Video University: Video University Forums: HDV: Interesting thread concerning Z1 and low light: Page 2

VideoUniversity.com
Home	Free Library	Store
Free Catalog Please support VU by making your B&H purchases and links through this B&H ad. Doesn't cost a penny more.

See The New VU Postcard Catalog

To post in the forums see the Forum Guidelines.

Join or Renew Today.
New Benefits for all VU Members

Forum Guidelines and FAQ
Main Index	Search Posts
Who's Online	Log In

Home: Video University Forums: HDV:
Interesting thread concerning Z1 and low light

1 2

View All

Joel
Veteran

Jan 31, 2005, 1:42 PM

Post #26 of 37 (1875 views)
Shortcut

Re: [szerangue] Interesting thread concerning Z1 and low light [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Shane,

If you read his whole post about the Z1U and follow his link to his personal site you'll see that he wasn't completely dising the the camera - in fact he had some very good things to say about it's potential in the hands of a DP that could control the light. I wasn't able to watch your footage unfortunately - my Mac had a problem with the Windows stream. I'll try to download it again.

Joel

"Think of this business as a room with a huge table and a bunch of chairs around the table. There is a big pie on the table. Your mission is to take your place at the table, pick up your fork, and eat your pie. Do not look to the left and do not look to the right. Just eat your pie. There is plenty of pie for everyone."

starting | perfectionists

Joel
Veteran

Jan 31, 2005, 1:44 PM

Post #27 of 37 (1874 views)
Shortcut

Re: [DSE] Interesting thread concerning Z1 and low light [In reply to]	Can't Post

"Equals---you can't draw any conclusion."

Exactly. But a DP can control their lighting - we never can.

Joel

"Think of this business as a room with a huge table and a bunch of chairs around the table. There is a big pie on the table. Your mission is to take your place at the table, pick up your fork, and eat your pie. Do not look to the left and do not look to the right. Just eat your pie. There is plenty of pie for everyone."

starting | perfectionists

DSE
Veteran

Jan 31, 2005, 2:08 PM

Post #28 of 37 (1861 views)
Shortcut

Re: [Joel] Interesting thread concerning Z1 and low light [In reply to]	Can't Post

K, I'll reiterate. Jody's tests were entirely in existing room light or no light. Read what the Cinemaminima people had to say. They were there as well. BBC came to the same conclusion. No lighting was used for the JAG shots, same with the NCIS footage, and Jody also tested it in a variety of late night situations such as the Promenade after hours at Santa Monica, late night shots in a hotel, and dark shots in the desert. NOTHING ever shot by Jody Eldred or Beto Lopez has had the benefit of any lighting, they both shot entirely with only the camera, except that in the JAG shots, Jody used a mattebox and follow focus. Nothing additional. I'm not going to copy/paste from the Cinemaminima site, that's not right to do, but his words/their words are posted there.
If you're happy taking the word of an amatuer that's had at most 3 days with the camera vs the word of various people who've had the cam for a couple months, that's cool by me. I don't care whether you buy one or not, it's not like I get any thrill or benefit out of it. But it's a little silly making judgements on a cam that you've not seen, and only heard words from a very recent owner that likely doesn't even know how to navigate the fairly deep menus with. This is NOT a fast cam to set up, hence the 14 presettable buttons that make the setups instantly accessible when it's called up. But setting them takes time. Also, if the monitor isn't set up much like you'd set up a CRT, then you'll not have clean shots either.

Douglas Spotted Eagle
Author, producer, composer
www.vasst.com
"I enjoy music, long walks at sunset on the beach, and poking dead things with a sharp stick."

videobear
Veteran

Jan 31, 2005, 3:00 PM

Post #29 of 37 (1843 views)
Shortcut

Re: [DSE] Interesting thread concerning Z1 and low light [In reply to]	Can't Post

If we can move away from the low light argument for a moment...

Douglas, you say that the camera is not quick to set up. Yet, run and gun shooting is a mainstay of event video. Are the presets in the camera of such a nature that one can use a generic preset for, say, "outdoor overcast day", and have it work for pretty much ANY outdoor overcast day? Or must the camera be specifically set up for each shooting situation? If you see what I'm getting at...

