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Home: Video University Forums: HDV:
Mainstream WMV-HD

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krskrewz
Enthusiast

Oct 31, 2006, 1:38 PM

Post #1 of 26 (4257 views)
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Mainstream WMV-HD	Can't Post

WMV-HD files just got a little easier to view on your high definition television sets. Instead of going the route of setting up a media center pc with your tv or using the avel link player, the Xbox 360 has just received an update patch today (10/31/06) to now support playback of wmv-hd files via a connected usb hard drive or for files burned on cd or dvd! Woo hoo! The update patch also allowed for upconversion all the way up to 1080p for certain items.

cathya
User

Nov 7, 2006, 6:42 AM

Post #2 of 26 (4213 views)
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Re: [krskrewz] Mainstream WMV-HD [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi,

I was wondering if you are infact are producing any of your high definition with this WMV-HD codec? I went to the website of Window Media Video HD and downloaded some clips filmed and outputted with 720p and some 1080i and they look great. I was wondering how I can do some of these?
If you are what program are you using? I don't think my editing program can do it although it can capture, edit and output in HDV (BACK TO TAPE). Any ideas or info would be appreciated.

Thanks

Cathy

Colvin ADTR
Enthusiast

Nov 7, 2006, 10:59 AM

Post #3 of 26 (4204 views)
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Re: [cathya] Mainstream WMV-HD [In reply to]	Can't Post

Look around the microsoft site, there should be some white papers. Basically, you alter the settings in windows media encoder to your liking.

krskrewz
Enthusiast

Nov 7, 2006, 2:30 PM

Post #4 of 26 (4192 views)
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Re: [cathya] Mainstream WMV-HD [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Cathy. You probably have to download the WMV-HD codec to actually render your project files as WMV-HD. Here's a link to the codecs. It's actually a newer link because the link I went to re-directed me here.

http://www.microsoft.com/...encoder/default.mspx

Once you install the codecs, you can try a reboot/restart and when you go to your settings from within your video editing program for rendering in .wmv there should be some WMV-HD options. The results have been good for when I do 720p and it looks amazing on the Xbox 360. Good luck!

In Reply To

(This post was edited by krskrewz on Nov 8, 2006, 11:40 AM)

JC/DV
Veteran

Nov 7, 2006, 3:17 PM

Post #5 of 26 (4186 views)
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Re: [krskrewz] Mainstream WMV-HD [In reply to]	Can't Post

So is this WM9 Encoder from MS better than the WMV HD encoder in Vegas? And on the MS site, the authoring instructions are VERY complicated and have to do javascripting for menus and such... is this included in the MS Encoder??? Or do you just make the WMV file and it plays automatically on the Xbox 360?

Jerome
JC/DV Productions - Website - Blog

Technology. It does wonders if you know how to use it.

krskrewz
Enthusiast

Nov 7, 2006, 4:27 PM

Post #6 of 26 (4181 views)
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Re: [JC/DV] Mainstream WMV-HD [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hey there Jerome. I'm not too familiar with Vegas so I don't know how the encoders compare. With my program, Media Pro, ot only has an encoder for hd when you render out to mpeg. With the microsoft encoder installed, it is accessible from within Media Pro and lets me render out to hd though wmv.

And yes right now I just put the wmv file on either a usb hard drive, cd, or dvd and play it through a nifty menu system built into the xbox 360. I've looked a little into authoring wmv-hd and yes I agree the instructions seemed to be wayyy too long and complicated so I scrapped the idea. I found a software program a few months back that makes authoring hd-wmv files onto dvd (for playback on the computer) much easier but it was around $10,000+ (yes six zeroes).

It was just announced that Microsoft will be rolling out a sort of iTunes engine on the Xbox 360 where you'll be able to download and rent videos and tv shows in high definition. The interface on the 360 is very very nice and all the pieces are really coming together for Microsoft while Sony is just working on trying to get out of the gates.

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JC/DV
Veteran

Nov 7, 2006, 4:53 PM

Post #7 of 26 (4177 views)
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Re: [krskrewz] Mainstream WMV-HD [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

I found a software program a few months back that makes authoring hd-wmv files onto dvd (for playback on the computer) much easier but it was around $10,000+ (yes six zeroes).

