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Home: Video University Forums: HDV:
hdv questions.

howardst
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Jul 31, 2007, 11:59 AM

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hdv questions.	Can't Post

I am thinking of buying an fx1 or v1 this winter, and marketing hdv to my clients next wedding season. I am struggling with doing this for many reasons, not the least of which is losing my great low light capabilities that i have with my vx2000s. Anyway my questions are is the intermediate codec I need to buy to work with sony vegas 7 used for easier editing, or is it because i will more than likely be delivering dv not hdv for now anyway? The way I see it, until walmart is selling blu ray or hd players for 120.00 bucks or so, my client base will never see the hd anyway. im not interested in deceiving my clients like alot of vendors in my are do about hd. They tell them their getting hd, they dont tell them its filmed that way but delivered standard. I know Im ranting, but basically Ive got a decent core 2 dup machine, with an 800 gig hard drive. I edit with sony vegas 7. If I buy an hdv cam, what do I need to make editing and delivery as easy and painless as possible. Any insight on this is greatly appreciated. Thanks everyone.

chucksav
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Jul 31, 2007, 2:40 PM

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We have been shooting in HDV with Z1s since our first wedding of 2006. We tell our clients upfront that we shoot & edit in HD, but will deliver their wedding movie on a wide-screen standard definition DVD, and that we will create a high-definition disk when it is feasible for us to do so. We also offer to deliver an HDV version on tape, but no one has wanted one.

Yes, you will loose about a stop & a half of sensitivity (Z1/FX1 vs. the VX2k/PD150). It has not crippled our shooting style.

You may want to wait a little while before making a decision. The Sony XDCam EX is due out in the fall, and with half-inch chips, should have better sensitivity.

renniedj
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Jul 31, 2007, 10:11 PM

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We use Edius and Avid Liquid to cut HDV and both have different approaches. Avid edits HDV in a native m2v format. Edius has its own codec for dealing with HDV, converting the footage on the fly to a HD avi. Both appraoches work very well. Not being a Vegas user it is hard for me to answer your question as it relates to Vegas. But for post, when dealing with HDV you want the badest computer you can get your hands on. At a minimum you need a 3.2 ghz dual core Intel, with 2 gigs of ram. Graphics card can be NLE specific, but generally the more on board memory the better.

When dealing with intermediate codecs your hard drive space requirements will greatly increase. For example Edius requires about 50 gigs per hour of converted HDV content. Whereas Avid requires just 13 gigs (the came as DV - both are 25 mbit). The downside of Avid's approach is of course the CPU/graphics card requirements will be higher.

Now delivery is another matter and finally options are coming around. For HD-DVD you can burn 20-25 minutes to a single layer DVD, or about twice that with a dual layer. Studio 10.7 is the software we use to accomplish this. Aside from the software (less than $150) there is no additional investment. BluRay is another story. Here you have to buy a burner, but at least they are coming down. Last I saw they were just under $700 with the media running at about $30 per disk. There are more options for burning BluRay. Ulead has a program for around $70, there is Adobe Encore (CS3) and others. Burning a BluRay that can be played reliably is another matter (we have not had the same issue with HD-DVD though). Several of the Sony BluRay players will not play a BD-R (but the PS3 will). I have also read reports of Samsung players having issues. Delivery will likely be the hardest step in the post process for the time being until the BluRay spec settles down and actual HD-DVD burners are released (hopefully next year?).

Thanks,

David Rennie

Trinity Wedding Video

howardst
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Aug 1, 2007, 12:14 AM

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Re: [renniedj] hdv questions. [In reply to]	Can't Post

I have a computer with this processorIntel Core 2 Duo E6600 Conroe 2.4GHz LGA 775 Processor I have 2 gig of ram and an 8 hundred gig hard drive. Are you saying that this is not sufficient for handling hdv? If its not, I am going to wait another season. I just built this system with hd in mind. The motherboard board is decent. Not the best.

