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Home: Video University Forums: HDV:
Wht is the Best HDV Editing Sofware?

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videobear
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Mar 3, 2006, 3:22 PM

Post #26 of 77 (2925 views)
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Re: [ourweddingvideo] Wht is the Best HDV Editing Sofware? [In reply to]	Can't Post

I'd say you lit the first match, OWV.

I won't argue your assertion that FCP has superior ability to edit native HDV. But the ability of ANY editing system to edit native HDV is more marketing hype than an actual usable feature.

Even Apple recommends that you edit using an intermediate codec. Native HDV editng is far too slow and cumbersome.

Regards,
Doug Graham
Panda Productions

ourweddingvideo
User

Mar 3, 2006, 4:08 PM

Post #27 of 77 (2916 views)
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Re: [videobear] Wht is the Best HDV Editing Sofware? [In reply to]	Can't Post

Your probably right on that, my bad.
But your dead wrong on the choice of codec.
capturing in Inter. codec will require additional rendering of a clip, while native HDV in FCP only requires recalculating of the long GOP of each clips in and out point. In general you or I would be hard pressed to see any benefit either way in terms of visual or time savings, I had to run a little test to bear this out sense it's been a long time sense I have used Inter codec. I have talked with several Apple reps and even given them demo product to use in HDV and they have never expressed to me that I should use Inter. codec.
War spell check

JohnnyRoy
Novice

Mar 4, 2006, 3:46 PM

Post #28 of 77 (2905 views)
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Re: [Brackish] Wht is the Best HDV Editing Sofware? [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

Cineform is an "intermediate" codec. It's high resolution, like HDV, but not interframe compressed, like MPEG2. This results in much larger file sizes, but less strain on the CPU. Final video is rendered directly from the Cineform clips.

Is Cineform what the Vegas preset called "HDV 1080i intermediate" is for?
When you are working with Cineform?

And if you are working with the HDV m2t's without Cineform, at full resolution,
then you would use the Vegas preset "HDV 1080 i YUV"?

Doug, you're offering HDV for 2006, right? Are you using Cineform? And does that
work like, once you are done editing in the Cineform intermediate, you convert
back to full res?

CineForm is an intermediary codec that ships as part of Vegas 6. There is nothing more to buy. GearShift is an additional tool from VASST that will help you convert your native M2T footage to either CineForm or Sony YUV (if your PC is powerful enough to edit it) or a DV proxy (which will let you edit HDV on any PC that is capable of editing DV). So GearShift is complimentary to using the CineForm or Sony YUV codec.

You are correct that the "HDV 1080-60i intermediate" preset in Vegas uses the Cineform codec. M2T�s are just using the MPEG2 codec ("HDV 1080-60i" mpeg preset). The "HD 1080-60i YUV" preset is the Sony intermediary codec for use with a Decklink card. If you don�t have a Decklink card there is no need to use this as the files are quite large.

You can edit using the native M2T files in Vegas 6 (much to the chagrin of FCP users who think it can�t be done� I do this all the time), or you can convert to a more efficient editing format like CineForm or Sony YUV. There is no "converting back" to full res. All three of these formats are full res already and are acceptable for final rendering.

The only time you switch back to full res is if you use DV proxies with GearShift. That takes you from DV res back up to HiDef. Hope this clears thing up. If not, start another thread and we�ll go through your questions one at a time.

~jr

Co-author: VASST Instant ACID and Instant Vegas Movie Studio books
Developer: VASST Ultimate S, Celluloid, GearShift, and other VASST Software plug-ins
Web site: http://www.johnrofrano.com

(This post was edited by JohnnyRoy on Mar 4, 2006, 3:48 PM)

ourweddingvideo
User

Mar 6, 2006, 12:43 PM

Post #29 of 77 (2859 views)
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Re: [JohnnyRoy] Wht is the Best HDV Editing Sofware? [In reply to]	Can't Post

Not calling you out or anything but. You mention to things about HDV capture that are not correct. Wanted to clear this up.
First HDV inter is not a smaller compression foot print that native HDV capture, they are the same 25 mbs of images.
Second: FCP users "chagrin". I haven't chagrined sense I bought a DVC PRO product, luckily I sold it and have been chagrin free ever sense.

videobear
Veteran

Mar 6, 2006, 1:57 PM

Post #30 of 77 (2856 views)
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Re: [ourweddingvideo] Wht is the Best HDV Editing Sofware? [In reply to]	Can't Post

No, an intermediary codec DOES have less compression than native HDV...and it can't be transmitted on a 25 Mbs Firewire connection.

