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Home: Video University Forums: HDV:
Making choices: HDR-F1X 16:9 DV mode compared to PD170

extremalis
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Jul 26, 2005, 9:54 AM

Post #1 of 14 (2618 views)
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Making choices: HDR-F1X 16:9 DV mode compared to PD170	Can't Post

Hi people,

really enjoy reading through all the insightful remarks by and learning from those skilled in their craft.
I am from PAL-land in the sunny side of Asia, and have been renting Sony PD-150/170 to practice my trade in providing for wedding videography services.

Built up my resources and now probably the next step is to acquire a camera to call my own. Considering between a F1X or a PD-170 now, and i probably need some comments from you people to make my decision. Moreover, the difference in price of a PD170 is very close to that of F1X, which is making my decision even harder.

1. I think I will likely use mostly the 16:9 DV mode of the F1X more often than HDV mode.
It is a norm to provide "Express Edit" services, where within 4 hours of break between the morning ceremony and the dinner reception at night, a video of the morning proceedings is shown during the dinner. I do not think i can afford extra bit of time to convert and render etc...

2. How is quality of F1X in 16:9 DV compared to PD-170? I know its not fair comparison, but i aim to use F1X shooting at native 16:9 as a marketing point for my business, as it is a crowded industry here. Many consumers are already using LCDTV or Plasma display in their homes.

3. Considering that F1X does not have XLR input, at times i do require to plug in wireless mic especially for church ceremonies, i may run into problems. Thats where the HDR-Z1U comes into the picture, but its about USD2K more than F1X, so i reckon i might be unwilling to pay for this difference.

4. Will i enjoy using the features of the F1X, or would i be better off buying PD-170 and getting anamorphic lenses to provide 16:9 video to my customers?

Editing System:
- Canopus Storm Pro 2, with Edius ver3
- P4 3.0GHz, 1.5GB Memory, 300GB Raid 0 HDD

Thanks
extremalis
~from sunny Singapore

KevinShaw
Veteran

Jul 28, 2005, 2:39 PM

Post #2 of 14 (2546 views)
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Re: [extremalis] Making choices: HDR-F1X 16:9 DV mode compared to PD170 [In reply to]	Can't Post

extremalis: this is a tough choice at the moment depending on exactly how you plan to shoot and market your videos, but my personal recommendation would be to seriously consider the HDV option. Consider the following answers to your questions.

(1) There's no reason to run an HDV camera in DV recording mode unless you have someone who needs to receive the master tape in DV format. You can record in HDV mode and have the camera downsample that directly to DV when you capture to your computer, so you could do an Express Edit using your current workflow and still refer back to the HDV source material when you have more time to deal with that.

(2) The FX1 takes great widescreen video because it has a true widescreen sensor. The main issue you should probably be concerned about in comparing an FX1 to a PD-170 is low light capability, which is arguably a toss-up depending on who you ask. If you shoot in a lot of dim venues you should arrange to rent or borrow an FX1 to assess its low-light capabilities for yourself before making a buying decision. I personally think the FX1 works fine in low light, but I gather some DV cameras are better in that regard.

(3) Buy a $200-300 XLR adapter for an FX1 and that solves that problem, plus the FX1 has the advantage that it can also handle mini-plug inputs when you don't need XLR. I didn't see any mini-plug input on the Z1U when I rented one recently.

(4) After using an FX1 I'd say forget about bothering with anamorphic adapters. Having a real widescreen camera with a widescreen LCD display is way better than trying to fuss with shooting anamorphic video, and when you factor in the anamorphic lens the PD-170 would probably cost more. Easy choice there.

Since you're already using Edius Pro 3 you have a great option for editing HDV footage in either native HDV format or the Canopus HQ codec. This would be cumbersome on your current single-processor computer, but it can be done. Or you might want to check out the Premiere Pro / Cineform bundle, which would probably run smoother on your current hardware.

kirklandvideo
User

Jul 30, 2005, 8:19 PM

Post #3 of 14 (2398 views)
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Re: [extremalis] Making choices: HDR-F1X 16:9 DV mode compared to PD170 [In reply to]	Can't Post

From personal experience the FX-1 will give a better widescreen result than my PD-170 in DV mode (as you'd expect because of the FX being native widescreen).