Thanks for your reply I appreciate it.

renniedj
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Aug 1, 2007, 1:22 AM

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Re: [howardst] hdv questions. [In reply to]	Can't Post

The conroe processor (aka core 2 duo), while running at a lower clock speed than previous Intel chips, is capable of faster processing than the 955 chipset of the 3.2 ghz dual core I was referring to. So processor wise you are fine. RAM wise two gigs is the minimum so you are good there too. Hard drive space, well depending on how you shoot, and how many weddings that one computer will need to "hold" at any given time you might come up a tad short. But hard drives are easy to add and not too expensive.

Thanks,

David Rennie

Trinity Wedding Video

KevinShaw
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Aug 1, 2007, 10:09 AM

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Clarifying what David said: Edius offers both native HDV editing and an optional "intermediate" HD codec which significantly increases performance but requires more hard drive space to store the source video. With hard drives so cheap these days I recommend the intermediate option unless you have a very large amount of video to edit (e.g. dozens of hours' worth).

Blu-ray burners are currently selling for as little as $450 and blank discs are below $20, but that's still expensive unless you have customers willing to pay enough to justify that. Reports of playback issues are also common, with the Playstation 3 appearing to be the best Blu-ray playback device. All this makes the option of authoring for HD-DVD using standard red-laser discs look pretty good, but I'm not sure about recommending HD-DVD players to customers when the format as a whole appears to be losing ground to Blu-ray. (Plus the limited capacity of red-laser discs is an issue for anything besides short projects.) There isn't any one clear-cut good delivery answer yet, so you have to size up what works for you and your customers based on current options and cost.

renniedj
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Aug 1, 2007, 10:13 AM

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In Reply To

Thanks for adding that - because with Edius we alway use the HD codec I forgot to mention that the user has either option......

Thanks,

David Rennie

Trinity Wedding Video

KevinShaw
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Aug 1, 2007, 10:35 AM

Post #8 of 22 (4217 views)
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In Reply To

I have a computer with this processorIntel Core 2 Duo E6600 Conroe 2.4GHz LGA 775 Processor I have 2 gig of ram and an 8 hundred gig hard drive.

That should be fine, but recommend you get a separate hard drive for doing your editing work. Use one of the intermediate editing options discussed above for best performance: Edius "HQ" codec or Premiere Pro with the Cineform plugin.

HDV is useful even without HD delivery, since you can make widescreen SD DVDs which look better than what's possible with most DV cameras. Plus for customers who can afford HD delivery, you can finally deliver quality close to what's recorded by the camera - something we never had with DV.

Ron Priest
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Sep 12, 2007, 10:13 PM

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In Reply To

HDV is useful even without HD delivery, since you can make widescreen SD DVDs which look better than what's possible with most DV cameras. Plus for customers who can afford HD delivery, you can finally deliver quality close to what's recorded by the camera - something we never had with DV.

I have a quick question for you... or whoever wants to respond. When I go HD, will my Sony DSR-11 SD tape deck be able to play (capture) tapes recorded with a Z1 (or oother HD camera)? I assume the answer is yes, only if I record in SD. So everyone that has or is in the process of going to HD is either having to play (capture) their HD footage using their camera, or they are having to also purchase an HD deck.

I know that question sounds ... well elementary, but I'm probably not going to be recroding in HD for a while anyway. I simply need to start switching out my old VX2000 & VX2100 cams, and I can't see putting money back into a new SD camera. So what are all you guys/gals doing, using your camcorders as decks also? If so, aren't you afraid of the wear and tear on them?
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KevinShaw
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Sep 12, 2007, 11:30 PM

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Ron: if you record in DV mode on an HDV camera those tapes should play on any standard DV deck, and the only issue might be how widescreen footage gets handled and captured. (Or you can record standard 4:3 DV to avoid that problem too.) As far as HDV tapes are concerned, I use my Sony HC1 for all playback and capture and that only cost me about $1300 - or much less than a typical deck. There are similar inexpensive cameras in the Canon HDV line, but not so for JVC. If you buy the Panasonic HVX200 or Sony EX1 you just use a laptop computer or separate card reader to transfer the footage to your editing system.

RustyB
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Sep 14, 2007, 4:33 AM

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In Reply To

....the only issue might be how widescreen footage gets handled and captured.....

Shouldn't have any problem. 16:9 DV footage is standard DV footage, the camera just records it as "anamorphic" widescreen, so it will playback properly on any MiniDV camera. Just make sure your NLE and DVD authoring process is set to handle it properly, or it will cause major problems.

