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Home: Video University Forums: HDV:
Low Light usage for Z1

jeucu
Novice

May 28, 2007, 9:30 AM

Post #1 of 14 (3784 views)
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Low Light usage for Z1	Can't Post

I just got the z1 and do like it a lot; however, i'm not pleased w/it in low light. i did know about the situation of not being as good as a 170. i don't like to use gain due to the noise it causes and i don't like the idea of having only 3 settings to choose from when using the gain. in some instances 9 might be too much while 6 is not enough. i don't like having only 3 selections to choice from, h, m, l. can anyone suggest something different? should i use picture profile to set up added gain, etc.

BigDaddy C
Enthusiast

May 28, 2007, 10:34 AM

Post #2 of 14 (3774 views)
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Re: [jeucu] Low Light usage for Z1 [In reply to]	Can't Post

Set a profile with an AGC limit of 12

Then you can set your l to 0 your medium to 6 and your high to 9.

You now have 4 settings to choose from.... just turn on your Auto Gain when you need more than 9, and you can be sure that the highest it will go is 12.
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krskrewz
Enthusiast

May 30, 2007, 6:25 PM

Post #3 of 14 (3729 views)
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Re: [jeucu] Low Light usage for Z1 [In reply to]	Can't Post

If it's an option for you than you can also manually select your frame rate. For reception dance footage (when the lights are usually really dim or even off) i'll cut my frame rate in half to 30 and have found the results to look pretty good. For my projects, cutting the frame rate looks much better than trying to fix the picture in post.

fr0gm@n
Veteran

Jun 1, 2007, 7:42 PM

Post #4 of 14 (3693 views)
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Re: [jeucu] Low Light usage for Z1 [In reply to]	Can't Post

All good advice you got from others. I have different advice that I have mentioned here before. Get a light! Cool

You don't need a big one but get a light with a diffuser on it and don't be afraid to use it for dances and low lit stuff at the reception. I have been using a light for a few years for receptions and that was in SD land. Now in HDV we still use the light. It really helps. As long as you don't have a 500W flood light and are careful not to shine it in guests face no one really complains. When people start seeing the footage in HD with your small light they will be glad you had it.

I have said multiple times around here that if you are a reception shooter that swears you will never use a light then you should stay with SD. HD just needs it for the time being. For dancing I don't like using the 30fps but will use it for toasts since there is relatively little movement during toasts. For dancing I will go to 6db Gain and use the light. Footage looks pretty good on my A1.

Why does a gorilla have big nostrils.......cause it has big fingers.

frog blog

BigDaddy C
Enthusiast

Jun 1, 2007, 8:52 PM

Post #5 of 14 (3687 views)
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Re: [fr0gm@n] Low Light usage for Z1 [In reply to]	Can't Post

I agree 100% with Frogman. Read the crowd. More often than not you'll find that a light will not bother people.
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Know zat vee are zee v in VU.

Palin for VP.

daveVHVIDEO.COM
Novice

Feb 3, 2008, 11:03 PM

Post #6 of 14 (2637 views)
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Re: [BigDaddy C] Low Light usage for Z1 [In reply to]	Can't Post

Z1 and FX1 works great in low light simple adjustments will help your footage.
Of course add light any time you can. (and not just straight on move the light around)

1- iris set at 1.6 (zoom out to achieve this setting)
2- gain set to 12db max
3- white balance your picture now
4- lower shutter speed I have gone down to 4 for different effects 15 for more useable footage

David Hohenthaner
VHVIDEO.COM
2 of 5

MLiebergot
Veteran

Feb 11, 2008, 9:38 AM

Post #7 of 14 (2513 views)
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Re: [jeucu] Low Light usage for Z1 [In reply to]	Can't Post

I have to agree with Froggy also, get a light.

there is nothing wrong with using a light at a reception to get great looking footage. Photo and video need light to process.

Photographers use lights all of the time, but they are in the form of a quick flash. So what's to keep us from using some additional lighting as well. Either by placing one large light by DJ , like Mark Von Lanken uses, to get a nice light distribution on the floor. Or use an onboard camera light that is dimmable and diffusable.

I use onbaord lighting on my mobile camera Sony LVB-HBP LED light (love it) and lighting on stationary camera (NRG Varalux) to add some additional lighting for the floor and 2nd camera. of course this is only for receptions and not ceremonies. My onboard light is offset mounted on the left grip of my DVMulti Rig and not dead center on the camera, or I set it further back mounted on my handle.

Have had a few people squint, but never a complaint. I don't stay in one spot shooting for long stretches at a time, in order to give everyone their space.