Yeah I saw that program too, I think it was Sonic Producer or something like that.

So, on a HDTV going through the XBox 360, does the HDWMV look close to that of HDV straight out of the camera?

In Vegas, I can output HDWMV up to 1080p at various bitrates and settings so I guess what I was using in Vegas will work. Here is one if you want to try it out and see how it looks through that setup... I'm curious, because I don't have an XBox nor HDTV yet (but I shoot it Crazy

)

www.jcdv.com/WMV/Drags_720_WMV.wmv (720p)
www.jcdv.com/WMV/jerrod_crissy_ct_HD.wmv (720p)

If you want to try a 1080, let me know and I'll encode one and upload tonight.

Jerome
JC/DV Productions - Website - Blog

Technology. It does wonders if you know how to use it.

krskrewz
Enthusiast

Nov 7, 2006, 8:30 PM

Post #8 of 26 (4161 views)
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Re: [JC/DV] Mainstream WMV-HD [In reply to]	Can't Post

Yup that's the one! Sonic Producer. I emailed the company about it and had a little back and forth in an email about their product. The guy was very friendly and pretty much told me to save my money and wait it out for hd-dvd/blu ray since it was right around the corner.

But yes on an HDTV going through the Xbox 360, the WMV-HD files look just as good as that coming out of the camera in HD. It's impressive and i'm very happy with how easy it is with the Xbox 360.

I'll download your 720p files when I get back tonight and put them on a portable hard drive for playback on the 360 in 720p and i'll let you know how your encoded version looks.

In Reply To

I found a software program a few months back that makes authoring hd-wmv files onto dvd (for playback on the computer) much easier but it was around $10,000+ (yes six zeroes).

)

www.jcdv.com/WMV/Drags_720_WMV.wmv (720p)
www.jcdv.com/WMV/jerrod_crissy_ct_HD.wmv (720p)

If you want to try a 1080, let me know and I'll encode one and upload tonight.

JC/DV
Veteran

Nov 7, 2006, 8:35 PM

Post #9 of 26 (4159 views)
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Re: [krskrewz] Mainstream WMV-HD [In reply to]	Can't Post

Thanks for checking it out... maybe I know what my next major purchases will be....

Jerome
JC/DV Productions - Website - Blog

Technology. It does wonders if you know how to use it.

krskrewz
Enthusiast

Nov 8, 2006, 3:08 AM

Post #10 of 26 (4150 views)
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Re: [JC/DV] Mainstream WMV-HD [In reply to]	Can't Post

I copied your clips onto my portable usb hard drive and played them through the Xbox 360. I used a native 720p projector displayed on a 110" Diagonal Screen and the picture is amazing! So yes, your files worked fine with no problem playing.

Your clips look sharp! Were those clips with the HC1?

In Reply To

Thanks for checking it out... maybe I know what my next major purchases will be....

JC/DV
Veteran

Nov 8, 2006, 9:05 AM

Post #11 of 26 (4142 views)
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Re: [krskrewz] Mainstream WMV-HD [In reply to]	Can't Post

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Thanks for checking it out... maybe I know what my next major purchases will be....

Awesome! That was on a 110" and looked that sharp, thats just awesome.

Yes all of that was from my HC1 cameras. Guess I now have a method for viable HD delivery. Thanks for checking this out on your setup. Now I gotta tell the wife its time for me to buy an XBox 360. I'm not a gamer and she won't understand. Wink

Oh, and I have to get a HDTV... it never ends.

Jerome
JC/DV Productions - Website - Blog

Technology. It does wonders if you know how to use it.

krskrewz
Enthusiast

Nov 8, 2006, 11:51 AM

Post #12 of 26 (4133 views)
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Re: [JC/DV] Mainstream WMV-HD [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hey Jerome. In addtion to the private message I sent back to you about getting the 360 with or without a hard drive... you won't need the 360 hard drive to display your hd footage because you can use a cd/dvd/portable usb hard drive but you might want the 360 hard drive for downloading hd video clips/movies/tv shows in the future if you wanted to. I've just been reading that a newer bigger hard drive for the 360 is in the works. The current detachable hard drive is 20gigs and the word out is that with Microsofts new video marketplace being rolled out November 22nd, the people are going to eventually need more space for more downloads.

