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Home: Video University Forums: HDV:
Talked to Sony direct concerning DVM63HD tapes

szerangue
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Apr 20, 2005, 3:33 PM

Post #1 of 14 (3232 views)
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Talked to Sony direct concerning DVM63HD tapes	Can't Post

I have been struggling trying to get an answer for quite some time on what tapes to use. After listening to numerous posts here and on WEVA, I was convinced that the ony reason to use the DVM63HD tapes were to lessen the likelihood of dropouts. I was also convinced that the quality of the recorded image would be the same no matter which tape you chose. These were the 2 most important factors I was considering. So armed with that information, I had decided to go with the Sony Premium minidv tapes since I shoot with at least 2 cameras and the chance of both dropping out at the same time was unlikely and my choice of tapes would not diminish the quality of the recording. I had heard about a supplier called Tape Resources and decided to give them a call and try to get a definitive answer from them. So I called, when I asked the girl, Anna, about the differences in the 2 tapes, she told agreed with me on the dropout issue but asked why I would use consumer type tape with such a high quality camera. She started telling me the quality of the recorded image would suffer using the lesser tape medium. Of course I told her that everything I had heard was just the opposite as far as quality goes and that now I was even more confused. I asked her how I could get in touch with a Sony rep to ask them about this issue. She gave me a number, I called and talked to a guy named Ed. He empatically told me in much more technical terms than I can reiterate that I should use the DVM63HD tapes, no question about it. Will I notice the difference in the quality? I don't know. Will my clients notice? I doubt it. Will I sleep better, I think I will. Will I have to up my price, YES. (about $100 per event)
Miracle Pictures
"If it's a good picture, it's a Miracle!"

"Life Productions, coming out of the dark, into the light"
4EVER GROUP AFFILIATE

Morris
Enthusiast

Apr 20, 2005, 6:46 PM

Post #2 of 14 (3223 views)
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Re: [szerangue] Talked to Sony direct concerning DVM63HD tapes [In reply to]	Can't Post

As long as tape errors are within the limits of the built-in error correction code, the video and audio quality will be identical no matter which type or brand of tape you use. That is just the nature of digital recordings, unlike analog which can have improved picture quality depending on the particular tape used.

Higher quality tape of course, can lessen tape errors to keep the errors within the error correction code.

AEMIKEA
User

Apr 20, 2005, 8:23 PM

Post #3 of 14 (3211 views)
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Re: [Morris] Talked to Sony direct concerning DVM63HD tapes [In reply to]	Can't Post

Yep, it is all 1's and 0's, no 1 or 0 is a better quality than nother, also if you read up on the HDV format it has built in redundancy to protect itself from dropouts, way better than DV.

Mike

Bob Hudson
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Apr 20, 2005, 9:12 PM

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Re: [AEMIKEA] Talked to Sony direct concerning DVM63HD tapes [In reply to]	Can't Post

One concern - and this is mostly speculation - is that because you are recording MPEG video, a small dropout will cause a bigger loss than it would with DV where every frame is a standalone "I" frame. The thought is that dropping an I-frame in MPEG could mess up the other 14 frames of a GOp and this cause the loss of half-a-second of video instead of just one frame.

My own experience in using DV tape since it came out is that dropouts are all but non-existent and I can't actually recall when I last saw one on DV.

I would suggest regular DV tape for DV projects, but just to CYA, use the HDV tape for HD shoots. If something does mess up you can then at least show the client the tape and say "I used the best...what can I say?"

AEMIKEA
User

Apr 20, 2005, 10:41 PM

Post #5 of 14 (3205 views)
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Re: [Bob Hudson] Talked to Sony direct concerning DVM63HD tapes [In reply to]	Can't Post

http://news.sel.sony.com/..._technology_book.pdf

see page five for a brief explanation.

