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Home: Video University Forums: HDV:
Wht is the Best HDV Editing Sofware?

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MSDowney
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Mar 25, 2006, 1:02 AM

Post #51 of 77 (2326 views)
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Re: [thembimoyo] Wht is the Best HDV Editing Sofware? [In reply to]	Can't Post

With the right computer Canous Edius can play 4 streams of HDV in realtime. No proxy footage, no rendering.

I would check it out... The TV Stations going HD are mostly going Edius these days... How do I know? I train them :)

My second choise would be Premiere with Cineform.

Mike

Thomson/GrassValley

KevinShaw
Veteran

Mar 25, 2006, 1:02 PM

Post #52 of 77 (2309 views)
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Re: [MSDowney] Wht is the Best HDV Editing Sofware? [In reply to]	Can't Post

I like Edius for HDV editing, but it requires at least a dual-core or dual processor computer to be effective, and there's a glitch in Procoder Express which requires a workaround to output good SD MPEG2 from HDV source. My next choice on the PC platform would be either Premiere Pro or Vegas with Cineform or Avid Liquid. If you're on a Mac you're best choice is clearly Final Cut Pro.

DavidRennie
User

Mar 26, 2006, 1:38 AM

Post #53 of 77 (2293 views)
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Re: [kwshaw1] Wht is the Best HDV Editing Sofware? [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

For what it is worth I use Avid Liquid and it performs very well. No need to use Cineform, instead I actually edit it as native HDV. Does require a dual core or dual processor with plenty of RAM though unless you like waiting around for stuff to render. With my system I am able to get up to four layers in RT.

KevinShaw
Veteran

Mar 28, 2006, 12:52 PM

Post #54 of 77 (2255 views)
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Re: [DavidRennie] Wht is the Best HDV Editing Sofware? [In reply to]	Can't Post

David: what computer hardware do you have, and how long does it take you to render from an HDV timeline to widescreen SD output? Any other comments on how well it's working for you for HDV editing?

DavidRennie
User

Mar 28, 2006, 10:06 PM

Post #55 of 77 (2241 views)
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Re: [kwshaw1] Wht is the Best HDV Editing Sofware? [In reply to]	Can't Post

As you may have read in an earlier thread, my dual core machine is pretty new to me so I haven't had the chance to output to DVD just yet. I do hope in the next few hours or sometime tomorrow to be able to report that but I can tell you the work flow leading up to that is great. When working with DV I never got real excited about background rendering, as rendering DV wasn't nearly as taxing on a system as rendering HDV. That said if I had to stop everytime I needed something to render it would be a slower process. Because I have dual cores Liquid can render effects as I continue to work and that saves me time. Without dual cores background rendering of HDV footage bogs down the computer too much.

Non-specific to Liquid, the dual cores have drastically improved the amount of time it takes working with HDV footage. For example what is now my "SD machine" is a 3.2 HT P4 with 1 gig of RAM, ATI X700 pro PCIe card with 256 MB, and a 500 Gig Raid 0 drive. My "HD Machine" is a 3.2 Ghz dual Core Pentium D, 2 gigs of RAM, 500 Gig Raid 0 drive, and a 512 MB ATI X1800XT video card. Despite not all things being equal (ram and graphics card) I did a few test between the two. Working with a 4 second clip I applied a 50% timewarp which took a whopping 19 minutes to render on the SD machine but a meager 52 seconds on the HD Machine. Color correction had similar though less dramatic results, using the same 4 second clip and removing the color red, the SD machine took 9 minutes while the HD machine took 37 seconds. The timeline is also far more responsive on the dual core computer.

If your even thinking of a new computer I think you should seriously consider a dual core unit.

(This post was edited by DavidRennie on Mar 28, 2006, 10:08 PM)

AndrewMSV
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Mar 29, 2006, 5:25 AM

Post #56 of 77 (2227 views)
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Re: [MSDowney] Wht is the Best HDV Editing Sofware? [In reply to]	Can't Post

Quote

With the right computer Canous Edius can play 4 streams of HDV in realtime.