Since I don't offer to deliver weddings in fledgling HD optical disc formats, and don't have the time or cash for computer upgrades or astronomic render times, I typically shoot in 16:9 DV with HDV cameras. No point in all that downconverting business if it's going on SD DVD...might as well let the camera do it as you shoot! But, if you're like me and like 16:9, a native 16:9 camera is cool if you have the money to blow on it.

the People's Video Collective blog
wedding video and the means of production

KevinShaw
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Sep 14, 2007, 2:32 PM

Post #12 of 22 (3778 views)
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In Reply To

16:9 DV footage is standard DV footage, the camera just records it as "anamorphic" widescreen, so it will playback properly on any MiniDV camera. Just make sure your NLE and DVD authoring process is set to handle it properly, or it will cause major problems.

Well said. The trick is making sure your editing, rendering and authoring processes are all set properly for widescreen video, otherwise you'll end up with botched aspect ratios somewhere along the line.

In Reply To

I typically shoot in 16:9 DV with HDV cameras. No point in all that downconverting business if it's going on SD DVD...might as well let the camera do it as you shoot!

I've been back and forth on this point myself, but now that proper HD delivery is finally becoming a reality I'm looking forward to shooting, editing and delivering in HD for more projects. Plus shooting and editing in HD allows you to pull better frame grabs for things like DVD artwork, which is a minor but useful benefit. As far as rendering times are concerned, I'm finding that generating HDV 1080i output from an HD project only takes about two minutes per minute of timeline in Edius, which is less time than some people are spending rendering SD.

We're finally at the point where HD production and delivery is a realistic option for independent producers with a little extra money to spend, so it shouldn't be long now before this starts to become commonplace. I realize some of us having been predicting this for quite a while now so it's starting to sound like the proverbial boy crying wolf, but here we are with the wolf right outside the door. SD delivery will still be the norm for most customers for a while yet, but we're on the cusp of the HD delivery transition as we speak.

Ron Priest
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Sep 15, 2007, 1:32 AM

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So, When I purchase my first HD camera (most likely it will be an FX or a Z1) I will still be using my VX2000 and VX2100 cams along with the HD cam until I can replace all cams with HD. Would it be able to shoot in 16:9 DV with the HDV cam and shoot in 16:9 letterbox with the VX cams, and will it all look the same and edit the same on the timeline? Since I edit with Premiere Pro and Matrox x100 card, I don't have the capability to capture in HDV anyway, so down converting really isn't an option for me correct? I have to transition one item at a time, first the cameras, then the comuter and software.
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RustyB
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Sep 15, 2007, 3:19 AM

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...Would it be able to shoot in 16:9 DV with the HDV cam and shoot in 16:9 letterbox with the VX cams, and will it all look the same and edit the same on the timeline? ....

For sure, just put the Z1 in DV mode(great camera, BTW, despite the fact it doesn't shoot 24p...I just lower the shutter speed to 1/30 to help rid the greasy home video 60i look...but still a very practical wedding camera which I use for most every shoot). It should default to 16:9 mode; I think you have to manually switch it to 4:3 if you want that, even in DV mode.

Don't fret about putting your VX cams in "wide mode". Some people will say it looks bad, but I guarantee you I could post some samples and you couldn't tell the difference. (In fact, I've posted some test results I got from comparing different modes. I've made many hundreds of wedding videos with 4:3 DV cams in 16:9 mode. I started shooting widescreen as soon as Sony 8mm video HandyCams had it as an option. Sly

I don't know about your NLE, since I only know how to use Vegas, but nothing should ever be "letterboxed". The cameras should be in 16:9....no black bars anywhere..except on the camera LCD. Capture anamorphic 16:9, edit 16:9, render 16:9, and author 16:9 DVD. The only time letterboxing should be introduced, is when the client's DVD player is playing back on a 4:3 TV. But that's not your concern...it's the clients'. Aspect ratios are a nightmare that won't be going away for MANY years. I despise watching TV at my friends' house who has a 16:9 HDTV and HD cable. Laugh

Good luck!

the People's Video Collective blog
wedding video and the means of production

RustyB
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Sep 15, 2007, 3:32 AM

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Here's a recent wedding shot with the Z1U in DV mode, 16:9.