Mike

Bob Hudson
User

Apr 20, 2005, 11:01 PM

Post #6 of 14 (3199 views)
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Re: [AEMIKEA] Talked to Sony direct concerning DVM63HD tapes [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

http://news.sel.sony.com/..._technology_book.pdf

see page five for a brief explanation.

Mike

Thanks Mike - on page 9 they also talk about the extra error for HDV recording. And interestingly, throughout that document they talk about how HDV uses "widely available" DV tapes.

Having looked at that document, I would now say that tape should not make a difference. I would say find one brand and stick with it; with any camcorder, head clogging problems seem to often be related to mixing brands (especially mixing Sony with other brands).

In checking around I find a lot of pros saying they use nothing but $3 Panasonics in theit HDV camcorders have have not seen a dropout yet.

szerangue
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Apr 20, 2005, 11:46 PM

Post #7 of 14 (3197 views)
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Re: [Bob Hudson] Talked to Sony direct concerning DVM63HD tapes [In reply to]	Can't Post

I wish I could feel comfortable using the minidv tapes. I could save a ton of money. But I just do not feel comfortable going in that direction after talking to tape resources and Sony. I found these tapes online for 12.45 each, a lot more than a 3.00 dvtape. I figure I will have to raise my prices $100 to cover the cost of the more expensive tapes. I would most likely be ok using the minidv tapes, but I would always worry about whether I was going have issues with the heads or quality issues on the recording. Both issues were brought up by the Sony Guy. I would love for one of you guys with more technical savvy to contact the guy I talked to and confirm his comments.
Miracle Pictures
"If it's a good picture, it's a Miracle!"

"Life Productions, coming out of the dark, into the light"
4EVER GROUP AFFILIATE

Bob Hudson
User

Apr 21, 2005, 12:41 AM

Post #8 of 14 (3189 views)
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Re: [szerangue] Talked to Sony direct concerning DVM63HD tapes [In reply to]	Can't Post

I've looked at this topic on a few other HDV forums and guys doing nothing but commercial work are using the same DV tapes they've been using for regular DV work.

I must say I really have not read any HDV dropout reports yet and in the above-referenced Sony PDF file the discussion of advanced error correction really does seem to counter many concerns that have been expressed (this is an official Sony document and not a salesman's hype):

5. Affordable DV tapes
HDV uses exactly the same cassette tapes that are already popular for DV recording. Even the
recording time is the same. In addition, the tape transport and head drum are identical to those
used in current DV recording systems.

Not only does HDV use the same cassette as DV, it also uses the same tape speed and the
same track pitch.

Error Correction
With the interframe compression of HDV, missing data has potentially bigger impact on picture
quality than with the DV standard. That's why HDV increases the amount of data devoted to error
correction redundancy. And while DV error correction operates within tracks only, HDV error
correction operates across multiple tracks at one time. In this way, HDV offers greatly improved
error correction and much higher tolerance for missing data.

HDV� standard. The videocassette format that is the subject of this handbook. HDV records
and plays back High Definition video and digital audio using widely-available DV tapes.

DVideography
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Apr 21, 2005, 4:24 AM

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szerangue
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Apr 21, 2005, 8:49 AM

Post #10 of 14 (3158 views)
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Re: [DVideography] Talked to Sony direct concerning DVM63HD tapes [In reply to]	Can't Post

Dave,
That is something I have been thinking about also, reusing these more expensive tapes to get my money's worth out of the. Having about 20 of them that I rotate out a couple of times. I have heard people say here, however, that they never use tapes more than once. I guess at 3.00 per tape that is a non-issue, but at 12.45, it becomes something think about. I don't suppose there would be any quality loss in reusing the tapes, but what about errors? Do you think we would experience more errors in reusing tapes?
In all the time I have spent on these forums, this has been the one issue that I just cannot seem to get a consensus.
Miracle Pictures
"If it's a good picture, it's a Miracle!"

