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Home: Video University Forums: HDV:
The HDV vs SD debate

 

 


Bryan G
User


Jun 22, 2008, 5:11 PM

Post #1 of 21 (1872 views)
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The HDV vs SD debate Can't Post

 
A penny for your thoughts on this...... do you feel it is worth going to HDV (in a unit such as the Sony HVRZ1)? We are wanting to do mainly interviews to promote our small business. Even though I would find it hard to justify the HDV outlay, what may turn out to be worse is realising the whole world isn't interested in your material because it has gone HD - whether for practical reasons or affectatious ones - in which case you have to put your DVD on the 2nd hand market for peanuts. Obviously considering the intended applications will be important. In my case, I am really only interested (for now) in interview and conference-type (3 people dilaogue scenarios) situations. Yes, high quality so that people take me seriously (or are silly enough to want to buy my product or view clips on the web) but so called "broadcast" quality - whatever that means, is not necessary.

The need to have heaps more storage space/processing power is not lost on me for HD, although I could store much of the stuff on tape backup.

A great SD camera would be the Panasonic DVX100 (as low as $AUD3799 in Australia). The Z1 is about $6,500.

Thanks for your comments.

--------------------------------------
Many thanks for your help.....

BRYAN FROM DOWN-UNDER

There are precious few Einsteins
among us. Most brilliance arises
from ordinary people working
together in extraordinary ways
- Roger von Oech


Chuck_e7
Veteran


Jun 24, 2008, 5:19 PM

Post #2 of 21 (1805 views)
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Re: [Bryan G] The HDV vs SD debate [In reply to] Can't Post

Hello Bryan, I think it is what the market in your are is going to. We see lots of people buying HD tv's and even some buying Blu-Ray players. Whether or not they can tell the difference is irrelevant. It's the "Now" trend asnd people will ask even though they know nothing about the technology. We have been led to beleive that the latest thing is the best and many will not look back. For me as a Wedding/Event videographer, sometimes it makes the sale to say we cna even though they won't. My 2cents.







"600 yards out, I can still see you!"


sal
Enthusiast


Jun 28, 2008, 12:40 AM

Post #3 of 21 (1719 views)
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Re: [Bryan G] The HDV vs SD debate [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
The need to have heaps more storage space/processing power is not lost on me for HD, although I could store much of the stuff on tape backup.


you don't need more storage space or even processing power. renders will take a little longer but not a whole lot.

Keep in mind, you can shoot hdv and still deliver in SD. IMHO, the Quality you get out of hdv, is worth it - even when delivering in SD.


KevinShaw
Veteran

Aug 23, 2008, 7:53 AM

Post #4 of 21 (1288 views)
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Re: [Bryan G] The HDV vs SD debate [In reply to] Can't Post

If you're buying new cameras today it makes sense to consider models which shoot HD, and many can also shoot SD so then you have a choice depending on the project. For about the price of the DVX100 take a look at the Sony FX1 or V1U or the Canon XH-A1, or the new Panasonic HMC150.


Bryan G
User


Aug 25, 2008, 8:24 AM

Post #5 of 21 (1252 views)
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Re: [Chuck_e7] The HDV vs SD debate [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanx Chuck - your 2 cents is valuable.

By the way, I ended up buying the A1. Currently I am trying to use it. I can't even work out what the difference is between shooting in 25F or 50i (PAL - Australia)!! I shot a piano performance (totally private - not commercial) in 50i several week ago (in standard def only) and the result was brilliant - the image was very clear and natural looking. I then did another performance last week in 24F and the result was terrible - very grainy. Admittedly the lighting condirtions were different (same venue) but the frrst day was cloudy and not a lot of light was coming in from outside with all the lights turned on inside. The second performance was sunny outside and few lights were used inside. Maybe the light made that degree of difference - and I only had the cam set to "A" - but I was still surprised. Are you?

--------------------------------------
Many thanks for your help.....

BRYAN FROM DOWN-UNDER

There are precious few Einsteins
among us. Most brilliance arises
from ordinary people working
together in extraordinary ways
- Roger von Oech


Bryan G
User


Aug 25, 2008, 8:26 AM

Post #6 of 21 (1251 views)
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Re: [KevinShaw] The HDV vs SD debate [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks Kevin - that's the route I eventually took by getting a Canon A1 which I understand to be a superb. Have not heard a bad thing said about it yet.

--------------------------------------
Many thanks for your help.....

BRYAN FROM DOWN-UNDER

There are precious few Einsteins
among us. Most brilliance arises
from ordinary people working
together in extraordinary ways
- Roger von Oech


KevinShaw
Veteran

Aug 25, 2008, 10:29 AM

Post #7 of 21 (1246 views)
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In Reply To
I then did another performance last week in 24F and the result was terrible - very grainy....Maybe the light made that degree of difference - and I only had the cam set to "A" - but I was still surprised. Are you?



