iris/zoom adjustments), proper USE of zoom (in other words, don't do it), camera angles, and lighting...oh, did I say lighting already (hint)? Movies go through an extensive process of color grading in post. Look at what the "behind the scenes" footage, and what is shot only provides the base of what is seen in the final product. However, you lay a good foundation and you can build on it. Lay a poor foundation and everything you build on it looks like crap.

For film out and compositing, 24p or even 30p (something progressive) is the better foundation, but interlaced (especially HD) can be used for the same thing, with very good results, if you do the taping right. It just takes more steps (and hence, more time).

As far as which camera to choose, what do you want to do with it, and how much are you willing to spend on it? That is basically what it boils down to.

-Postal

RustyB
Veteran

Jul 18, 2006, 1:40 PM

Post #6 of 18 (3494 views)
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Re: [Postal Boy] How did you choose which HD camera??? [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

....As far as a "movie look" goes, a lot of that is lighting, depth-of-field in the lense (proper iris/zoom adjustments), proper USE of zoom (in other words, don't do it), camera angles, and lighting...oh, did I say lighting already (hint)?....

Yep, those terms get confused a lot when it comes to video.

To get the "film look", there is only one factor....24p. No matter how bad the lighting, no matter what lens, or whether the camera is strapped to the back of a chimpanzee on crack...the only thing you need to instantly transform "video look" to "film look" is to switch from 60i to 24p.

As for making a 24p video shot with a 1/3" camcorder looking anything like a movie, I'd say it's a pretty lofty goal for a wedding, but I've seen some nice looking short films done with DVX's with controlled lighting, good camera man, dollies/jibs, etc.. I'm hoping I can do the same with my FX1, and successfully convert it to 24p for true "film look" short movies. Otherwise, I'll dump it for the JVC, with no intention of doing weddings anymore.

Faith Poison Wedding Films Blog
Intergalactic Award-Winning Epic-Cinematic Wedding New-Doc Style Indie Fusion Bridal Movies on Hi-Definition Blu-Ray Disc

KevinShaw
Veteran

Jul 18, 2006, 3:13 PM

Post #7 of 18 (3488 views)
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Re: [WOTR] How did you choose which HD camera??? [In reply to]	Can't Post

My conclusion after comparing inexpensive HD cameras from Sony, JVC, Canon and Panasonic is that the design and operation of the cameras may be as important in choosing between them as anything else. The Sonys are the most like typical DV cameras many of us have used in the past and also the best value at this time; the other three are more specialized in ways you'll either appreciate or not. The JVC is good if you like shoulder-mounted cameras and don't mind having to focus manually, the Canon is nice if you need a long zoom lens and can deal with the size and weight of the camera, and the Panasonic is good if you want DVCProHD recording and can afford to pay $150 per minute of recording time to get it. If none of these cameras meet your needs at a price you can afford then stick with SD for now until other HD cameras come along.

Postal Boy
Veteran

Jul 18, 2006, 3:21 PM

Post #8 of 18 (3485 views)
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Re: [RustyB] How did you choose which HD camera??? [In reply to]	Can't Post

Rusty, I can't wait until theaters go 60p and digital projection...then we will all be screwed again when we try to make a "movie"...And our kids will think all of our stuff looks like 1920's silent flicks. Mad

I still want movies to come out with the look of the old John Wayne/Clint Eastwood pics...even newer westerns look too "new" to me Crazy

- although Silverado (well, it IS newER) wasn't bad.

Postal

mpstrex
Novice

Jul 23, 2006, 8:46 PM

Post #9 of 18 (3432 views)
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Re: [Postal Boy] How did you choose which HD camera??? [In reply to]	Can't Post

I love the Z1, though the XL H1 is cool, the HVX200 has a good image (P2 is a pain-in-the-neck to work with), and I like the HD100's image in terms of how it handles highlights.

If I were to buy a camera tomorrow, it would be the Z1. Where I work, we use the Z1, FX1 and even the DVX100a, my favorite minidv camera.

mpstrex

bbalser
User

Jul 27, 2006, 11:21 AM

Post #10 of 18 (3396 views)
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Re: [mpstrex] How did you choose which HD camera??? [In reply to]	Can't Post

I'm shooting a large documentary project with the HVX200 and FS-100 now. I love it. This rig has gone through sweltering heat, rain, dirt, swamps, we shoot from boats, it's been banged up pretty good, and still runs fantastic.

The images are fantastic. P2 is as stable as any other medium, just different. I'd never go to any other format lesser than DVCPRO-HD. I find the whole rig and work flow to be fantastic and really reliable and gives us fantastic image quality. It also cuts our production time in half.

All the cameras mentinoed here are great cameras. But the HVX200 is really a super nice camera, fantastic image quality, and super stable. Not to mention very easy to use, flexible and powerful. It is a true "digital film" camera, not a traditional video camera.