What I think a lot of people miss in the HDV vs DV debate is that the FX one is simply a better camera to use than the VX2000/PD-170.

Whether I'm shooting in HDV or DV I find that it's just plain easier to get a better result from the FX. For me at least, it's erganomically just right. My VX2000 and PD-170 just seem very clumsy to use by comparison.

Jeff Kirkland
video producer - podcaster - new media artist
--
Sony PD-170, Sony FX1, Vegas 7, Edius 3.6, Premiere Pro 2, Boris RED 4, Final Cut Pro 5.1
Web site: Southern Creative Media

(This post was edited by kirklandvideo on Jul 30, 2005, 8:22 PM)

extremalis
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Jul 30, 2005, 9:35 PM

Post #4 of 14 (2391 views)
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Re: [kwshaw1] Making choices: HDR-F1X 16:9 DV mode compared to PD170 [In reply to]	Can't Post

Thanks for the reply. Just a quick one to Kirkland, can i get the advantage of the camera in DV16:9? Besides having native widescreen, does the final picture appear pretty enough? I know its stupid not to simply record in HDV, but i do have considerations on other matters. So i thought my primary use of the camera will be DV16:9, and to record on HDV when i have more time for experimentation.

(1) I fancy using DV mode at this moment, because i want to use my cheap consumer DV camera as a deck during capturing. I don't think i can afford a HDV deck at this moment yet, and i am cautious to over use the main camera to preserve a longer life time. And sometimes, there are people who will request for the raw original too, with HDV formats, most of them will not be able to use it.

(2) In low light, i tried once with a Z1U, and it seems to get similar levels recorded in a low light condition, i had to up the gain to +12 dB while it was +6dB on a PD170. In the final video, i am not sure at this moment, whether it looks fine, since i haven't edited this clip. I suppose the engine of the F1X is pretty similar to Z1U.

(3) I saw the mini-jack on a F1X for external input. But bearing in mind that when the external mic is plugged in, the on camera mic is turned off. So i can only use one or the other, unlike the Z1U (which costs like 2-3K more). I am not familiar with audio equipments at all. My purpose is to be able to record the groom's vow via a wireless lapel mic on one channel, and the background sound on another channel, which i am currently doing with the PD170.

(4) At this stage, even if i shoot in HDV, i will still probably edit in DV at least for my "express highlights" since i cannot risk any major problems of not delivering on time. May consider on the platform on Canopus HQ codec since am happy user of the Canopus suite. Gotta study more into the Cineform option there.

Still saving up my cash in order to make that purchase. Possibly targetting for a September or October purchase this year. So meanwhile, keep those comments coming. I appreciate it!

Regards
extremalis

KevinShaw
Veteran

Jul 31, 2005, 12:52 AM

Post #5 of 14 (2380 views)
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Re: [extremalis] Making choices: HDR-F1X 16:9 DV mode compared to PD170 [In reply to]	Can't Post

Seriously, it just doesn't make any sense to buy an HDV camera and not use it in HDV mode: once you have one and see the footage you'll understand this. I've never heard of anyone wearing out a camera by using it as a playback deck, and if that really concerns you maybe you could buy the cheaper HC1 for playback. For quick edits you can output from the camera as widescreen DV and capture/edit that, then come back to the full resolution HDV footage later.

Regarding low-light issues, the Sony HDV cameras have much less noticeable noise in low light than comparably priced DV cameras, so you can boost the gain more and still get acceptable results. (Depending on how picky you are about what's acceptable.) They're not the best low-light cameras ever made, but they're fine for the price.

If you need two channels of audio, just buy an XLR adapter for the FX1 and use a shotgun/wireless combo on the two channels. Problem solved for $200 instead of $2000.