No, the Canon HDV cameras can be very grainy at default settings in auto mode, so much so it's surprising we don't hear more about this. The first thing you need to do is take camera gain off auto and limit that to +6 db or so, as anything above that may be objectionable. The next step is to learn how to adjust camera settings like "coring" and noise reduction, with some specific setting combinations detailed on the DVinfo forums. The XH-A1 apparently isn't a particularly good auto camera, and you'll need to spend some time learning how to get the most out of it using manual control.


Chuck_e7
Veteran


Aug 25, 2008, 10:52 AM

Post #8 of 21 (1242 views)
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Re: [Bryan G] The HDV vs SD debate [In reply to] Can't Post

Vdeography is not that much different from Photography. Cameras feed on light, and unless you are shooting for a "dark" effect, you need a fill-in flash or a small light. If you have backlight on the cam, be careful. I've shot some backlit subjects and used the feature, you can get "wash-out" real quick. The most descerning eyes (ours) can make out differences between SD and HD, but the bigger the screnn and the better the monitor, the better the difference. G'day...Laugh







"600 yards out, I can still see you!"


Bryan G
User


Aug 26, 2008, 1:27 AM

Post #9 of 21 (1210 views)
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Re: [KevinShaw] The HDV vs SD debate [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks Kevin - this was the bit I was dreading - having to move that dial around to "M"!! I suppose I was expecting the A1 to do marvels in Auto mode and admittedly this is the first time I have heard it may be deficient in the Auto department. However, because I was able to compare the footage of one take in cloudy weather outside with all the lights on inside, with a sunny day and all sorts of light streaming in and few lights on inside - I think teh poor result of the latter recording (compared to the former which was great even though also on auto mode) can be laid at a combination of Auto mode and poor lighting - with which you would probably agree?? By the, Philip (Frogman) had already kindly given me fair warning about the gain setting which concurs with yours and I did actually have that set to 6db for both recordings

--------------------------------------
Many thanks for your help.....

BRYAN FROM DOWN-UNDER

There are precious few Einsteins
among us. Most brilliance arises
from ordinary people working
together in extraordinary ways
- Roger von Oech


Bryan G
User


Aug 26, 2008, 1:31 AM

Post #10 of 21 (1210 views)
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Re: [Chuck_e7] The HDV vs SD debate [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes Chuck - it now looks like I will have to compiel an order of lighting equipment throuigh B&H Photo or similar - yes, I can buy this from them far cheaper and have it shipped to Australia than what I can get it for here.

Just a question - if you review the two lighting situations that I detailed in my earlier posts (exactly the same venue but with different lighting siuations) does it surprise you I got such a different result?? You have probably answered this but I just didn't knwo how to interpret it.

Also, how much of teh blame do you feel can be laid at the feet of 25F as opposed to 50i, if any???

--------------------------------------
Many thanks for your help.....

BRYAN FROM DOWN-UNDER

There are precious few Einsteins
among us. Most brilliance arises
from ordinary people working
together in extraordinary ways
- Roger von Oech


MLiebergot
Veteran


Aug 26, 2008, 10:00 AM

Post #11 of 21 (1195 views)
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Re: [Bryan G] The HDV vs SD debate [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Yes Chuck - it now looks like I will have to compiel an order of lighting equipment throuigh B&H Photo or similar - yes, I can buy this from them far cheaper and have it shipped to Australia than what I can get it for here.

Just a question - if you review the two lighting situations that I detailed in my earlier posts (exactly the same venue but with different lighting siuations) does it surprise you I got such a different result?? You have probably answered this but I just didn't knwo how to interpret it.

Bryan, while I would love it fi everyone hired a lighting designer to light a wedding reception. It just doesn't happen often for us. Guess we do low end weddings Wink.

But here's what I have started doing for all wedding shoots. We use onboard Sony HVL-LBP LED lights and love them, as they are dimmable and have very good throw and are self powered with long lasting Sony batterues (no battery belt needed). But I wasn't ahppy with always having to run onbaord lighting as it can be distracting for guests and teh overall image is flat.

So we have added additional off camera lighting to the mix. Now it's not what teh sterotype of videolighting rigs is, but rather is based on the Reception Light, which several people here use and seem to love.

I put together two Reception light setups myself at B&H Mike's Reception Light Kit.

I did however order two remote controls from Darrell, which help me save on battery run times, as I turn off the lights during dinner.