Regards,
Doug Graham
Panda Productions

DSE
Veteran

Jan 31, 2005, 3:40 PM

Post #30 of 37 (1825 views)
Shortcut

Re: [videobear] Interesting thread concerning Z1 and low light [In reply to]	Can't Post

No, the cam doesn't have to be set up for every situation. However, it's probably a good idea to set up the more "known" situations where you might need instant iris/shutter/gamma/gain changes so you're not fiddling around with it. You've got 14 presets there, that should set you up for most situations. For instance, going from outdoors to indoors requires the flick of the WB switch and that's it. But maybe when you get indoors it's merc vapor rather than tungsten, so you might want a setup for that. Or maybe it's gonna be really dark or really bright indoors, so you might want a setup for that.
Frankly, for *most* shooting, the out-of-the-box in full auto is pretty impressive too.

Douglas Spotted Eagle
Author, producer, composer
www.vasst.com
"I enjoy music, long walks at sunset on the beach, and poking dead things with a sharp stick."

bideoguy
User

Jan 31, 2005, 6:13 PM

Post #31 of 37 (1781 views)
Shortcut

Re: [Mathew] Interesting thread concerning Z1 and low light [In reply to]	Can't Post

Bottom line is its stupid to not buy a HD camera now if you have the money, why invest in technology (DV) that is going away if not now soon. HDV/HD is the future, learn how to use it, as a "professional" videographer isn't it our job to enhance the picture anyway? The same argument for HD can be stated when buying a new TV. Do you want to pay $500 for a 32 inch non-HD tv or do you want to pay $750 for a true HD tv that will look 10x nicer ? HD/HDV is the future!

Morris
Enthusiast

Feb 1, 2005, 2:26 PM

Post #32 of 37 (1741 views)
Shortcut

Re: [bideoguy] Interesting thread concerning Z1 and low light [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

I assume you are referring to the FX1 when you refer to buying a HD camera now. As I'm sure you know, the FX1 is HDV not HD, and true HD cameras would be out of the price range of just about all of the folks who post or lurk on this forum.

If you are referring to the FX1 as the camera to buy now, a question is: "Is 1080i really going to be the future for HDV?" If JVC and Panasonic both release 3 chip 720p cameras could 720p have a chance to become the HDV standard for wedding video work?

I recently read an article that said though some smaller wide screen sets support 1080i, current larger wide screen TV sets do not have 1080i capability and use 720p. The article said that 1080i footage shown on the larger sets has to be down converted from 1080i to 720p. (Not sure if the down conversion is built into the sets or not.)

I also read two different articles that say slow-mo using 720p60 is much better than slow-mo using interlaced formats. If that is true, will wedding videographers migrate to 720p instead of 1080i?

There's so many unanswered questions regarding HDV right now,
Morris

al4video
Enthusiast

Feb 1, 2005, 4:50 PM

Post #33 of 37 (1720 views)
Shortcut

Re: [DSE] Interesting thread concerning Z1 and low light [In reply to]	Can't Post

This thread is interesting.
Lets say we all love the camera, the pictures , the audio, the low light etc.

How about workflow. All of our commercials and television are shot iin beta. And no client is looking to change yet.

So say we use this camera to replace the PD150 for weddings and longform events. Events where the final edit is 1 hour and a half to 2 hours.

What does the workflow look like.? Computer CPU's are maxed out at present, even in dual zeon. Most solutions such as Canopus cant hande multiple streams in realtimes, and surely not with effects. So lot's of rendering. Then the conversion for delivery, dvd etc...

How much time does it add to the workflow? How do we recoup that cost. I remember when DVD was new. I wrote an article about how quickly it would be considered the norm by our clients, and they would expect to pay no more for it than VHS. Well thats come to past.

We do several car dealerships weekly. None of them are interested in HD or HDV. All their doing is hawking some new sale every week.

My commercial clients don't want it , for now that is. It will add many hours to long form workflow. Has a much higher investment in the total package.

Can anybody explain the changes in time in the workflow and delivery.?

And how or will we add extra profits with this added investment?.

And i say all of this with the belief that in the not too distant future we will all own this or a similar solution.