Mike, you're not referring to Edius Pro3, are you?
I thought only the Broadcast version handles HD footage... or maybe I'm thinking of the NX and HD turnkey stuff... Crazy

My Edius Pro3 doesn't even have an HD project setting - it only has 16:9 settings. Can I capture and edit HD content on my current machine?!
I'm running a DVStorm2 turnkey system from Core Microsystems. (I'm sure you're familiar with Core.)

Thoughts?

Andrew
m o r n i n g__s t a r__v i d e o g r a p h y
sf chapter, vu california crew
I think we should turn that whole region into one shiny piece of radioactive glass. - CartoonChris

KevinShaw
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Mar 29, 2006, 8:43 AM

Post #57 of 77 (2226 views)
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Re: [DavidRennie] Wht is the Best HDV Editing Sofware? [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

Working with a 4 second clip I applied a 50% timewarp which took a whopping 19 minutes to render on the SD machine but a meager 52 seconds on the HD Machine. Color correction had similar though less dramatic results, using the same 4 second clip and removing the color red, the SD machine took 9 minutes while the HD machine took 37 seconds.

You're talking about background rendering, right? For what it's worth, none of what you described would require any rendering time while editing HDV in Edius on a decent dual-core computer. Edius does require rendering the entire HDV timeline when you're done and that can be rather time-consuming, but at least that's an unattended task which doesn't affect the editing process. This workflow difference is part of why I wasn't particularly impressed with Liquid when I tried it a while back, and it sounds like that hasn't changed.

DavidRennie
User

Mar 29, 2006, 9:59 AM

Post #58 of 77 (2225 views)
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Re: [kwshaw1] Wht is the Best HDV Editing Sofware? [In reply to]	Can't Post

What is the cost of that performance? Not being even remotely familiar with Canopus it appears Edius offers muliple HDV solutions which range quite widely in terms of cost. I have been using Liquid since version 4.5 and between he initial investment and 3 upgrades I have just over a grand invested (granted it I was to buy it today it would be $1k). Because I have used other programs in the same price range (Vegas for one) I know that Liquid is quite a bit faster in the old rendering department than some programs in the same price category (sorry Vegas users, please don't flame me).

I am not suggesting that any additional cost is not a worthy investment I am just curious if we are comparing apples to apples.

MSDowney
Veteran

Mar 29, 2006, 11:08 AM

Post #59 of 77 (2222 views)
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Re: [AndrewMSV] Wht is the Best HDV Editing Sofware? [In reply to]	Can't Post

I know CoreMicro! Paul the Video Man!! (I wonder what has happended to him)

If you upgrade to the latest version you will have HD settings.

The only thing that makes a difference between Edius Pro and Edius Pro Broadcast is a bunch of codecs for broadcast. The progrm itself is the same and handles up to 1080i.

Just make sure you have 3.61. :)

Mike

Thomson/GrassValley

MSDowney
Veteran

Mar 29, 2006, 11:27 AM

Post #60 of 77 (2219 views)
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Re: [DavidRennie] Wht is the Best HDV Editing Sofware? [In reply to]	Can't Post

I have a dual Xeon 3.4 with no hardware from Canopus at all. I also have a zero strip raid with 4 drives.

Canopus has a intermediary codec called HQ that takes native HDV files and creates a larger VBR file that has about a 100 megabit (around 12 megabyte) transfer rate.

This Codec has been along with many others and it was the only one that stuck with Cineform generation after generation. This test was NOT done by Canopus or a Canopus user.

Even though the file is larger it allows the computer to spend more time with any effects or transitions you are using. I am able to get 5 layers of 1080i playing in realtime/full frame/ full resolution not only to overlay windows but out to a HD monitor also.

The Canopus hardware allows you to take jobs away from the CPU's such as overlay output and eternal monitor output and they also give you the ability to have machine control (depending on what version of the hardware you get determines what control you have)

I don't have any of the hardware.

If you have a strong enough computer you can do quite well with the Canopus solutions. :)

Mike

Thomson/GrassValley

MSDowney
Veteran

Mar 29, 2006, 11:32 AM

Post #61 of 77 (2219 views)
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Re: [DSE] Wht is the Best HDV Editing Sofware? [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

Vegas with CineForm, Canopus with NX are both good. NX isn't nearly the quality that CineForm is, and it's slower. CineForm is a wavelet-based codec, and is *currently* the most efficient system out there.