The reason that I built my own is that I already had one Varalux light and prefer using long lasting battery belts to wrap around the base of the light stand. This keeps the light stand very stable and also gives me battery run times of 5+ hours running 50w bulbs at full power.

The lights aren't powerful enough to overpower a DJ's setup, but it is enough to give a nice boost to the dance floor when needed. This can add some nice depth to the image as well as keep me from having to use on camera lighting if possible. The only thing that sucks is that the battery belts (I bring 2 large Bescor belts and a couple NRG batteries), which weigh around 50 lbs. Crazy We keep all of the batteries in a small rolling suitcase, and all other equiptment in a large rolling suitcase (Proroller 3 with cameras etc. and tripods strapped to the side) and an audio bag, which I place on top of the large rolling suitcase. Everything is rolled in.

These really came in handy a few weeks back , when I shot a wedding where the dancing took place in an outside tent. The tent only had 2 small rope lights on both ends of it and some votive candles on the fountain in the middle of the tent, and no DJ lights. If I didn't have the lights on stands, noone would have been able to see who they were dancing with. Of course we do have onbaord lights, but the overall feel to the tent was so much nicer with just the dance floor lit up.

Overall it only takes me 15 minutes to setup both lights, belts and all,a nd I can place them anywhere I wish. I like to palce them by the DJ or by a sateg (if a band is palying. This way people thnk that they are aprt of the music setup for the night. And I love the fact that I don't have to run any cables to worry about people tripping over.

I don't know if this is somethign that you woudl be interested in, but thought that I woudl mention it to you as an option.

Michael

Cameras: I do use them.
Audio: Yes, it does come with audio if you like.
Software: I am learning...
Support: I need all that i can get.
Computer: MAC BABY!


KevinShaw
Veteran

Aug 26, 2008, 10:11 AM

Post #12 of 21 (1193 views)
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In Reply To
However, because I was able to compare the footage of one take in cloudy weather outside with all the lights on inside, with a sunny day and all sorts of light streaming in and few lights on inside - I think teh poor result of the latter recording (compared to the former which was great even though also on auto mode) can be laid at a combination of Auto mode and poor lighting - with which you would probably agree??



Even a cloudy day outside is going to have a lot more light than dark corners indoors, hence why you're seeing more graininess in the indoor image. Since you already had the gain limited to 6db it sounds like you'll need to investigate the other camera settings mentioned earlier, and I recommend you go find the DVinfo preset suggestions for the XH-A1. At default camera settings the Canon HDV cameras can be undesirably grainy, so get some tips from experienced users who have learned how to mitigate this.


Bryan G
User


Aug 27, 2008, 5:08 PM

Post #13 of 21 (1173 views)
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Re: [KevinShaw] The HDV vs SD debate [In reply to] Can't Post

Michael, thanks so much for going to all this detail for me. I will certainly look into it as I have started a shopping list with B & H. Sounds like lighting is more critical for video than I thought - perhaps even more so so than for still photography. Bryan

--------------------------------------
Many thanks for your help.....

BRYAN FROM DOWN-UNDER

There are precious few Einsteins
among us. Most brilliance arises
from ordinary people working
together in extraordinary ways
- Roger von Oech


Bryan G
User


Aug 27, 2008, 5:10 PM

Post #14 of 21 (1173 views)
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Re: [KevinShaw] The HDV vs SD debate [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks Kevin - will do. So much for the genie I thought lived inside the A1!

--------------------------------------
Many thanks for your help.....

BRYAN FROM DOWN-UNDER

There are precious few Einsteins
among us. Most brilliance arises
from ordinary people working
together in extraordinary ways
- Roger von Oech


KevinShaw
Veteran

Aug 27, 2008, 5:23 PM

Post #15 of 21 (1168 views)
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Re: [Bryan G] The HDV vs SD debate [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
So much for the genie I thought lived inside the A1!



By most accounts it's a good camera, it just needs some tweaking for best results in low-light situations.


Bryan G
User


Aug 27, 2008, 5:39 PM

Post #16 of 21 (1165 views)
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Re: [KevinShaw] The HDV vs SD debate [In reply to] Can't Post

OK - you've given me a new project to work on but a very valuable one I am sure it will be. No point having a camera like this if I don't get ful use of it. Many thanks.

--------------------------------------
Many thanks for your help.....

BRYAN FROM DOWN-UNDER

There are precious few Einsteins
among us. Most brilliance arises
from ordinary people working
together in extraordinary ways
- Roger von Oech


Bryan G
User


Aug 27, 2008, 5:42 PM

Post #17 of 21 (1165 views)
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Re: [KevinShaw] The HDV vs SD debate [In reply to] Can't Post

Just an addendum Micahel - I have noticed the poor wording in my post. BOTH takes were inside - not one inside and one outside. The take on the cloudy day was vastly superior. Hopes this settles some confusion you may have had in your mind.