It's LONG, like 15 minutes or so, so the compression is high/resolution is low. Twice as long as my normal highlights clips.

No color adjustments done at all (render times must be kept to a minimum with my budget), except for a slight S-Curve, and B&W segments, and more slo-mo than I like to admit to. Tongue

Balcony cam (if it even appears in the clip) was the Canon Elura 100 ($300), native 16:9 cam.

Anyways, not postin' because it's great, just because it's the cheap wedding video I just finished, and was shot with a Z1...

Z1U Wedding Highlights

the People's Video Collective blog
wedding video and the means of production

Ron Priest
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Sep 15, 2007, 10:09 AM

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In Reply To

Don't fret about putting your VX cams in "wide mode". Some people will say it looks bad, but I guarantee you I could post some samples and you couldn't tell the difference. (In fact, I've posted some test results I got from comparing different modes. I've made many hundreds of wedding videos with 4:3 DV cams in 16:9 mode. I started shooting widescreen as soon as Sony 8mm video HandyCams had it as an option. Sly

Good luck!

Well thanks for the tips there Rusty, and thanks for posting the clip.

I have never ever shot is 16:9 before. I guess I need to start doing it. Do you ask your clients if they want 16:9 mode vs 4:3? So then, if I shoot, edit, and deliver in 16:9 using my SD cams, they will not show up leterbox on a HD TV and the picture is not stretched, or other wise distorted?

Anybody else out there eidt shoot and edit in 16:9 with their Matrox x100 card?
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KevinShaw
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Sep 16, 2007, 7:33 PM

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In Reply To

Don't fret about putting your VX cams in "wide mode". Some people will say it looks bad, but I guarantee you I could post some samples and you couldn't tell the difference.

That hasn't been my experience in testing widescreen output options from 4:3 DV cameras - how about posting some comparison clips? A few seconds of widescreen DV from the VX2100 and the same scene from the FX1 would be good, or render out to Windows Media at 848x480 resolution at ~4 Mbps or so.

RustyB
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Sep 16, 2007, 8:18 PM

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In Reply To

Don't fret about putting your VX cams in "wide mode". Some people will say it looks bad, but I guarantee you I could post some samples and you couldn't tell the difference.

If only I actually still owned a video camera. Laugh

j/k, I could capture a couple of old tapes from different weddings, but that wouldn't be much of a comparison. I do, however, have 100's of wedding standard DVD's sitting on the shelf, shot with all sorts of different native 16:9 and native 4:3, shot in both HDV and SD, and watching them I can't remember which camera was used. By the time it's rendered out to MPG and burned to DVD, the difference is much less perceptible...especially when watched letterboxed on a SD 4:3 TV. Even MORE less percetible if the video was shot in anything less than perfect lighting conditions.

IMHO, it all boils down to what the clients pay for, and what falls in your budget! I much prefer shooting in native 16:9, and even more in native 16:9 24p, but every unnecessary cost in my business comes straight out of my paycheck, so I'm willing to make compromises. Tongue

the People's Video Collective blog
wedding video and the means of production

RustyB
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Sep 16, 2007, 8:33 PM

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....Do you ask your clients if they want 16:9 mode vs 4:3? So then, if I shoot, edit, and deliver in 16:9 using my SD cams, they will not show up leterbox on a HD TV and the picture is not stretched, or other wise distorted? ...

My clients don't ask about aspect ratios, or HD, at all. I don't give them the option...my contract states that their video will be 16:9 on standard def DVD-R. It's not that I wouldn't shoot 4:3 if they asked, but asking every client their preference would turn into a nightmare, to say the least.

All standard definition video, 16:9 or 4:3, has to be "stretched" to fill an HD TV. But, shooting 16:9 will at least mean it will be the correct aspect ratio. Now, actually having clients that understand aspect ratios, and know how to adjust for each program they watch, is a whole different story. Everyone I know with an HD TV watches everything stretched or distorted in some fashion...it's really irritating. It's like going to the electronics store, and seeing the video on every single TV incorrectly displayed. This is a problem that won't be going away very soon.

