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Home: Video University Forums: HDV:
To HDV or not to HDV? That is the question...

 

 


Vanessa M
User


Nov 2, 2005, 5:34 PM

Post #1 of 14 (2247 views)
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To HDV or not to HDV? That is the question... Can't Post

Hello everyone,

I'm going to re-open a topic that has been discussed here numerous times in the past. To HDV or not to HDV. Most of the posts I read regarding this are from a year ago, so I'm not sure how much the industry has changed since then. I'm a newbie to the whole videography realm and am in the market for a camera (or two). The first ones that come to mind are the Sony PD-170, the VX2100 and the FX1. Since it seems that we are on the cusp of the transition to HDV, would it be foolish to buy anything other than HDV? I'm concerned that if I don't go HDV now, I'll be playing catch up later (having to purchase HDV). I'd like to get a camera(s) that I can use for a couple of years, so I'd like to be fairly certain that going HDV is warranted at this time. Any thoughts???

Thanks in advance for your help!

Vanessa


videobear
Veteran


Nov 2, 2005, 9:45 PM

Post #2 of 14 (2222 views)
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Re: [Vanessa M] To HDV or not to HDV? That is the question... [In reply to] Can't Post

Hoo boy. It seems there are an equal number of partisans for both routes.

The good news is, I think that any of those cameras you get today will still be making money for you two years from now.

The upside of going DV is, the gear is cheaper, the workflow is well understood and supported by software, and you'll be compatible with nearly everyone.
The downside is that, as you say, we're on the cusp of the transition to HD (I draw a subtle distinction here; I think consumers are going to embrace High Def televisions in the coming year. Whether HDV will be a major player in creating content for them is another question. I think the answer is "yes", but still, they are two separate issues.)

The upside of HDV is that it's the latest and greatest. Image quality is superior to DV (generally speaking). It's widescreen, to match all those widescreen HD displays people will be buying. The downsides are, it costs more to shoot and edit in HDV, the workflow is -- well, it's still kind of a minefield of half-baked software applications, incompatible flavors of HDV, intermediate codecs, recapture -- reminds me of the early days of DV. I expect all this to smooth out, but in the meantime, you are on the "bleeding edge" and that means you'll probably do a little bleeding.




Regards,
Doug Graham
Panda Productions


McBe
Enthusiast


Nov 3, 2005, 2:29 AM

Post #3 of 14 (2211 views)
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Re: [Vanessa M] To HDV or not to HDV? That is the question... [In reply to] Can't Post

I would just buy a Sony FX1.

That way, you can play with both DV and HDV and find out what works for you, your business, and where you want to go. Sooner or later, everyone will be switching to HDV/HD so you'll have to get your feet wet sooner or later.



If you'll look at my lovely attire, you'll really vomit.
I am a fashion goddess.



KevinShaw
Veteran

Nov 3, 2005, 11:33 AM

Post #4 of 14 (2194 views)
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Re: [Vanessa M] To HDV or not to HDV? That is the question... [In reply to] Can't Post

Ditto what the previous poster said about the FX1, which is a fine camera. Buy one of those now and you can shoot/edit DV or HDV, plus you'll be well on your way to being equipped for the future. If you buy a DV-only camera you'll just have to replace it when HD becomes more popular, plus then you'd need another HD camera if you plan to do two-camera shoots. Buy an FX1 now and then you can add an even better HD camera later as more models become available.

Here's one example to consider if you want to know how footage from the Sony HDV cameras compares to both a PD150 and a much more expensive Digital Betacam camera: http://hdvplus.net/page22/page22.html


MLiebergot
Veteran


Nov 3, 2005, 12:34 PM

Post #5 of 14 (2189 views)
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Re: [kwshaw1] To HDV or not to HDV? That is the question... [In reply to] Can't Post

One question on this as I jump in here.
I currently shoot with VX2100, and GL1 and am going to be adding another camera shortly.

I want to go with either the Sony A1 or FX1 to shoot along with my VX2100. The 2100 would become my second wide camera and the FX1, my main.

How bad will my VX2100 footage be when compared to my HDV footage? Keeping in mind that final video will be DV video for standard DVD.