--------------------------------------
Many thanks for your help.....

BRYAN FROM DOWN-UNDER

There are precious few Einsteins
among us. Most brilliance arises
from ordinary people working
together in extraordinary ways
- Roger von Oech


KevinShaw
Veteran

Aug 27, 2008, 6:27 PM

Post #18 of 21 (1161 views)
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Re: [Bryan G] The HDV vs SD debate [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I have noticed the poor wording in my post. BOTH takes were inside - not one inside and one outside. The take on the cloudy day was vastly superior. Hopes this settles some confusion you may have had in your mind.



Ah, that is different from what I thought you meant. Sounds like more tests of 50i vs 24f and HD vs SD are in order to figure out when you get the graininess and what to do to minimize it.


Bryan G
User


Aug 27, 2008, 8:13 PM

Post #19 of 21 (1159 views)
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Re: [KevinShaw] The HDV vs SD debate [In reply to] Can't Post

Aha! So my suspicion re 50i vs 25F was correct - do you know I have googled it and searched past posts on VU and I just can't seem to find any information specific to the 50i/25F issue. One thing I have learned is that 24P (which I presume in PAL language means 25F although apparently one can get a 24P upgrade doen for the camera by Canon for about $500) is often used by "poor videograophers" to produce a movie look. I have heard others say that 24P gives a great look for interviews - presumably becuase they are static.

Could I ask the question - on your own camera, which mode would you shoot in for a static piano recording situation (piano about 6 metres from camera) with no controlled lighting - just heaps of light coming in from outside through expansive windows. I would attach a photo of the venue to give you an idea if I knew how to this on VU. Just visualise a room 11 metres by 6m with the piano in one corner and floor to ceiling glass totally on the sides closest to the piano. Would you agree that (setting aside the 50i/25F issue) good lighting practise would encourage one to:

a) Reduce/eliminate the amount of outside light coming in and mainly use controlled indoor lighting

b) If one cannot do the above (which I can't) then I should try to BALANCE up the light coming in from outside by having strong lights on the camera side of the pianist?

By the way, this is a $160,000 Steinway - the last one made with ivory keys!! And few were made in mahogany.

Thanks a lot Kevin for your help. I feel that with your further advice I will be well on my way to "enlightenment" and won't need to bother again - for a quite a while anyway!!

--------------------------------------
Many thanks for your help.....

BRYAN FROM DOWN-UNDER

There are precious few Einsteins
among us. Most brilliance arises
from ordinary people working
together in extraordinary ways
- Roger von Oech


MLiebergot
Veteran


Aug 28, 2008, 10:22 AM

Post #20 of 21 (1137 views)
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Re: [Bryan G] The HDV vs SD debate [In reply to] Can't Post

Bryan, while I'm not Kevin, I would like to give you some advice.

First off you will always get the best results with shooting when you are in control of everything, audio, lighting etc.
For the best results lighting is a must. It sounds like there either would be a lot of light or not enough, depending on the weather outside. As the windows sound like they are very large and will effect your overall picture in one manner or the other.

If possible, could you setup 2 lights on stands on both sides of the piano? Or one light on the side and boiuce some lighting off a reflector on the other side for some added diffused lighting. This way you can have better control of your picture, in case extra light is needed.

As for shooting in 24/25P, you will get good results, when shooting static subjects like a piano performance. It's when you have to shoot situations with lots of action, like guest dancing, sports and such that you can run into problems, especially if you have to slow down the footage dramatically. Also if you shoot in 24P, the camera is less sensitive to light and therefore you end up with the shutter open wider. This reduction of depth of field helps with the film effect but will never match a 35mm film as the sensor(s) in your camera are much smaller (if you want this effect the only easy way is to zoom in more and keep the iris as open as possible). So if you are getting a lot of light pouring in then 24P can be a help. If you don't have much light, then 24P can be a hindrance.

Michael

Cameras: I do use them.
Audio: Yes, it does come with audio if you like.
Software: I am learning...
Support: I need all that i can get.
Computer: MAC BABY!


Bryan G
User


Aug 28, 2008, 5:59 PM

Post #21 of 21 (1110 views)
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Re: [MLiebergot] The HDV vs SD debate [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks very much Michael- interesting points. On the basis of all this I have decided to enrol in a proper course. It is clearly a science. My principal mistake was in thinking that technology would replace having to think.

--------------------------------------
Many thanks for your help.....

BRYAN FROM DOWN-UNDER

There are precious few Einsteins
among us. Most brilliance arises
from ordinary people working
together in extraordinary ways
- Roger von Oech