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Home: Video University Forums: HDV:
Shooting HDV / DV differences

Axis
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Apr 11, 2005, 1:42 PM

Post #1 of 17 (2993 views)
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Shooting HDV / DV differences	Can't Post

Is shooting with a HDV Cam different from a DV? or do you need to be more carefull in movements like when shooting in 24p mode?

Thanks

Bob Hudson
User

Apr 11, 2005, 3:05 PM

Post #2 of 17 (2982 views)
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Re: [Axis] Shooting HDV / DV differences [In reply to]	Can't Post

You should shoot more "film like" as you do with 24P. Very fast pans, for instance, can cause artifacts with HDV.

adtr
Veteran

Apr 11, 2005, 3:09 PM

Post #3 of 17 (2982 views)
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Re: [Axis] Shooting HDV / DV differences [In reply to]	Can't Post

I don't think others can answer for you, you need to go and have a play with 1 and see if it suits you. I know I have to be a bit more deliberate than I was with DV. That might be that I had a bad style, that the camera struggles with so many pixels, that the lcd isn't upto par, that the HDV format is flawed. What matters is that I can end up with a shot I couldn't get anywhere else for the price.

Colvin Eccleston
manchesterweddingstudio.co.uk

DVman
User

Apr 11, 2005, 5:18 PM

Post #4 of 17 (2971 views)
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Re: [Bob Hudson] Shooting HDV / DV differences [In reply to]	Can't Post

Bob,

I don't know if that is quite true. I once read something related about the fast pans from Douglas Spotted Eagle and he was saying that it was not really an issue.

I have actually put the camera to a severe test doing ridiculous switch pans and have not seen any, repeat absolutely any artifacts. They may happen but I dont think they are that common as people would assume.

In Reply To

You should shoot more "film like" as you do with 24P. Very fast pans, for instance, can cause artifacts with HDV.

Bob Hudson
User

Apr 11, 2005, 10:29 PM

Post #5 of 17 (2950 views)
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Re: [DVman] Shooting HDV / DV differences [In reply to]	Can't Post

I have seen two reports from people whol said swish pans did cause artifacting: I suppose it's one of those thing where, if you do it, also do it at a slower speed just in case.

szerangue
Veteran

Apr 11, 2005, 11:03 PM

Post #6 of 17 (2948 views)
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Re: [Bob Hudson] Shooting HDV / DV differences [In reply to]	Can't Post

I agree, I pan at a slower pace than I did with the VX2100. I too have not experienced any artifact problems but then again, I am not panning rapidly,, not sure why you would but I assume there could be that need. Bob, you should try to get your hands on a Z1 and test it out yourself. It might help you to better understand the equipment when you are doing your consulting work for your clients. Therefore giving them the right information needed to make good decisions when it comes to HDV.
Miracle Pictures
"If it's a good picture, it's a Miracle!"

"Life Productions, coming out of the dark, into the light"
4EVER GROUP AFFILIATE

DSE
Veteran

Apr 12, 2005, 4:36 PM

Post #7 of 17 (2919 views)
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Re: [szerangue] Shooting HDV / DV differences [In reply to]	Can't Post

I'd say that swish pans aren't an issue if you're used to dealing with film or 24p cams. It IS an issue if you don't know how to manage those formats.
We recently shot a fairly major motoX event that had all sorts of pans, no issues. But...I'm used to dealing with that sort of thing. John Cline recently shot a NASCAR event for a network, same deal. On the other hand, I've seen messes come out of HDV from fast panning. Shoot like you'd shoot 35mm, you'll be great. Keep those shutter speeds high, you'll be fine.

Douglas Spotted Eagle
Author, producer, composer
www.vasst.com
"I enjoy music, long walks at sunset on the beach, and poking dead things with a sharp stick."

Bob Hudson
User

Apr 16, 2005, 12:43 AM

Post #8 of 17 (2846 views)
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Re: [DSE] Shooting HDV / DV differences [In reply to]	Can't Post

I am starting to see more and more reports of problems during pans, and not always real fast ones. Again, it's the kind of thing you do need to think about when shooting. Here's one just posted today: http://www.creativecow.net/...9247&forumid=162

DVman
User

Apr 16, 2005, 12:09 PM

Post #9 of 17 (2818 views)
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Re: [Bob Hudson] Shooting HDV / DV differences [In reply to]	Can't Post

Obviously the person who posted that, is a beginner. You don't have more depth of field to have the background out of focus. It is the opposite. Who knows what else he did to screw up his shot. These people don't know much and they are using an advanced tool w/o much knowledge or experience.