"Life Productions, coming out of the dark, into the light"
4EVER GROUP AFFILIATE

Morris
Enthusiast

Apr 21, 2005, 3:29 PM

Post #11 of 14 (3136 views)
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Re: [szerangue] Talked to Sony direct concerning DVM63HD tapes [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

That is something I have been thinking about also, reusing these more expensive tapes to get my money's worth out of the. Having about 20 of them that I rotate out a couple of times. I have heard people say here, however, that they never use tapes more than once. I guess at 3.00 per tape that is a non-issue, but at 12.45, it becomes something think about. I don't suppose there would be any quality loss in reusing the tapes, but what about errors? Do you think we would experience more errors in reusing tapes?
In all the time I have spent on these forums, this has been the one issue that I just cannot seem to get a consensus.

Shane,
The way I look at reusing tapes is this:

For a tape to perform with zero or near zero dropouts, it must meet a specific quality standard. If reusing the tape 2-5 times more would cause an increase in dropouts, then the tape would be too marginal to meet the zero or near zero specifications to begin with. Common sense and logic say that the tapes HAVE TO HAVE A BUILT IN SAFETY ZONE OF USEAGE to meet zero or near zero dropouts on the first pass. My logic says that tapes have to be able to remain error free for at least 10 or more passes (more like 20 passes) to be able to be error free for the first pass with any degree of reliability in this respect

I also believe that age or the environment tapes are stored in have a much greater affect on tape deterioration than the number of passes does. I believe that if tapes are reused within 2 years of purchase, then age or environment has no impact under sensible storage conditions. If tapes are stored in an air tight container with a moisture absorbing material and in a temperature controlled environment then reusing even beyond 2 years should not be a problem.

So bottom line, my view is OK to re-use tapes up to 4 times within 2 years of purchase. Also, don't record SP over a LP tape and vice versa.

Morris

(This post was edited by Morris on Apr 21, 2005, 3:37 PM)

RichA
Novice

May 5, 2005, 10:09 PM

Post #12 of 14 (2967 views)
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Re: [Morris] Talked to Sony direct concerning DVM63HD tapes [In reply to]	Can't Post

I would like to offer this data on tape dropouts, after 2 seasons of sports shooting.
In each case I did not re-use the tape. In each season I used the same
camera, the JVC DV2000. This is not an HD camera, it is DV (digital) and
I am focusing on the tape quality question here.

First season, 2003-2004, I used Panasonic AY-DVM83PQ, an 83 min "For Professional" tape.
Of 30 tapes shot (generally about 60 min each),
3 of them have 1..5 second dropouts, with
total
sound loss and spotty or jerky video. I tape sports
events,
so it is extremely obvious when one misses a play!
A 4th tape exhibited a 60 second
dropout, and
then shortly later a 30 second dropout.
Not so nice!

Second season, 2004-2005, I used Maxell DVM60SE, a conventional
60 min tape. I used a camera tape head cleaner one time,
near the beginning of this season.
Of 33 tapes shot, I noticed only one 2 second dropout.
Same camera.
Quite a better record.

Thanks, Rich

szerangue
Veteran

May 7, 2005, 11:53 PM

Post #13 of 14 (2917 views)
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Re: [RichA] Talked to Sony direct concerning DVM63HD tapes [In reply to]	Can't Post

Not sure what you are trying to say since I do not use any of those tapes. Are you saying the more expensive "professional" tape performed worse?
Miracle Pictures
"If it's a good picture, it's a Miracle!"

"Life Productions, coming out of the dark, into the light"
4EVER GROUP AFFILIATE

RichA
Novice

May 8, 2005, 1:20 PM

Post #14 of 14 (2880 views)
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Re: [szerangue] Talked to Sony direct concerning DVM63HD tapes [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Shane. My info is meant to be general in nature, showing that differences do exist
between types of tape. Further I believe you need to shoot several 10s of tapes
to get an idea of their quality.
Thanks, Rich