Actually you don't need the NX, jusr Edius and somebody from Cineform did a test of Codecs and found that Canopus's HQ stayed right with Cineform generation after generation. On the other Hand the Avid Codec fell apart after just a few generations compared to the other two.

Cineform is Great stuff! no doubt about it but so is HQ :)

Mike

Thomson/GrassValley

MSDowney
Veteran

Mar 29, 2006, 11:36 AM

Post #62 of 77 (2219 views)
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Re: [David L] Wht is the Best HDV Editing Sofware? [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

Thanks for that overview ... why did you say Premiere "blew it" for HDV?

I couldn't agree with Douglas more. And to add another problem to his list, editing native HDV makes your computer a slug. The CPU's have to decode the Long GOP so you can try to edit it on a frame accurate basis.

The ability to edit is cut down to almost nothing because the computer is so busy trying to decode the file.

(Of course this is if you are editing full res and framerate)

Mike

Thomson/GrassValley

MSDowney
Veteran

Mar 29, 2006, 11:40 AM

Post #63 of 77 (2219 views)
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Re: [ourweddingvideo] Wht is the Best HDV Editing Sofware? [In reply to]	Can't Post

I do not know about some of the other PC Programs but the Canopus software can edit native without crashing ever BUT who would want to? Like DSE was saying... the Long GOP of HDV is not a good format to edit.

So if FCP doesn't have a codec that creates a more edit friendly file I would say that is a reason NOT to use it!

Mike

Thomson/GrassValley

MSDowney
Veteran

Mar 29, 2006, 11:46 AM

Post #64 of 77 (2219 views)
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Re: [ourweddingvideo] Wht is the Best HDV Editing Sofware? [In reply to]	Can't Post

Doug is correct here... the reason the file sizes are so much larger is because the codecs fill in much of the missing info... this does a couple of things...

1. You can edit much faster

2. Rendering the final product is actually faster (if many changes were made)

DSE also named some of the other benefits earlier. So I stck with what I said before... Editing Native is not a plus.

Mike

Thomson/GrassValley

MSDowney
Veteran

Mar 29, 2006, 11:48 AM

Post #65 of 77 (2215 views)
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Re: [ourweddingvideo] Wht is the Best HDV Editing Sofware? [In reply to]	Can't Post

If you are capturing from the camera you are not capturing the Inter. You are having the HDV come across the firewire and the computer is creating the other file on the fly.

You can't send an Inter over Firewire... it is to large.

Mike

Thomson/GrassValley

MSDowney
Veteran

Mar 29, 2006, 11:51 AM

Post #66 of 77 (2210 views)
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Re: [ourweddingvideo] Wht is the Best HDV Editing Sofware? [In reply to]	Can't Post

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Apparently one of us is missing something. Here is what Apple says. I'm puzzled at what you think your saying, Yes the footage is converted from it's mt2 form, that's why it's called intermediate not native. You are hurting my head.

About the Apple Intermediate Codec

The Apple Intermediate Codec is a high-quality video codec that Apple developed for use as an alternative to native MPEG-2 HDV editing in an HDV workflow. Instead of editing the MPEG-2 HDV data directly, you can capture video from the tape source and then transcode it with the Apple Intermediate Codec to optimize the video data for playback performance and quality.

Working with the Apple Intermediate Codec is less processor-intensive than working with native HDV. Unlike MPEG-2 HDV, the Apple Intermediate Codec does not use temporal compression, so every frame can be decoded and displayed immediately without first decoding other frames. The drawback of this codec is that it requires three to four times as much bandwidth and hard drive storage space as MPEG-2 HDV.

Data rates for the Apple Intermediate Codec are variable; the data rates and storage needed may vary slightly, depending on the complexity of your footage. Images with a lot of detail have a higher data rate, while images with less detail have a lower data rate.

There ya go... you answered your own question :)

I hope you didn't hink I was trying to be mean... just want to make sure that folks that are new to this do not get confused :)

Mike

Thomson/GrassValley

MSDowney
Veteran

Mar 29, 2006, 11:52 AM

Post #67 of 77 (2207 views)
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Re: [MSDowney] Wht is the Best HDV Editing Sofware? [In reply to]	Can't Post

Seeing myself that manytimes is SCARY!!!!!