Content makes up for a lot. Just got this email from the MOB and FOB from the video clip posted above, shot with the Z1 in 16:9 DV mode, to toot my own horn:

Quote

Dear Rusty,
We received A... and J.....'s DVD and have watched it over and over. What an awesome job!! Your editing was fabulous. The way you synchronize the lyrics with pictures is incredible. The pictures on the disk and the case were a very nice touch. You definitely captured a moment in time that we will treasure forever. Thank you so much for your professionalism! We will be sure to recommend you. S.... and F...... .....

P.S.
We would like and additional 10 additional DVDs and one VHS tape to give as gifts. Could you please let us know what the cost would be? Thanks again!

I can't wait for J..... and A...... to see it. They will be blown away!

the People's Video Collective blog
wedding video and the means of production

Ron Priest
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Sep 16, 2007, 8:59 PM

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In Reply To

All standard definition video, 16:9 or 4:3, has to be "stretched" to fill an HD TV. But, shooting 16:9 will at least mean it will be the correct aspect ratio. Now, actually having clients
Content makes up for a lot. Just got this email from the MOB and FOB from the video clip posted above, shot with the Z1 in 16:9 DV mode, to toot my own horn:

It's always nice to get calls, or emails like that isn't it? It's what keeps us going I think. I did a test today with 16:1 using my VX2100. I was able to successfully capture and edit it in a widescreen mode using Matrox project inside Adobe Premiere 2.0. I then exported to disk the M2V file for Encore which handeled it just fine. (Funny Encore disn't ask me the screen ratio, it just knew I guess.) I created a quick DVD and it played just as you said on my 4:3 TV in Letterbox. Playing that DVD on my computer show it in the proper ratio. I don't have an HD tv to test this DVD to see if it plays full screen, but I'll take your word for it. Sounds like you've done it evnough to know. The only thing that I actually need a HDTV for is to view the video on a TV whiile editing. Again I use the Matrox x100 card with PPro. The aspect ratio if fine on my computer monitor, but the realtime output to my 4:3 TV is squishing the picture and displaying full screen on the TV. I would assume if I had that real time Matrox output connected to a HD TV it would show full screen without squishing it. I've been looking for a reason to buy an HDTV, I guess I've found one. But first, I need to buy some cameras. Thanks Rusty.
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KevinShaw
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Sep 16, 2007, 9:27 PM

Post #21 of 22 (3641 views)
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In Reply To

By the time it's rendered out to MPG and burned to DVD, the difference is much less perceptible...especially when watched letterboxed on a SD 4:3 TV.

Certainly when watched letterboxed on a standard SDTV it would be hard to tell the difference, but my concern would be how things look on a good HDTV. When I tested all the most popular HD and DV cameras last February my conclusion was that none of the 4:3 DV cameras could produce decent widescreen footage without an anamorphic lens adapter - but the DVX100 with an anamorphic adapter did fine. In any case, my recommendation is not to run 4:3 cameras in widescreen mode because then you can't crop the footage back to 4:3 again if you find out you need to do that - better to run them in 4:3 mode and crop to widescreen format in post. My two cents...

RustyB
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Sep 16, 2007, 9:36 PM

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....It's always nice to get calls, or emails like that isn't it? It's what keeps us going I think.....

For sure...it definitely ain't the money. Laugh

We get so involved with the technical issues of video, and keeping up with the jones, those little emails help to bring your attention back to where it's important...and keep working.

It's so great to have customers that appreciate and value video. MOB just emailed me again, about the B&G...

Quote

FYI:
A........ went back to California this morning. She called a little while ago to tell us that she and J...... were watching the DVD. Her exact words were " this is going to take us all night to watch, we have to keep pausing it because we are bawling our eyes out..it's awesome!!" It sounds like they are enjoying it as much as F...... and I did. Thanks again

It's also cool to see the price of HDTV's getting so low. I trek'd out to the 24-hour WalMart late one night this weekend late, to pick up a wrench to install a new toilette handle. And of course, had to check out the TV's for sale. Cool

Lot's of 46"+ LCD's well under $2000! If I can get a couple of more years out of my SD 4:3 TV, then maybe they'll be down in my price range....not to mention the cost of a new HD DVR. Crazy

the People's Video Collective blog
wedding video and the means of production