The Sony HDV cameras are fun to work with, but allow yourself some time to get to know one before you use it for a paid job. It's true that this is a camera where you need to learn how to use the manual controls for best results, especially in complex lighting environments (e.g. bright sunlight with deep shadows).

scotthayes
Veteran

Jul 31, 2005, 1:10 AM

Post #6 of 14 (2380 views)
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Re: [kwshaw1] Making choices: HDR-F1X 16:9 DV mode compared to PD170 [In reply to]	Can't Post

I just finished shooting my first wedding with the FX1. What a great camera!!! the only thing that bugs me is the lagging start up time between shots. It did great in low light, and the native 16:9 is awesome! I am planning on buying another sometime next year.

If your gear is paid for, KEEP IT!

Brian Coe
User

Jul 31, 2005, 3:19 PM

Post #7 of 14 (2320 views)
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Re: [extremalis] Making choices: HDR-F1X 16:9 DV mode compared to PD170 [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi
I agree with all here, go for Sony HDV over the PD170 anyday.

We film weddings with either PD150/170/250 or with Z1's when we need 16/9. If the Z1's are free we use them even for 4/3.

Last year we used DSR570 for the 16/9 weddings but dropped them in favor of the Z1. To me compared to the DSR570, the Z1 image is sharper and has more realistic color.

We now use the Z1 for all corporate work, film in HDV and edit in HDV or DV depending on end delivery.
For weddings we started filming in DV but are switching to HDV and downconverting in camera.

The low light sensibility of the Z1 is not a problem for weddings as generally we have on board 20w lights and , as pointed out above , the gain is relatively noiseless.

For me the question not HDV or PD170 it is
Z1 or FX1 + Beachtec.

Personally we went for the ZI as I don't like adding gadgets to the camera, there are already too many things hanging off the camera with lights , wireless receivers etc. Also in terms of ergonomy, the Z1 is easier to use with its assign buttons and Picture profile menu settings, I am not sure whether the FX1 has these. We use these a lot for weddings as we are always filming with 2 or 3 cameras and all cameras are set identically with different profiles for outdoor sunny, outdoor cloudy, indoor day, indoor mixed lighting, evening reception . In some of these profiles we use cinema gamma and also black stretch (not at the same time); I am not sure that these exist on the FX1.

On the assign buttons the ones we use most are AE overide, Outdoor White Balance shift + and -.

We went for the ZI , being pretty convinced that if we didn't we would regret it down the road. I am glad that we did.

Just my personal opinion for what it's worth.

Brian
Elite Video Mariage
Paris France
http://www.elitevideomariage.com

kirklandvideo
User

Aug 1, 2005, 7:47 AM

Post #8 of 14 (2282 views)
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Re: [extremalis] Making choices: HDR-F1X 16:9 DV mode compared to PD170 [In reply to]	Can't Post

I use the FX-1 in DV mode as much as I do in HDV mode. As I mentioned earlier, I find the PD-170/VX2000 seem like toy cameras after using the FX1/Z1.

Audio is another issue. To use the FX1 in the manner extremalis wants to will require adding a small mixer and an extra microphone. I already had them for my VX2000 otherwise I'd probably have gone for the Z1 and the better audio options.

On the other hand, I'm sure that the many iriver fanatics here will tell you that there are always other cheaper options for recording the room sound.

The PD-170 s slightly better in low light. I think I read somewhere that the PD-170 is ISO 640 while the FX1 is ISO 320 but I'm not 100% sure if that's right...

It doesn't matter if you plan shoot in DV or HDV - in my opinion the FX1/Z1 are simply better designed cameras and a joy to use.