The only thing that comcerns me right now is the additional time required to edit HDV video footage. As there is definitely extra time needed, just to convert HDV video to proxy or intermediate codec for editing.

I currently edit on a 3.4 P4 HT processor with 800GB of hard drive space using Sony Vegas6 c. For financial reasons, I have no plans to update my system in the next year. Camera(s) first then new system.

Michael

Cameras: I do use them.
Audio: Yes, it does come with audio if you like.
Software: I am learning...
Support: I need all that i can get.
Computer: MAC BABY!


KevinShaw
Veteran

Nov 4, 2005, 1:31 AM

Post #6 of 14 (2160 views)
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Re: [MLiebergot] To HDV or not to HDV? That is the question... [In reply to] Can't Post

DV pales in comparison to HDV when viewed at HD resolution, but you could opt to use the FX1 in DV mode, or shoot HDV and downsample to DV out of the camera for capture and editing. So there's no reason not to go with the FX1, since you can use it any way which fits your delivery requirements and editing equipment.


MLiebergot
Veteran


Nov 4, 2005, 8:39 AM

Post #7 of 14 (2152 views)
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Re: [kwshaw1] To HDV or not to HDV? That is the question... [In reply to] Can't Post

I would shoot in HD and downconvert to either a proxy or intermediary codec (Cineform) for editing.

My question is, when I am mixing both HDV (Proxy of Cineform) and DV footage, which project setting should I be doing the editing on the timeline while using Vegas 6 (DV template for final output or HDV template)?
Keeping in mind that my final destination for this will be standard MPEG2 for DVD.

I would like to take full advantage of the added resolution from the HDV footage to zoom in a cop the picture even better.

Michael

Cameras: I do use them.
Audio: Yes, it does come with audio if you like.
Software: I am learning...
Support: I need all that i can get.
Computer: MAC BABY!


KevinShaw
Veteran

Nov 4, 2005, 7:22 PM

Post #8 of 14 (2131 views)
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Re: [MLiebergot] To HDV or not to HDV? That is the question... [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm not sure what the best solution would be in Vegas, but in Edius I use a 1080i project setting, import all relevant footage and export to SD MPEG2 from the timeline. As a general rule I don't recommend zooming more than 150% on your HDV footage, because the image quality deteriorates noticeably after that even for SD output.


JohnnyRoy
Novice

Nov 6, 2005, 12:47 PM

Post #9 of 14 (2091 views)
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Re: [MLiebergot] To HDV or not to HDV? That is the question... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
The only thing that comcerns me right now is the additional time required to edit HDV video footage. As there is definitely extra time needed, just to convert HDV video to proxy or intermediate codec for editing.

If you are using Sony Vegas you can purchase CineForm Connect HD and it will capture straight to the intermediate codec. So if you don't want to convert to a proxy after capture, you don't have to. This makes editing HDV just as quick as editing DV. Proxies are great for people who have an older PC. You trade off time for the cost of a new PC. I've used CineForm intermediaries on my P4 3.0Ghz and it's just as fast as editing DV. So your P4 3.4GHz PC will be fine.

As for mixing VX2100 & GL1 footage with the FX1, I don't have either of those cameras to test with my Z1U but unless you want to capture HDV because you want to zoom in or want to color correct in 4:2:0, I would capture downconverted DV directly from the camera. Then your footage will be 4:1:1 DV just like the VX2100 & GL1. At that point you are working totally in DV and your workflow will remain unchanged. Then when you have all HDV cameras, you can capture HDV and have the same high quality for all. (just a thought)

~jr

Co-author: VASST Instant ACID and Instant Vegas Movie Studio books
Developer: VASST Ultimate S, Celluloid, GearShift, and other VASST Software plug-ins
Web site: http://www.johnrofrano.com


MLiebergot
Veteran


Nov 6, 2005, 4:37 PM

Post #10 of 14 (2079 views)
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Re: [JohnnyRoy] To HDV or not to HDV? That is the question... [In reply to] Can't Post

Johnny, a quick question.