In Reply To

Thanks for checking it out... maybe I know what my next major purchases will be....

Oh, and I have to get a HDTV... it never ends.

cathya
User

Nov 9, 2006, 12:31 AM

Post #13 of 26 (4118 views)
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Re: [krskrewz] Mainstream WMV-HD [In reply to]	Can't Post

Jeez.. I'm so jealous... You guys are able to do this. Apparently my program Liquid 6.1 has all the specs in Windows Media to do HDV at 1080i but when I spoke to the tech support he reckons it does not really do it and it will do it in standard def.

I think I'm going to have to pluck up enough courage to capture a bit of my HDV footage to my computer in HDV, edit in HDV and try and output in this WMV and see what happens. I'm just worried my computer won't cope!

Here are my computer specs>

Intel Pentium 4
3.6 gig
2 gigs ddr2 ram
400gig hard drive
160 gig hard drive
160 gig hard drive
geforce nvidia pci express 6600 GT Graphics card

Will it cope or will it crash? What will it do if it can't cope - it won't crash my hard drive will it?

Anyway this weekend I may give it a go!

Cathy

JC/DV
Veteran

Nov 9, 2006, 4:53 PM

Post #14 of 26 (4108 views)
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Re: [cathya] Mainstream WMV-HD [In reply to]	Can't Post

Cathy, your computer should be able to handle it... but I'm not sure how Avid works as far as resource requirements. It just may take some time rendering, but set it to do that when you go to bed that night. My P4 3.2 Ghz Dual Core renders about 3x the length of the clip with minor Fx added. So 1 hour video would take 3 hours to render-basically speaking. Plus most my drives (video data drives and system drives) are SATA which run better than the IDE drives did so that may help some too.

Jerome
JC/DV Productions - Website - Blog

Technology. It does wonders if you know how to use it.

renniedj
User

Nov 9, 2006, 11:18 PM

Post #15 of 26 (4097 views)
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Re: [cathya] Mainstream WMV-HD [In reply to]	Can't Post

I don't know if it will be any comfort to you, but version 7 of Liquid does create files which can be played on a 360 and in full 1080 resolution. They look amazing....

I don't know if version 6 does but HDV was an issue with version 6 because Sony changed things after the software was released. If you have the free updates to 6.5 though, these issues were fixed - but still not sure you can create WMVHD or Mpeg-4 HD files....

Thanks,

David Rennie

Trinity Wedding Video

cathya
User

Nov 10, 2006, 12:16 AM

Post #16 of 26 (4094 views)
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Re: [renniedj] Mainstream WMV-HD [In reply to]	Can't Post

Thanks for letting me know this. I did not know that there has been an update to Liquid 6 apart from the update to make it 6.1. I will have to investigate it all. The funny thing is that my Liquid 6.1 actually shows me that it can output Window Media Video to HDV 1080i etc but when I questioned the tech support guy he reckons that it does not work and it does not even work in 7. However, if you are doing it then it must work.

Can I ask are you just exporting in Liquid 7.1 with windows media video HDV 1080i? and then how are you getting it to play on your xbox. Can you just burn the file to DVD through nero or does this change the encoding and make it standard def? I was not sure if you had to use a special burning program for it to keep the file in HDV or is it just that it won't work on a standard DVD player and only work on a player (eg xbox) that can read the file?

Sorry for a million and one questions but I'm hanging to output some of what we do in HDV as it is such a let down seeing downcoverted SD once you have seen HDV.

I have been holding off on purchasing the upgrade to 7 as they reckon 8 is around the corner and this will have blue-ray etc but I'm not sure how long this is going to take - they told me December but you never know who to believe.