Mike

Thomson/GrassValley

AndrewMSV
Veteran

Mar 29, 2006, 2:19 PM

Post #68 of 77 (2198 views)
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Re: [MSDowney] Wht is the Best HDV Editing Sofware? [In reply to]	Can't Post

Holy post-count jump, Batman!

Andrew
m o r n i n g__s t a r__v i d e o g r a p h y
sf chapter, vu california crew
I think we should turn that whole region into one shiny piece of radioactive glass. - CartoonChris

MSDowney
Veteran

Mar 29, 2006, 2:30 PM

Post #69 of 77 (2196 views)
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Re: [AndrewMSV] Wht is the Best HDV Editing Sofware? [In reply to]	Can't Post

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA... Tell me about it. No wonder I have near to 8000 posts on the Canopus forums! :)

Btw... there seems to be a California Crew for VU... any other states have a crew?

Mike

Thomson/GrassValley

(This post was edited by MSDowney on Mar 29, 2006, 2:31 PM)

AndrewMSV
Veteran

Mar 29, 2006, 2:34 PM

Post #70 of 77 (2192 views)
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Re: [MSDowney] Wht is the Best HDV Editing Sofware? [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

Btw... there seems to be a California Crew for VU... any other states have a crew?

Yes, but I havent seen a utah (you're in utah, right?)

Cheers!

Andrew
m o r n i n g__s t a r__v i d e o g r a p h y
sf chapter, vu california crew
I think we should turn that whole region into one shiny piece of radioactive glass. - CartoonChris

MSDowney
Veteran

Mar 29, 2006, 2:37 PM

Post #71 of 77 (2189 views)
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Re: [AndrewMSV] Wht is the Best HDV Editing Sofware? [In reply to]	Can't Post

Yep! We will have to see if there are anymore of us. :)

Mike

Thomson/GrassValley

KevinShaw
Veteran

Mar 29, 2006, 7:28 PM

Post #72 of 77 (2176 views)
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Re: [DavidRennie] Wht is the Best HDV Editing Sofware? [In reply to]	Can't Post

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What is the cost of that performance? ...I have been using Liquid since version 4.5 and between he initial investment and 3 upgrades I have just over a grand invested (granted it I was to buy it today it would be $1k).

I've been using Edius since version 1 and have probably spent ~$800 or so on the initial software plus upgrades. I also have a Canopus DVStorm which cost me ~$1200 several years ago, and has saved me countless hours since then rendering MPEG2 output in real time -- including from HDV source. I have a new dual-core computer with a $333 processor which can do a two-layer 1080i PIP without rendering using the HQ editing format, plus most other day-to-day editing tasks. Sometimes this setup seems a little sluggish so I wish I had just a little more horsepower, but what I really want now is a dual-core laptop.

I've seen Liquid in action with HDV and it seemed to work reasonably well, but I haven't tried it for myself.

MSDowney
Veteran

Mar 29, 2006, 7:35 PM

Post #73 of 77 (2175 views)
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Re: [kwshaw1] Wht is the Best HDV Editing Sofware? [In reply to]	Can't Post

I am getting a DUal Core Dell to try out. I will let you know how it goes.

I am trying to get something that I can recommend to the New folks I train.

So we shall see :)

Mike

Thomson/GrassValley

videobear
Veteran

Mar 30, 2006, 10:10 AM

Post #74 of 77 (2146 views)
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Re: [MSDowney] Wht is the Best HDV Editing Sofware? [In reply to]	Can't Post

There's a VA Chapter...I guess I should update my sig file to show membership.

Folks from any state, country, region, municipality, or mining camp can band together and declare themselves a local VU gathering/band/usergroup/sorority...we're very open-minded on this virtual campus.

Mike, you and Spot could be the nucleus of a Utah contingent. But you gotta come up with a snazzy name. Smile

Regards,
Doug Graham
Panda Productions

MSDowney
Veteran

Mar 30, 2006, 10:47 AM

Post #75 of 77 (2143 views)
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Re: [videobear] Wht is the Best HDV Editing Sofware? [In reply to]	Can't Post

Thank you Doug :)

Mike

Thomson/GrassValley

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