If I were to work with Cineform HDV video and edit in Vegas, and then render to MPEG video for DVD, would the final DVD video still look as bad on a HD TV as DV shot DVD?

Basically:
DV Video edited and rendered to DVD, looks bad on HD TV.

HDV footage edited and rendered to DVD, looks...?

Michael

Cameras: I do use them.
Audio: Yes, it does come with audio if you like.
Software: I am learning...
Support: I need all that i can get.
Computer: MAC BABY!


JohnnyRoy
Novice

Nov 6, 2005, 4:56 PM

Post #11 of 14 (2075 views)
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Re: [MLiebergot] To HDV or not to HDV? That is the question... [In reply to] Can't Post

Michael, I must confess I don’t have an HD TV so I can’t answer this question. All my money went to my Z1. ;-) Yea, I know, now I need an HD TV so I can appreciate it because although it looks awesome on my computer monitor, that isn’t even full resolution.

Since downconverted HDV looks better than DV because you started with much more resolution at the source, I would expect it to look a little better than DV when upconverted again but it’s not going to look anything like real HDV.

~jr

Co-author: VASST Instant ACID and Instant Vegas Movie Studio books
Developer: VASST Ultimate S, Celluloid, GearShift, and other VASST Software plug-ins
Web site: http://www.johnrofrano.com


MLiebergot
Veteran


Nov 7, 2005, 9:08 AM

Post #12 of 14 (2046 views)
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Re: [JohnnyRoy] To HDV or not to HDV? That is the question... [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks Johnny. I would never expect the final DVD to look as good as HD, but I was hoping it would look almost as good a store bought DVD's that are recorded with better cameras to begin with.

I currently own a Panasonic CT-27HL15 HDTV Monitor (4:3 screen size). that gives a pretty good HD picture, and a very good DVD picture from my LG HDMI Progressive scan DVD player. But my current DVD's that I would be delivering to my customers, don't look nearly as good as when viewed on a standard CRT TV. Although the picture looks a bit crisper when viewed at 16:9 instead of the standard 4:3.

Main goal is to deliver as good a final standard DVD product as I can for my customers, until the time comes to switch over and deliver HD DVD for my customers, wheather they view it on standard CRT TV's or HD TV's.

Michael

Cameras: I do use them.
Audio: Yes, it does come with audio if you like.
Software: I am learning...
Support: I need all that i can get.
Computer: MAC BABY!


KevinShaw
Veteran

Nov 7, 2005, 12:05 PM

Post #13 of 14 (2027 views)
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Re: [MLiebergot] To HDV or not to HDV? That is the question... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I would never expect the final DVD to look as good as HD, but I was hoping it would look almost as good a store bought DVD's that are recorded with better cameras to begin with.

Based on my experience I think that HDV can get you closer to that objective than typical DV cameras, but this is something you should test for yourself before making any equipment decisions. I made a draft DVD for a client recently which contained footage from both DV and HDV formats, and they commented on the DV portion as looking "blurry" compared to the HDV scenes. (Where everything was encoded using the same settings.) And HDV definitely makes it easier to generate good widescreen DVDs than most DV cameras, which generally aren't designed to shoot widescreen footage. However, remember that Hollywood not only uses better cameras, they can also afford expensive encoding setups and many-pass encoding to get the best possible DVD quality. HDV may make it easier to rival that by providing cleaner source material, but don't forget the importance of a good authoring process.


JohnnyRoy
Novice

Nov 7, 2005, 3:04 PM

Post #14 of 14 (2004 views)
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Re: [kwshaw1] To HDV or not to HDV? That is the question... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Based on my experience I think that HDV can get you closer to that objective than typical DV cameras, but this is something you should test for yourself before making any equipment decisions.


Actually, that’s not a bad idea. Why don’t you download some HDV M2T files from the Internet and encode them and watch them on your HD TV and see for yourself. There are some at the VASST HDV Portal. They were taken with the Sony HVR-Z1U. This is the best way to answer your question.

~jr

Co-author: VASST Instant ACID and Instant Vegas Movie Studio books
Developer: VASST Ultimate S, Celluloid, GearShift, and other VASST Software plug-ins
Web site: http://www.johnrofrano.com