Mathew
Veteran

Feb 1, 2005, 5:11 PM

Post #34 of 37 (1717 views)
Shortcut

Re: [bideoguy] Interesting thread concerning Z1 and low light [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

Well I guess stupid is a relative term here. On the other side of the fence there are a lot of working professionals making excellent money who are not even considering HD at this time.

To be honost I don't see a huge difference in quality between a $500 SD and a $750 HD set. Those price points will buy you a fairly nice 32" SD set or a smallish HD set. 16:9 loses me under 30". In fact I was eyeing a 32" Sony 4:3 HD ready set at Costco the other night for $900. I'm not bothered by leterbox and I since I'm still shooting 4:3 I'd like a nice monitor to preview my work on.

An HD camera is a tool. What's stupid is buying a tool that you have no use for and wearing it out before it becomes relevant.

szerangue
Veteran

Feb 1, 2005, 8:41 PM

Post #35 of 37 (1695 views)
Shortcut

Re: [szerangue] Interesting thread concerning Z1 and low light [In reply to]	Can't Post

I think anyone who is actively making a living at producing videos and is interested in the bottom line, should stay in the format they have now and are comfortable with. I see no reason, from a business standpoint, strictly financially speaking, that a videographer who does not want to change formats should change formats. If you are interested in it, have the money to spend, I say go for it.
Geesh, enough already with the HDV battle.
Miracle Pictures
"If it's a good picture, it's a Miracle!"

"Life Productions, coming out of the dark, into the light"
4EVER GROUP AFFILIATE

LAWMAN
Novice

Feb 1, 2005, 9:19 PM

Post #36 of 37 (1693 views)
Shortcut

Re: [DSE] Interesting thread concerning Z1 and low light [In reply to]	Can't Post

Agreed!. And that's exactly my point. Put that HDV footage in the timeline and that 32:1 compression is going to suffer even more ...

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But you're right, there are people thinking they can compete with the guy that owns a 100K cam by only spending 5K, and while the images can be made very similar, they aren't the same images. Sony would be slitting their own throat if they did something that dumb. Not to mention bleeding money.
The grail is still CineAlta or ViperCam.

DSE
Veteran

Feb 1, 2005, 9:38 PM

Post #37 of 37 (1683 views)
Shortcut

Re: [LAWMAN] Interesting thread concerning Z1 and low light [In reply to]	Can't Post

Quote
Put that HDV footage in the timeline and that 32:1 compression is going to suffer even more ...

Not so. The intermediary that converts it to 4:2:2 is an excellent tool. So good that it was used to print straight to 35mm transfer for "Dust to Glory" which is on 825 theatrical screens across the US alone.
the compression uses nearly the same technology as the Beta SX format and IMX format. It decodes very, very well, which is the bigger deal. It's not as much the compression as it is the encode/decode these days. And only a masochist wants to edit native HDV in 4:2:0 format, that's simply silly. Not only will it fall apart, but it's a painful experience on either a Mac or PC due to the number of cycles it requires, and the amount of memory it requires. Now we're starting to see companies advertise "Native HDV Editing" but what they don't tell you is that they're still using an intermediary, but keeping it 4:2:0. However, having beta-tested two various 4:2:0 intermediaries, well....let's just say they aren't up to snuff yet. Lumiere does a good job, but Cineform (PC only) does a terrific remap of the 601 to 709 YUV issue, and more importantly, most apps will shortly support 701, eliminating the need for the remap.
Back to the point, as every pro DP I've met says..."It' ain't my 900, but I'm not to pleased with how close it is for the cost." And that's because the engineering was designed to work on the weaknesses of the eye, and not be technically perfect. They've achieved that in a very big way.
Moreover, you've also got to keep in mind that many people thinking that the Z1 is the same as a 900 have never worked with 4:2:2 uncompressed before, and don't know how wonderful it looks. So, it's a matter of experience as much as anything. But, the Z1 do make VERY pretty pictures.

Douglas Spotted Eagle
Author, producer, composer
www.vasst.com
"I enjoy music, long walks at sunset on the beach, and poking dead things with a sharp stick."

1 2

View All