Regards,
Doug Graham
Panda Productions

ourweddingvideo
User

Mar 6, 2006, 2:01 PM

Post #31 of 77 (2853 views)
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Re: [videobear] Wht is the Best HDV Editing Sofware? [In reply to]	Can't Post

I'm capturing Inter. via firewire as I type. Not sure what your talking about.
I ran a test before I brought this maybe you should too.

videobear
Veteran

Mar 6, 2006, 3:23 PM

Post #32 of 77 (2851 views)
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Re: [ourweddingvideo] Wht is the Best HDV Editing Sofware? [In reply to]	Can't Post

You CAN'T be capturing an intermediary codec.

The data isn't on the camera in that form, and the camera doesn't translate into it. What you are doing is capturing the M2T stream and transcoding it in the computer into an intermediary format.

Regards,
Doug Graham
Panda Productions

ourweddingvideo
User

Mar 6, 2006, 3:51 PM

Post #33 of 77 (2845 views)
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Re: [videobear] Wht is the Best HDV Editing Sofware? [In reply to]	Can't Post

Sorry, here is a link to my capture as it is happening. Notice the codec.
It says least quality but the image is exactly the same as native HDV.
I'm doing this wedding in inter. codec just because, normally I would do it in native. But I want to give Inter. codec a full working test.
http://www.ourweddingvideo.com/fcp.html

P.S. We need to be able to post jpeg on the forum.

videobear
Veteran

Mar 6, 2006, 5:33 PM

Post #34 of 77 (2837 views)
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Re: [ourweddingvideo] Wht is the Best HDV Editing Sofware? [In reply to]	Can't Post

Sorry, that doesn't prove it is CAPTURING video that's in an intermediary form. As I said, it only means that the video is being transcoded and STORED as the intermediary form.

The video that goes down the Firewire pipeline from the camcorder to the computer is M2T. It has to be, because the camera doesn't have the means to make it anything else (except in-camera conversion to DV, but we're not talking about that here.)

Regards,
Doug Graham
Panda Productions

ourweddingvideo
User

Mar 6, 2006, 5:50 PM

Post #35 of 77 (2832 views)
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Re: [videobear] Wht is the Best HDV Editing Sofware? [In reply to]	Can't Post

Apparently one of us is missing something. Here is what Apple says. I'm puzzled at what you think your saying, Yes the footage is converted from it's mt2 form, that's why it's called intermediate not native. You are hurting my head.

About the Apple Intermediate Codec

The Apple Intermediate Codec is a high-quality video codec that Apple developed for use as an alternative to native MPEG-2 HDV editing in an HDV workflow. Instead of editing the MPEG-2 HDV data directly, you can capture video from the tape source and then transcode it with the Apple Intermediate Codec to optimize the video data for playback performance and quality.

Working with the Apple Intermediate Codec is less processor-intensive than working with native HDV. Unlike MPEG-2 HDV, the Apple Intermediate Codec does not use temporal compression, so every frame can be decoded and displayed immediately without first decoding other frames. The drawback of this codec is that it requires three to four times as much bandwidth and hard drive storage space as MPEG-2 HDV.

Data rates for the Apple Intermediate Codec are variable; the data rates and storage needed may vary slightly, depending on the complexity of your footage. Images with a lot of detail have a higher data rate, while images with less detail have a lower data rate.

KevinShaw
Veteran

Mar 6, 2006, 6:03 PM

Post #36 of 77 (2831 views)
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Re: [ourweddingvideo] Wht is the Best HDV Editing Sofware? [In reply to]	Can't Post

Okay, let's try to keep this constructive. FCP is apparently a fine HDV editing solution but isn't necessarily "all that" compared to PC-based HDV solutions. Canopus Edius gives you a choice between native HDV editing or using a more efficient intermediate editing codec, can mix SD and HD footage on one timeline without pre-rendering, has an option for real-time monitoring to an HDTV, and has a software solution for near-real-time output from an HDV timeline on fast computers. Premiere Pro with Cineform can edit HDV effectively on inexpensive PC laptops, which have many more configuration options than Mac laptops. Both Sony and Pinnacle have low-cost editing programs which can handle HDV footage, but I don't know if they have all the features iLife offers. And so on for all the other PC-based solutions for working with HDV and other video formats. If you like Macs and the FCP software suite that's fine, but please don't bother proclaiming that they're inherently better than what's available for PCs. Good video comes from the person creating it, not the hardware and software.

videobear
Veteran

Mar 6, 2006, 6:04 PM

Post #37 of 77 (2828 views)
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Re: [ourweddingvideo] Wht is the Best HDV Editing Sofware? [In reply to]	Can't Post

No argument with any of that.