If you have time to let me know your computer specs etc that you are using with Liquid 7 and how long your render burn times are with approx 1 hour of HDV footage that would also be good. We will be upgrading shortly and I know Liquid likes to have certain computer specs/brands in order for it to work hassel free.

Thanks again

Cathy.

renniedj
User

Nov 10, 2006, 1:49 AM

Post #17 of 26 (4088 views)
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Re: [cathya] Mainstream WMV-HD [In reply to]	Can't Post

I will play around with it tomorrow and get the settings straight. I know I have done it before but it is not part of my normal workflow. Currently I am archieving on HDD and tape backups waiting to provide actual BluRay DVD's or HD-DVD's. Oh and it won't work in a normal DVD player, it will only work on a high powered PC or xbox 360. As for my system here ya go:

Dell XPS 400
Pentinum D 3.4 ghz Dual Core Processor
2 Gigs of Ram
120 Gig SATA system drive
320 Gig Raid 0 SATA video drive
ATI 1800 XT Pro PCIe X16 video card
ASIO complaint sound card (I forget the exact make/model)

As for render times, an hour of HDV footage back to tape renders in about 90 minutes. Burning the same hour to a SD DVD takes about 2 hours. I don't know anyone that seems to have better results. Edius is close, but I know some guys that use Edius and even though their system specs are close, Liquid still outputs faster (but I will add there edting process is faster as they have less rendering of effects, but Edius is like 5 times the cost of Liquid).

As for version 8, don't hold your breath. Who told you December? Avid or a reseller? I would be very suprised if we see an update this year. There is no doubt to me that the next version will have support for HD-DVD/BluRay and that one feature alone will delay the next version. HD-DVD burners aren't even available yet and Avid (unlike Pinnacle) will not include features for vaporware. Avid/Pinnacle got burned badly with version 6 by claiming to support the Sony fx1. The software was developed using early pre-production models of the fx1. After the software was final and software disks were being stamped out Sony made changes to the fx1. The result, Liquid did not work as advertised and Pinnacle scrambled to release 6.1 to patch the problem. A ton of users in the mean time were upset by what they perceived as a screw up by Pinnacle. Plus we have Windows Vista about to come upon us and that may affect a new version release as well. We are already seeing signs that Vista is getting closer with the release of Windows Media 11 (which I love BTW) and IE7

Unless you trust your source about a new version in December you may want to consider an upgrade to 7. There are more than enough changes to Liquid to make it worth it. For me the changes to the software save me 5-8 hours of editing per video. To me that is huge, and was well worth the $$ I paid for the upgrade. In addition to the time savings "little" things like the commotion filters, and Magic Bullet effects just to name two increased the creative capabilities of the program.

Thanks,

David Rennie

Trinity Wedding Video

cathya
User

Nov 10, 2006, 6:11 AM

Post #18 of 26 (4082 views)
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Re: [renniedj] Mainstream WMV-HD [In reply to]	Can't Post

Thanks for all that info. It was a reseller here in Australia that told me that he was last informed that it would be around December for 8 but I reckon they all talk crap.

Can I ask if you are doing workable 16:9 menus in Liquid 7.1. We have worked out a way to do them in 6.1 (as it does not support them) but in Australia the guy reckons the problem still has not been fixed but the American techs reckon 7.1 fixed the 16:9 menu problem. This is a big thing for me as the beauty about Liquid is you can do everything in the ONE program!

I think I will try and capture some footage over the weekend. I'm just scared if anything goes wrong as my computer guy is in Saudi at the moment and we have wedding this Friday and I can't afford any dramas. However, it doesn't matter when I do it as their always seem to be a wedding around the corner.

Thanks again

Cathy

krskrewz
Enthusiast

Nov 10, 2006, 3:09 PM

Post #19 of 26 (4062 views)
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Re: [cathya] Mainstream WMV-HD [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Cathy. When you do figure out the the details of your software I just wanted to note that you'd probably want to render the video files in 720p if you plan on displaying it on an Xbox 360. At least for now, the the 720p images look much better.
Once you have your wmv-hd file, you just burn it onto your dvd or even cd as a 'file' which I believe any burning program out there can do and the Xbox 360 will recognize it. The 360 has a built in and intuitive menu system (kind of like a tivo) where you can select the wmv-hd file to be viewed.