Read what Alan Barker says in the section: The Dark Side of the DV Revolution. It is towards the bottom of the index in the RANTS part: www.alanbarker.com There is also plenty of useful info if you happen to own a PD150/PD170 but the most important is that DV Revolution article.

<<... but that moving shot with a detailed background really was a wake up. It would certainly be nice to have more depth of field to have a lot of the background less in focus so the motion doesn't show up. >>

In Reply To

(This post was edited by DVman on Apr 16, 2005, 12:11 PM)

Bob Hudson
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Apr 16, 2005, 12:54 PM

Post #10 of 17 (2813 views)
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Re: [DVman] Shooting HDV / DV differences [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

Obviously the person who posted that, is a beginner. You don't have more depth of field to have the background out of focus.

That was a typo as he acknowledges in a later post in that thread. He is anything but an amateur: http://www.volcanovideo.com/ - check it out - even National Geographic uses his stuff.

DVman
User

Apr 16, 2005, 1:04 PM

Post #11 of 17 (2812 views)
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Re: [Bob Hudson] Shooting HDV / DV differences [In reply to]	Can't Post

I doubt it was a typo. And National Geographic has used amateur footage in the past. In any case, is there a reason why in your postings you seem to be bias against the HDV format. You don't openly say it but we all can read between the lines. HDV is here to stay and it is definitely a viable format. It is a much popular format than what you may think as it is getting quite popular with TV stations, believe it or not.

In Reply To

Obviously the person who posted that, is a beginner. You don't have more depth of field to have the background out of focus.

That was a typo as he acknowledges in a later post in that thread. He is anything but an amateur: http://www.volcanovideo.com/ - check it out - even National Geographic uses his stuff.

(This post was edited by DVman on Apr 16, 2005, 1:08 PM)

Bob Hudson
User

Apr 16, 2005, 1:25 PM

Post #12 of 17 (2807 views)
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Re: [DVman] Shooting HDV / DV differences [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

I doubt it was a typo. And National Geographic has used amateur footage in the past.

Since you are too stubborn apparently to actually go read those links, let's quote from their site:

SELECTED LIST OF PROGRAMS THAT HAVE USED OUR FOOTAGE

FEATURE FILM

Volcano, 20th Century Fox

DOCUMENTARIES AIRED IN THE U.S.

Volcano, National Geographic Television, NBC
Forces of Nature, Andrew Solt Productions, CBS
Into the Death Zone, Parallax Films, Discovery Channel
Eye of the Storm, Granada TV
Worlds Most Dangerous Volcanoes, Nash Entertainment, ABC
Raging Planet, Pioneer Productions, Discovery Channel
Oceans in Motion, National Geographic Television
Forces of the Wild, Partridge Films, PBS and BBC
If We Had No Moon, York Films of England, Discovery Channel
Girl Meets Hawaii, Pine Ridge Film & Television, Travel Channel
Hawaii Revealed, Pine Ridge TV, Travel Channel
Anatomy of a Disaster, GRB Entertainment, Learning Channel
Savage Earth, Granada TV, PBS
Amazing Earth, Fulcrum Productions, Discovery Channel
Volcano Alert, TCD Productions, Discovery
Understanding Caves, Cronkite Ward, Discovery
Understanding Pyramids, Cronkite Ward, Discovery
Guinness World Records, LMNO Productions, FOX
I Survived, Morningstar Entertainment, Discovery Channel
Escape from Paradise, BBC Productions, Discovery Channel and BBC
Untamed Earth, Andrew Solt Productions, Learning Channel
SeaTek, GRB/Adrenaline Productions, The Learning Channel
Natures Rage, Pangolin Pictures, Readers Digest TV
Doomsday Plan, Termite Art Productions, Discovery Channel?
Volcano: Ring of Fire, TWI Productions N.Y., Discovery Channel?