The issue under discussion is when and where the video gets converted from native HDV to the intermediary form.

You (seem to be) saying that it happens at the camera, and the intermediary form is transmitted at 25 Mb/sec on the Firewire connection.

I maintain that's not possible, because
1) the camera doesn't do the conversion, the computer does, and
2) if the conversion WERE done at the camera end of the link, the data rate required to transmit the intermediary at full resolution and frame rate would be more than 25 Mb/sec.

The video comes out of the camera as native HDV, goes down the FireWire cable as native HDV, and gets converted to the intermediary form in the computer and stored in that form on the hard drive.

Regards,
Doug Graham
Panda Productions

ourweddingvideo
User

Mar 6, 2006, 6:15 PM

Post #38 of 77 (2828 views)
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Re: [kwshaw1] Wht is the Best HDV Editing Sofware? [In reply to]	Can't Post

I think we covered that 5 post ago. All NLE's capture HDV in multiple way's not one better than the other. Question was how Intermediate is captured. I was try follow that thread and show how Intermediate is capture.
The thing that differs FCP from PC's is it can do it within FCP and not rely of third party software. I say this because this has always been a problem with Premiere sense 4.5. When Adobe updates the software one has the wait tell the vendor can update it's software before one can enjoy the benefits of the update. I started using FCP 1.0 because Premiere was updated to this great version and guess what, it was going to take the vendors 3 to 4 weeks to address the new codes. The last update as a mac product, Premiere wasn't even compatible with QuickTime, that's crazy.

KevinShaw
Veteran

Mar 6, 2006, 9:06 PM

Post #39 of 77 (2810 views)
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Re: [ourweddingvideo] Wht is the Best HDV Editing Sofware? [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

The thing that differs FCP from PC's is it can do it within FCP and not rely of third party software.

Canopus Edius can capture to either native HDV or the Canopus HQ codec without using any third party software, and does a better job of dealing with mixed SD/HD video than FCP. Your arguments try to compare FCP to the entire PC platform without considering all the options for the latter, of which there are many.

In Reply To

I started using FCP 1.0 because Premiere was updated to this great version and guess what, it was going to take the vendors 3 to 4 weeks to address the new codes.

FCP was one of the last major editing applications to offer practical support for the HDV format, over a year after the early JVC cameras and several weeks after the Sony HDV cameras started shipping. As far as Cineform is concerned, which is the company that provides the intermediate codec option for Premiere Pro, they were the first on either platform to offer an efficient HDV editing solution, and they've been responding faster to new camera options than most of the big players -- including Apple. Apple offers a good HDV solution now and you should enjoy that, but you're not accomplishing anything by putting down PC-based HDV solutions.

JohnnyRoy
Novice

Mar 6, 2006, 9:18 PM

Post #40 of 77 (2810 views)
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Re: [ourweddingvideo] Wht is the Best HDV Editing Sofware? [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

I�m not sure I understand what you mean by a �HDV inter is not a smaller compression foot print that native HDV capture� Are you saying that if you capture native m2t or capture as an intermediary on FCP the file size is the same? That�s strange.

M2T�s are compressed at about 20:1. On the PC, CineForm intermediaries are only compressed at 10:1 to 5:1 (it uses variable compression). So for the PC, the intermediaries are compressed less and therefore their footprint is larger. In general, LESS compression means a LARGER footprint. MORE compression means a SMALLER footprint.

~jr

Co-author: VASST Instant ACID and Instant Vegas Movie Studio books
Developer: VASST Ultimate S, Celluloid, GearShift, and other VASST Software plug-ins
Web site: http://www.johnrofrano.com

ourweddingvideo
User

Mar 6, 2006, 10:37 PM

Post #41 of 77 (2798 views)
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Re: [JohnnyRoy] Wht is the Best HDV Editing Sofware? [In reply to]	Can't Post

Refer back to the post I made four back. Intermediate codecs are variable rate. On average, you will find that the capture will be the same given factors of movement and such, changes the data rate of Intermediate codec.
I tested this and it bares out. I capture a clip with slit movement with Intermediate and than with native HDV mt2 ruffly the same size for each capture. While this is not a constant all thing be equal over time the two ways of capture tend to come out the same. given that Intermediate lowers it's data rate as needed during capture.
Data rates for the Apple Intermediate Codec are variable; the data rates and storage needed may vary slightly, depending on the complexity of your footage. Images with a lot of detail have a higher data rate, while images with less detail have a lower data rate.