KevinShaw
Veteran

Jul 27, 2006, 12:11 PM

Post #11 of 18 (3391 views)
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Re: [bbalser] How did you choose which HD camera??? [In reply to]	Can't Post

Ben: does the FS-100 support all the shooting modes you need from the HVX200? How are you archiving your footage?

mpstrex
Novice

Aug 8, 2006, 12:17 PM

Post #12 of 18 (3233 views)
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Re: [RustyB] How did you choose which HD camera??? [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

To get the "film look", there is only one factor....24p. No matter how bad the lighting, no matter what lens, or whether the camera is strapped to the back of a chimpanzee on crack...the only thing you need to instantly transform "video look" to "film look" is to switch from 60i to 24p.

I have to say, it takes a lot more than going to 24p to look like film. It's part of the equation, but so is lighting, angles, movement, depth of field, etc. I shot plenty of stuff in 60i that looks like film because I achieved all those elements of a film look, and changing it to 24p was the final part of the equation.

mpstrex

observerXP
Veteran

Sep 6, 2006, 5:19 AM

Post #13 of 18 (3025 views)
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Re: [mpstrex] How did you choose which HD camera??? [In reply to]	Can't Post

I can assure you that you won't regret buying the FX1.

Here's a frame grab--shot in 30CF.

FX1, DVC30, XH A1, VX2000

Nikon D50, SB-600, Nikkor 18-55, Tamron 28-75
Nikon FM2, Nikkor 50mm F1.4

bbalser
User

Oct 9, 2006, 12:32 PM

Post #14 of 18 (2780 views)
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Re: [WOTR] How did you choose which HD camera??? [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

Here are the potential pitfalls I read about the HVX100

--P2 cards are unrealiable
--Short recording time on P2 make use for events impractical
--The recorded image is not true HD but rather an up-rezzed signal

Well, nothing could be further from the truth! P2 cards are now proven to be super reliable, more so than tape. The P2Store, FS-100, and soon the CinePorter make the short recording times of P2 cards a non-issue. My FS-100 has been as realiable as any tape ever was for me. And it is a TRUE HD image, not up-rezzed. Don't know where you got this info, but it is so far from the truth it ain't funny. For the full scoop on this camera and workflow, contact me off board, or check out the forums at DVXuser.com. It is a digital film camera, very nice, super picture, everything it claims to be. If all I did were weddings, I stick with my DVX100a's. But I have larger projects going on that require HD, and DVCPRO-HD is the format many, many, many bordcasters are using now. Remember that the P2 technology and workflow have been used by broadcasters for 4 years now. The HVX-200 only brings the price down to a level the rest of us can afford. In fact, many ABC affiliates are going DVCPRO/P2 now, at the urging and assistance of ABC. That's not even a drop in the bucket of who's using the format and workflow. I'd strongly question your references. Be sure it's not someone on Sony's payroll.

(This post was edited by bbalser on Oct 9, 2006, 12:43 PM)

bbalser
User

Oct 9, 2006, 12:34 PM

Post #15 of 18 (2779 views)
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Re: [kwshaw1] How did you choose which HD camera??? [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

Ben: does the FS-100 support all the shooting modes you need from the HVX200? How are you archiving your footage?

Yes it does, and with the v.3.0 firmware update coming out, it'll automatically detect the camera's set up, record natively to QuickTime DVCPRO-HD or native MXF, and will record in the Native modes, too.

I archive to DVDs and a dedicated archive network drive.

(This post was edited by bbalser on Oct 9, 2006, 12:44 PM)

WOTR
Enthusiast

Oct 9, 2006, 1:33 PM

Post #16 of 18 (2769 views)
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Re: [bbalser] How did you choose which HD camera??? [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Ben,

Thanks for your reply on the HVX200. Much appreciated!

You're correct, the source of my HVX200 information came from diehard Sony fans. That's what great about boards like this. I can post what I've been told and get some different insight on the camera.

Thanks again!

Mark

KevinShaw
Veteran

Oct 10, 2006, 12:48 AM

Post #17 of 18 (2759 views)
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Re: [bbalser] How did you choose which HD camera??? [In reply to]	Can't Post

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And it is a TRUE HD image, not up-rezzed. Don't know where you got this info, but it is so far from the truth it ain't funny.

Sorry, the truth is that the sensors in the Panasonic have only 960x540 pixels (per Panasonic), which are then interpolated to generate recorded resolutions of 960x720 for 720p and 1280x1080 for 1080p, using non-square pixels to conserve bandwidth. In terms of resolution this camera is definitely not "true HD," but the higher recorded bandwidth compared to HDV does yield better color depth and a more robust image for broadcast transmission purposes. As far as use for weddings is concerned, you'd need at least two Firestore drives per camera to get through a long event with the HVX200, which at a cost of $1900 per drive would bring the effective cost of one camera setup to around $10K with accessories. That's enough to buy 2-3 good HDV cameras with accessories, which is why you see a lot more wedding videographers shooting HDV than buying the HVX200. It's a nice camera for some purposes, but it's just not very practical for event work.

(This post was edited by kwshaw1 on Oct 10, 2006, 12:51 AM)

Chuck_e7
Veteran

Nov 21, 2006, 5:22 PM

Post #18 of 18 (2328 views)
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Re: [RustyB] How did you choose which HD camera??? [In reply to]	Can't Post

"the camera is strapped to the back of a chimpanzee on crack"

I love it! A new idea comes along every day! Thanks Mr. Rusty!

"600 yards out, I can still see you!"