CHILDREN'S SHOWS

Volcanoes: Bill Nye the Science Guy, KCTS TV, PBS
JASON Project, Media Arts Inc., live satellite broadcast
The Hunt for Amazing Treasures, Andrew Solt Productions, The Learning Channel
Wishbone: Journey to the Center of the Earth, Big Feats Entertainment, PBS
Amazing Planet: Explosive Earth, National Geographic Childrens Television, Pilot
Interactive NOVA: Earth, WGBH, Educational Video

DOCUMENTARIES AIRED IN OTHER COUNTRIES

Fire and Ice, BBC Natural History Unit/Films at 59, BBC
Triumph of Life, Green Umbrella, BBC
History Happened Here, Cinenova, Canada
Storm Warning, Great North International, Canada
Burke's Backyard, CTC Productions, Australia
ETV Volcano Specials: Hawaii Island and Loihi, NHK Television Japan
Aloha!, ACCY Coordination Service, TV Tokyo, Japan
Stewardess Cop, EXCOR Inc., Japan
Humans: Who Are We?, Survival Pictures/ Cinenova, Canada/Discovery Channel
Gene Hunters, Cineflix, Canada
Asteroid, TCD Productions, Canada
The Coming Disasters: Volcanoes, TCD Productions, Canada
Survivants de l`Apocalypse, Vent d'Est Films, Quebec
UltraScience, Beyond Productions, Discovery Channel Australia
60 Minutes Australia, Nine Network Australia

TELEVISION ADVERTISING

State Farm ad, DDB Chicago Inc.
Fiat Punto ad, D'Arcy, UK
Rubin Postaer & Associates, CA
Video game ad, Towne, Silverstein, and Rotter, NY
Starr, Seigel, McCombs, HI

MUSEUM EXHIBITS

Volcanoes Exhibit, Melbourne Museum Victoria, Australia
Greenland Museum, G.E.U.S
X-treme Science! Exhibit, Bishop Museum, Hawaii
Plate Tectonics, Smithsonian Museum of Natural History, Hillman and Carr
Hall of Planet Earth: Hawaii Video, American Museum of Natural History
Hawaiian Honey Creeper Exhibit, National Zoo Washington D.C., Kurtis Productions
Mineral Hall Video, Denver Museum of Natural History
Hall of Life Video, Denver Museum of Natural History
Volcano Display Video, Auckland Museum, New Zealand
IBM/Planetrider Walt Disney World Epcot Center, Clarity Station
Origin of the Hawaiian Islands, Lyman Museum, Hilo, Hawai`i

SHOWS THAT WE HAVE BEEN FEATURED ON

Forces of the Wild, Episode 5, NATURE, PBS, Partridge Films
(Features John, this was really cool cause it was narrated by James Earl Jones)
Into the Death Zone, Discovery Channel, Parallax Films
(shows how Ken and Cheryl use close up footage to study lava flows)
Suicide Missions, History Channel (Due out May 31 2001)
(Ken takes his volcanology class out to the lava flows, no he doesn't kill them)
How'd They Do That?, Learning Channel
(follows Ken and Cheryl filming lava, actually a nice show about us)
Extreme Hawai`i, Discovery Channel
(Ken tells them how dangerous everything is)
Girl Meets Hawai`i, Travel Channel, Pine Ridge Studios
(Jenda and Cheryl accompany the host to the lava flows and scare her silly)
Hawai`i Revealed, Travel Channel, Pine Ridge Studios
(Ken and Jenda reveal the fact that Hawai'i has an active volcano)
Split Screen, Independent Filmmakers Channel (Jenda & Ken)
NBC Today Show
(John is interviewed when the show was in Honolulu in the early 90's)
Prime Time Live, ABC
(Sam Donaldson did a nice 5 minute piece following John in the field)

And no, I have no prejudice against HDV: but I am concerned if people with perfectly good SD camcorders get caught up in the hype and think they need to rush out and spend money on HDV so they don't somehow get left behind. I also believe that for the money, we will - before HD distribution becomes practical - get something better than what Sony offers. This is pioneering technology and the verdict is not yet in as to whether it will be a short-lived stepping stone or have some durability. My educated guess is that HDV will become the Hi-8 of HD: something for wedding videos going straight to DVD, while anything beyond that, especially that has to withstand the transcoding of the broadcast/cable/satellite program chain, will be done with slight more expensive camcorders using higher bitrates so that they do have have enough compression power to avoid going noticeably soft on pans or during other tough-to-compress situations.