Michael

Cameras: I do use them.
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KevinShaw
Veteran

Feb 27, 2008, 4:05 PM

Post #8 of 14 (2332 views)
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Re: [jeucu] Low Light usage for Z1 [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

i don't like the idea of having only 3 settings to choose from when using the gain. in some instances 9 might be too much while 6 is not enough.

If you need to be able to fine-tune that much, set the gain to 6db and let either the shutter or aperture adjust automatically to get the exposure you want. Also experiment with adjusting the YUV curve in post to boost shadow detail: there's more there with these cameras than is visible on unmodified footage.

Scott S
Veteran

Mar 1, 2008, 8:31 AM

Post #9 of 14 (2280 views)
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Re: [jeucu] Low Light usage for Z1 [In reply to]	Can't Post

Not sure how much you've actually used your cam yet but I don't believe you can see gain noise in the Z1 and FX1 until you get to 18db,,,meaning 15db is as clean as 0db... If you're seeing different I'd like to see full res HDV screen shots.. I've been using these cams for more than 2 years now in some incredibly dark situations and 15dbhas been great.. If you're going to deliver on SD DVD, 18db of gain should be fines as well as the grain structure from adding that much gain is typically to small to survive the downconvert..

And yes, get a light if you don't have one... :)

Scott

David L
User

Mar 1, 2008, 3:06 PM

Post #10 of 14 (2259 views)
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Re: [Scott S] Low Light usage for Z1 [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

I agree with Scott ... even at 18 db, the grain is pretty mild and unless the client is a broadcast TV executive, they probably won't care. If it comes to a choice between spoiling the moment with a light, or capturing the moment with a little grain, I will always choose the latter.

Don't fear the grain.

people9300
User

Mar 2, 2008, 10:15 AM

Post #11 of 14 (2222 views)
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Re: [daveVHVIDEO.COM] Low Light usage for Z1 [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

hey dave,

in your experience with z1 and fx1, are they essentially the same cam except for audio? also in a really dark ceremony (like jewish candle lit) and you cant use light, how do you shoot something like taht on z1

Adam Forgione
International Award Winning Wedding Films
Pennylane Productions
http://www.pennylaneprod.com

jplayer
User

Mar 9, 2008, 11:11 PM

Post #12 of 14 (2116 views)
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Re: [people9300] Low Light usage for Z1 [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hey guys..
We have gotten some FX1's a Z1u and also a Canon XHA1 recently...

Myself and a local videographer bud(Bill Grant) performed some test over the weekend and we were astonished at the gain settings on the z1.

I didn't want any picture profile disrupting our test so we turned those off and hooked the A1 and the z1u up to my big screen plasma.
We were astonished that the z1 literally had a very clean and useable picture with VERY minor creepy crawlys all the way to 18DB. The picture was still sharp and colorful even at 18DB...
What was even more strange was that I started to see some distortion to the picture on the LCD of the z1u at 15db even though it was fairly minor... BUT.. on the TV it was nowhere near the amount of gain crawl like what I was seeing on the LCD at 18db???? If I went by the LCD alone I would say that 18DB is a 60% useable setting but going off of the what came across on the big screen I would say its 98% useable.

Bill and I both agreed that the z1 was completely useable all the way to 18db.. This is connected to a high quality 1080i set also..

Has anyone else experience anything like this???
Do you use 18db on your cameras and not think twice about it??

In comparison to the A1 the z1 was dimmer at 0db.. In fact you had to kick the gain about to 9db or so to match the brightness of the A1 at 0db..
BUT.. When you kicked in the gain on the A1 even with some tweaked picture profiles the picture suffered in a relitvely bad way. The A1 had pretty bad detail loss in the scene and grain induced haze that covered the entire image... The colors also washed fairly quickly. The A1 at 12db was teeter tottering on the usefulness of the footage meter where as at 18db on the sony it still looked sharp as a tack...
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David L
User

Mar 10, 2008, 10:46 AM

Post #13 of 14 (2086 views)
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Re: [jplayer] Low Light usage for Z1 [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

Has anyone else experience anything like this???
Do you use 18db on your cameras and not think twice about it??

Yes. And I wouldn't say I don't think twice about it -- I try if possible to keep it at 12 db or less -- but 18 db on the FX1 doesn't bother me nearly as much as, say, 18db on my PD170 did ...

KevinShaw
Veteran

Mar 11, 2008, 7:20 AM

Post #14 of 14 (2051 views)
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Re: [jplayer] Low Light usage for Z1 [In reply to]	Can't Post

Yes, the Canon HDV cameras are noticeably noisier than the FX1/Z1U, especially at factory default settings. I often run my FX1s up to 18db gain and even boost the images further in post if necessary, which shows some noise but not enough to be a problem for event videos.

That said, many people seem to be happy with the XH-A1 after experimenting with the camera settings...and as others have suggested, use a light. :-)