In Reply To

Can I ask are you just exporting in Liquid 7.1 with windows media video HDV 1080i? and then how are you getting it to play on your xbox. Can you just burn the file to DVD through nero or does this change the encoding and make it standard def? I was not sure if you had to use a special burning program for it to keep the file in HDV or is it just that it won't work on a standard DVD player and only work on a player (eg xbox) that can read the file?

(This post was edited by krskrewz on Nov 10, 2006, 3:09 PM)

renniedj
User

Nov 11, 2006, 5:20 PM

Post #20 of 26 (4034 views)
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Re: [cathya] Mainstream WMV-HD [In reply to]	Can't Post

Now I remember why this is not a regular part of my workflow....

First off using the 1080 settings produces less than acceptable results. As was suggested earlier you should use 720p. Second, it takes a LOOOONNNNGGGG time. For kicks and giggles I took 3 minutes of a current 1080i HD project. Sending it out to WMV took over an hour! I can export to tape in far, far far less time - geez. At 1080 the image quality was good, but not anywhere were as good as the source material. At 720p we were close, though playing back from tape still looked a tad better.

Because it takes so long, I would never make this part of my normal workflow never mind the fact that it would require your client to have a xbox 360 or other such playback device. BluRay burners are here, and HD-DVD burners are likely to be along soon. I am gonna just wait for them and for the Liquid update to allow me to burn such DVD's.

Thanks,

David Rennie

Trinity Wedding Video

cathya
User

Nov 12, 2006, 2:14 AM

Post #21 of 26 (4003 views)
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Re: [renniedj] Mainstream WMV-HD [In reply to]	Can't Post

Thanks for that info. I will have to give it ago. I think we will go for the upgrade to 7 and see what happens.

How do you go with your 16:9 menus in Liquid 7.1? Do they work correctly as 6.1 does not support them.

Cathy

renniedj
User

Nov 14, 2006, 12:57 AM

Post #22 of 26 (3959 views)
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Re: [cathya] Mainstream WMV-HD [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

How do you go with your 16:9 menus in Liquid 7.1? Do they work correctly as 6.1 does not support them.

Cathy

Thanks,

David Rennie

Trinity Wedding Video

cathya
User

Nov 14, 2006, 10:48 PM

Post #23 of 26 (3926 views)
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Re: [renniedj] Mainstream WMV-HD [In reply to]	Can't Post

I know that you will not use menus when you are exporting your HDV wedding video back to tape or making a WMV-HD. I was just meaning if you are downconverting your HDV footage to SD but still exporting SD in 16:9.

I was just wondering if you can create 16:9 menus correctly with the highlights working correctly with Avid Liquid 7 (7.1) as in my one 6.1 it does not support 16:9 menus and I have had to come up with a solution to fix the prob.

Thanks Cathy

renniedj
User

Nov 14, 2006, 11:06 PM

Post #24 of 26 (3923 views)
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Re: [cathya] Mainstream WMV-HD [In reply to]	Can't Post

For some reason my previous response did not save what I had typed - user error I am sure.

Anyhow, yes 16:9 menus look fine. The DVD menu editor is still 4:3 so when you are creating the menu is all looks squished, but when you exit the menu editor and more importantly when the DVD is created and played back on a 16:9 TV it looks correct.

Thanks,

David Rennie

Trinity Wedding Video

cathya
User

Nov 15, 2006, 4:01 AM

Post #25 of 26 (3916 views)
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Re: [renniedj] Mainstream WMV-HD [In reply to]	Can't Post

What happens if your timeline is 16:9 SD and you create a menu and watch your burnt movie on a 4:3 TV. Is all the highlighting out of place or does it play correctly eg: Black bars top and bottom.

I know that it will work on a 16:9 tv it's the 4:3 tv that I want to know about. As you can imagine lots of people (especially in Oz) still have 4:3 TVs.

Anyway if you know the answer let me know.
Thanks
CAthy

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