DVman
User

Apr 16, 2005, 2:20 PM

Post #13 of 17 (2799 views)
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Re: [Bob Hudson] Shooting HDV / DV differences [In reply to]	Can't Post

In all your postings you seem to attack the format. Have you ever shot with a HDV camera or produced a program with one? Reminds me when DV first came along. People afraid of the format making dire predictions and in the end, they were all wrong. You have to get your hands on a Z-1 camcorder, shoot something and edit it before making any "educated guesses" .

In Reply To

I doubt it was a typo. And National Geographic has used amateur footage in the past.

And no, I have no prejudice against HDV: but I am concerned if people with perfectly good SD camcorders get caught up in the hype and think they need to rush out and spend money on HDV so they don't somehow get left behind. I also believe that for the money, we will - before HD distribution becomes practical - get something better than what Sony offers. This is pioneering technology and the verdict is not yet in as to whether it will be a short-lived stepping stone or have some durability. My educated guess is that HDV will become the Hi-8 of HD: something for wedding videos going straight to DVD, while anything beyond that, especially that has to withstand the transcoding of the broadcast/cable/satellite program chain, will be done with slight more expensive camcorders using higher bitrates so that they do have have enough compression power to avoid going noticeably soft on pans or during other tough-to-compress situations.

(This post was edited by DVman on Apr 16, 2005, 2:28 PM)

Bob Hudson
User

Apr 16, 2005, 2:33 PM

Post #14 of 17 (2792 views)
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Re: [DVman] Shooting HDV / DV differences [In reply to]	Can't Post

I owned one of the first DV camcorders (a $3,000 Sony VX700) and recommended them to my consulting clients almost as soon as they hit the market. But if 90% of households had no way to play the DV camcorders output (as is the case with HD), then my recommendation would have been to wait, unless you have some spare money.

At this point as we wait to see the reaility of what JVC and Pioneer will unveil at NAB, it would foolish for a serious shooter to go out and buy a Sony HDV this week. If you just want something for home movies you can watch on your HDTV, go buy it now. But for professional use, it's too early for those on a budget to risk.

DVman
User

Apr 16, 2005, 2:41 PM

Post #15 of 17 (2791 views)
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Re: [Bob Hudson] Shooting HDV / DV differences [In reply to]	Can't Post

Well, call foolish the thousands of professionals who are indeed buying the Sony HDV camcorders. Also, didn't you see the clip where Jody Eldred, award winning veteran cameraman, acknowledged that professional cameramen shooting with F900 cameras were all buying the Z1 cameras. He was not lying.

I will get you a list soon of the many TV stations around the country embracing the HDV format. You will be surprised.

In Reply To

(This post was edited by DVman on Apr 16, 2005, 2:48 PM)

StudioAdam
Enthusiast

May 9, 2005, 12:49 AM

Post #16 of 17 (2578 views)
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Re: [DVman] Shooting HDV / DV differences [In reply to]	Can't Post

How 'bout a budding wedding videographer ready to buy three cameras? Would you go with 3 FX-1's, go all PD-170 or a combo? I like the idea of having HD to do other projects, but could we shoot in HDV and give the client sometihng on DVD while using the newest technology Apple has to offer?

Adam

VU Minnesota Campus

Postal_Boy
Veteran

Jun 9, 2005, 1:45 PM

Post #17 of 17 (2219 views)
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Re: [StudioAdam] Shooting HDV / DV differences [In reply to]	Can't Post

Starting out from scratch, I'm not sure. If I were to buy three cameras right now, I would proably do a Z1 and 2 PD-170s, just because of budget. If you could afford all three as Z1s, then that would probably be good because of the wide-screen and HD capabilities. The Z1 CAN shoot good DV, and although I love my PD-170 I do wish I had true wide screen....the anamorphic adapter is looking better all the time :(

Postal
__________________________

PD-170, Dual athlon 2200+, 1gig ram,, Vegas, Combustion, Photoshop, dual monitor (ashamed of the video card, so I won't mention it), Samson wireless, and a couple of one-chippers (sony) just for the heck of it. - And an IRIVER