RustyB
Veteran

Mar 7, 2006, 12:34 AM

Post #42 of 77 (2792 views)
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Re: [VidMan] Wht is the Best HDV Editing Sofware? [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

I use the VASST Gearshift app to create the proxy video to edit then shift back to the original video for rendering.

How come you just don't use Cineform, which comes with Vegas 6?

Just curious. I'm still using Vegas 5. I tried the ConnectHD Cineform demo, and it worked great on my PC. But I'm wondering if I should just buy Vegas 6 instead of buying ConnectHD.

Sony's website says Vegas6 supports Cineform, but I can't find where it says that it INCLUDES it. I'm going to be extremely upset if I buy Vegas6, and still have to buy Vegas5. That's the only reason I'd be upgrading to 6!

So, Vegas 6 FOR SURE comes with Cineform? Is it integrated into Vegas, or do I still have to use a separate application to capture/convert?

Faith Poison Wedding Films Blog
Intergalactic Award-Winning Epic-Cinematic Wedding New-Doc Style Indie Fusion Bridal Movies on Hi-Definition Blu-Ray Disc

JohnnyRoy
Novice

Mar 7, 2006, 9:13 AM

Post #43 of 77 (2764 views)
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Re: [RustyB] Wht is the Best HDV Editing Sofware? [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

Sony's website says Vegas6 supports Cineform, but I can't find where it says that it INCLUDES it. I'm going to be extremely upset if I buy Vegas6, and still have to buy Vegas5. That's the only reason I'd be upgrading to 6!

Confusing isn't it. :( There is the CineForm CODEC, which Vegas 6 INCLUDES, and then there is CineForm Connect HD which Vegas 6 DOES NOT include.

So you can capture as M2T from within Vegas 6 and then render those files to the CineForm codec after capture without buying anything extra. What GearShift does is automate the rendering part (among other things) and allows you to also build DV proxies for editing. GearShift is less expensive than Connect HD and creates the intermediaries after capture instead of during capture as with Connect HD. It plugs into Vegas 5 or Vegas 6.

If you want to capture direct to an intermediary, you will still need to buy Connect HD even if you buy Vegas 6. So if you have no need for any of the new features in Vegas 6 (like nested timelines, VST effects, Media Manager, tape-style scrubbing, AV sync repair, improved MPEG rendering speed, etc.) then you will be better off just buying Connect HD and staying with Vegas 5.

~jr

Co-author: VASST Instant ACID and Instant Vegas Movie Studio books
Developer: VASST Ultimate S, Celluloid, GearShift, and other VASST Software plug-ins
Web site: http://www.johnrofrano.com

MLiebergot
Veteran

Mar 7, 2006, 10:00 AM

Post #44 of 77 (2760 views)
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Re: [RustyB] Wht is the Best HDV Editing Sofware? [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

I use the VASST Gearshift app to create the proxy video to edit then shift back to the original video for rendering.

Connect HD utilizes the newest version of the Cineform codec, which will enable you to get a slightly cleaner and smaller intermediary captured file, than using Vegas (with the older codec).
Also Connect HD lets you save time as you can capture and convert on the fly, while in Vegas you have to capture and then convert to Cineform, or even capture and convert usng GearShift. Also from what i have read GearShift will use the old Cineform Codec, as it uses the codec that comes with Vegas. The new release of Vegas7 will hopefully enable you to capture and convert on teh fly like Connect HD does.

Michael

Cameras: I do use them.
Audio: Yes, it does come with audio if you like.
Software: I am learning...
Support: I need all that i can get.
Computer: MAC BABY!

(This post was edited by MLiebergot on Mar 7, 2006, 10:02 AM)

Chuck_e7
Veteran

Mar 10, 2006, 5:41 PM

Post #45 of 77 (2627 views)
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Re: [DSE] Wht is the Best HDV Editing Sofware? [In reply to]	Can't Post

Doug, I'm about to load PP2. What are the negatives that you've seen/heard about it with respect to HDV ?