Jeff Kirkland
video producer - podcaster - new media artist
--
Sony PD-170, Sony FX1, Vegas 7, Edius 3.6, Premiere Pro 2, Boris RED 4, Final Cut Pro 5.1
Web site: Southern Creative Media

(This post was edited by kirklandvideo on Aug 1, 2005, 7:53 AM)

KevinShaw
Veteran

Aug 1, 2005, 12:42 PM

Post #9 of 14 (2249 views)
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Re: [kirklandvideo] Making choices: HDR-F1X 16:9 DV mode compared to PD170 [In reply to]	Can't Post

Jeff: any particular reason why you would run your HDV camera in DV mode when it's a simple matter to downsample from an HDV tape to DV out while capturing to the computer? My recent experience is that I can get noticeably better results from HDV source even when the final output is at SD resolution, and my wife commented on this when she was watching some mixed footage I shot recently.

kirklandvideo
User

Aug 1, 2005, 5:58 PM

Post #10 of 14 (2237 views)
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Re: [kwshaw1] Making choices: HDR-F1X 16:9 DV mode compared to PD170 [In reply to]	Can't Post

No reason other than wanting to see how it compared to HDV although in some cases I was specifically shooting 4:3 and couldn't be bothered cropping a widescreen image and and a few times I've been shooting for other people and handing over DV tapes at the end of the shoot.

I'll add here that you really do need to be shooting in HDV mode to make up for the camera's lesser low light capabilities...

Jeff Kirkland
video producer - podcaster - new media artist
--
Sony PD-170, Sony FX1, Vegas 7, Edius 3.6, Premiere Pro 2, Boris RED 4, Final Cut Pro 5.1
Web site: Southern Creative Media

extremalis
User

Aug 3, 2005, 6:33 AM

Post #11 of 14 (2186 views)
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Re: [kirklandvideo] Making choices: HDR-F1X 16:9 DV mode compared to PD170 [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi people,

thanks for all the wonderful comments, i appreciate it lots.
Probably going for a F1X, making it a September or October purchase.
Gotta check out the best rates i can get it locally, unless someone here can reccomend some other ways to get the best price in town (i live in Singapore by the way)

Probably going to start off shooting in DV mode, to get the hang of things first. I am not so worried about low light at this moment. Except for a few places, the rest where i film at, usually have quite adequate lighting. At worse, i had to do a gain of 3dB on a PD170.

Will slowly adapt to film in HDV as i get more familiar with the camera. Just that occasionally, i do get requests to return the DV tape at the end of the session, so this camera gives me the flexibility i guess.

Regards
extremalis

extremalis
User

Aug 15, 2005, 9:10 AM

Post #12 of 14 (1930 views)
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Re: [extremalis] Making choices: HDR-F1X 16:9 DV mode compared to PD170 [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi folks,

just to keep you updated. I guess i am convinced enough to give the FX1 a try.
Just paid a deposit for this baby, and guess i will learn more along the way. Will certainly
need more guidance from the wonderful folks here.

By the way, will it be safe to keep to Panasonic DV tapes for use? Sony DVM60ME
happened to be a little more expensive than its panasonic counterpart, so gathered
it might make a little economic sense, especially if i stick to the same tape. Any negative
remarks on this?

Cheers
extremalis

adtr
Veteran

Aug 15, 2005, 9:55 AM

Post #13 of 14 (1924 views)
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Re: [extremalis] Making choices: HDR-F1X 16:9 DV mode compared to PD170 [In reply to]	Can't Post

I would rather set my ars* on fire than use panny tapes. I have used the cheapest sony tapes without a drop out since February. The reason I had to buy a Sony was that panny tapes knackered 2 cameras on the same shoot!

Colvin Eccleston
manchesterweddingstudio.co.uk

Ranko
User

Aug 17, 2005, 5:12 AM

Post #14 of 14 (1847 views)
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Re: [extremalis] Making choices: HDR-F1X 16:9 DV mode compared to PD170 [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hey extremalis,

Do you think I could try out your FX1 when we next meet? Wink

anyway...I started off with TDK tapes..but is now using sony.
I usually get my tapes for 3 in a pack or 5 in a pack. Either at Best or Sim lim.