"600 yards out, I can still see you!"

bbalser
User

Mar 10, 2006, 6:46 PM

Post #46 of 77 (2621 views)
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Re: [ourweddingvideo] Wht is the Best HDV Editing Sofware? [In reply to]	Can't Post

Thast FCP screen is not one you can access WHILE your capturing. It shows the info AFTER the catpure is done. The computer can only read the native data off the camera, that is HDV native, period.

If you go into your Audio/Video settings, take a look at all your Capture Presets. Notice that you can duplicate and change just about all of them EXCEPT the "HDV" and "HDV-Apple Intermediate Codec" presets. That is because they do more than just capture. To quote the discription on that screen, "Use this preset to capture from HDV device and transcode it to Apple Intermediate Codec."

So, you DO actually capture first, transcode second, BUT FCP is doing it all in one batch job that is seemless to the end user. And yes, there is extra processing using the AIC, but keep in mind, native HDV, you can only do edits on I frames. The AIC creates a code that is ALL I FRAMES! So you can edit on any frame in RT.

I'm just begining to use DVCPRO-HD to edit with on a G5/2.0 and I'm not seeing very much difference between editing HD and DV. Some, but nothing important enough to mention.

DSE
Veteran

Mar 10, 2006, 9:55 PM

Post #47 of 77 (2618 views)
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Re: [Chuck_e7] Wht is the Best HDV Editing Sofware? [In reply to]	Can't Post

I'm not at all a fan of PP2 for HDV. PP 1.5, yes. PP2? Not at all. It's slower, but the worst of it is that it edits native, they're not supporting the CineForm codec as a standard in PP2 like they did in 1.5. GOP is a bad/poor/inefficient/inaccurate means of editing. As Bbbalser mentions in a post above, FCP also is better with AIC. Intermediary codecs are the way to fly. Someone at Adobe messed that one up, IMO.

Douglas Spotted Eagle
Author, producer, composer
www.vasst.com
"I enjoy music, long walks at sunset on the beach, and poking dead things with a sharp stick."

bruceo
Veteran

Mar 10, 2006, 10:09 PM

Post #48 of 77 (2618 views)
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Re: [DSE] Wht is the Best HDV Editing Sofware? [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

Thanks for that overview ... why did you say Premiere "blew it" for HDV?

They did away with the Cineform codec as an integral part of their HDV workflow. Native HDV is a silly thing to edit on any platform, IMO. The GOP format creates issues for color correction, recompression, etc.

Cineform vs proxy: Wouldnt proxy editing issues be the same as native m2t editing issues? Because you are eventually applying all of your edits and filters to the m2t when rendering? Where cineform allows all of the edits and filters to be applied to a wavelet based codec in 4:2:2 colorspace?

First Sight Pictures

DSE
Veteran

Mar 11, 2006, 12:03 AM

Post #49 of 77 (2614 views)
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Re: [bruceo] Wht is the Best HDV Editing Sofware? [In reply to]	Can't Post

To a degree, you're right. Except that you don't gain quality in the 4:2:2 I-P frame conversion, you gain speed. Some feel you lose quality converting to 4:2:2 I-P, but I'd debate that.
Proxy editing (with GearShift) compensates in the building of the proxy for colorspace issues, therefore allowing you to work in the same color space as you'd be working with in CineForm. When you swap out the proxies for the m2t, it's as if you've been editing m2t, but not dealing with the pain, and more importantly, you're seeing frame for frame accuracy, rather than interpolated frames. So no....it's not the same.
That said, proxy editing really should only be used on slower, older computers. If you have a 3.6 or faster, it's a pretty hard argument that you should/would work with proxies.
To sum up tho...*if* you're working with a render-only phase of m2t, you lose nothing in just one render. If you end up recompressing, you're crazy to attempt that with m2t if you want to maintain quality. CineForm allows for multiple pass renders/recompressions with less loss. (it's still lossy tho)

Douglas Spotted Eagle
Author, producer, composer
www.vasst.com
"I enjoy music, long walks at sunset on the beach, and poking dead things with a sharp stick."

Chuck_e7
Veteran

Mar 14, 2006, 12:56 AM

Post #50 of 77 (2549 views)
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Re: [DSE] Wht is the Best HDV Editing Sofware? [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hmmm

. I see Howard's using it, but I think he is doing just SD. And so long as there is nothing to burn this stuff anyway, may be by that time Adobe will hear the "loud pop" and come up with a fix.

"600 yards out, I can still see you!"

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