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videoguys
User

Feb 18, 2005, 10:51 AM

Post #26 of 101 (2386 views)
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Re: [John K.] hdv wedding video [In reply to] Can't Post

Excellent post John. I should have said that I was assuming the work was top notch. Shlocky video is still shlock, no matter what format you shoot on.

I would add that in the hands of an artist - you guys who really know how to do this right - I do think HD & HDV will allow you to push your craft even further. And perhaps HD could be the added "juice" you guys need in order to have all concerned appreciate the work you are doing - and pay for it.

I still think HD & HDV will have a big impact in Wedding Videography, but I'm realizing now that it's not going to be automatic. It's going to take a lot of marketing and saleswork on your part to get the bride to buy into it. I'm confident you guys will find a way to make HDV work for you.

Gary
Videoguys Event Videography page
Videoguys.com 800 323-2325
We are the Digital Video editing & DVD production experts!
Use Coupon Code # VU5OFF and save 5% on any order!!


KevinShaw
Veteran

Feb 18, 2005, 10:54 AM

Post #27 of 101 (2386 views)
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Re: [videoguys] hdv wedding video [In reply to] Can't Post

Gary: as things stand now I don't think most couples are going to be willing to pay too much more for HD wedding videos, but the ones who can afford to pay more will--and everyone doing high-end wedding videos will need to shift to HD in order to stay in business. Within a year or so I'd expect anyone paying top dollar for a wedding video to ask whether they can get it in HD, and in two years I expect it to be a very common feature. I think you may be right that this is one of the few aspects of a wedding where the groom might consider paying more to make use of the latest technology, but when it comes to reconciling wedding budgets I don't see video being high on most people's priority list.

Whether a price differential for HD wedding videos will survive over time remains to be seen, but I'd guess it will for at least 2-3 years or so. Even with the new lower-cost cameras it costs a lot of money to produce in HD, so that investment has to be recouped somehow.


Laura K
Veteran


Feb 18, 2005, 11:02 AM

Post #28 of 101 (2382 views)
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Re: [videoguys] hdv wedding video [In reply to] Can't Post

Gary,
I think you are on target, but for the higher end market. I think it's going to completely depend on the income bracket the videographer is catering to. I do think though in 4 to 5 years we will all see a major shift. I can also tell you that even in a rural location such as mine that the TV's I see being delivered are the big HD big screens. So I know it's coming.

I think the right vein to go is computer equipment first, cameras second. I believe it will be a lot less frustrating this way. I'm starting to look at what is the biggest and badest on the market as far as CPU power and watching Itel closely.

L


"... it seems that if you're passionate about something, it freaks people out. You're considered bizarre or eccentric. To me, it just means you know who you are." - director Tim Burton


Today's mighty oak is just yesterday's nut that held its ground.


KevinShaw
Veteran

Feb 18, 2005, 11:20 AM

Post #29 of 101 (2369 views)
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Re: [Laura K] hdv wedding video [In reply to] Can't Post

"I think the right vein to go is computer equipment first, cameras second. I believe it will be a lot less frustrating this way. "

Laura: I'm tempted to say it should be the other way around, but a lot depends on exactly how you plan to approach the HD production process. If you're getting ready to buy an HD/HDV camera soon then you may have to get a fast new computer in order to be able to edit the footage effectively, but you can apparently squeak by with current computers depending on what editing solution you have in mind. You could even buy an HDV camera but edit in SD for now using your existing editing setup, but that's no fun. A better compromise is to buy the camera, limp along with a slow computer for a few months while customer interest in HD develops, then buy a really fast computer when the next generation of processors comes out later this year. Today's best computers can barely handle HDV effectively, so dropping a lot of money on a new computer just before significant hardware advances are released seems rather risky. On the other hand, if you have customers who want HD videos right now, then having the best setup you can afford to deliver that could be useful. It's all a question of timing...


szerangue
Veteran


Feb 18, 2005, 12:19 PM

Post #30 of 101 (2354 views)
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Re: [RustyB] hdv wedding video [In reply to] Can't Post

This season I will be shooting entirely in HDV utilzing my FX1 and my Z1U. All will be captured in HDV, edited in HD, and encoded to DVD. I do not even try to sell the HDV to my clients. I tell them I am shooting in HDV, the end product will be better than DV to DVD, but will still be DVD. I let them know that they have the option to upgrade their movie to HD DVD when it becomes available. But I do not tell any of my clients that they will be getting an HD DVD. If they really want HD and are willing to pay for it, I will sell them the HD .wmv file burned on a standard DVD and they can play it on the Linkplayer2 that comes with the package, knowing that the Linkplayer2 or enabled computers are the only devices that will play the file.

I have had no takers on the HDV package to date.
Miracle Pictures
"If it's a good picture, it's a Miracle!"

"Life Productions, coming out of the dark, into the light"
4EVER GROUP AFFILIATE


Morris
Enthusiast


Feb 18, 2005, 2:41 PM

Post #31 of 101 (2341 views)
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Re: [videoguys] hdv wedding video [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Jumping in here to dig a little deeper. Lets fast forward to the Spring on 2006. You have Blu-Ray and/or HD DVD burners and players readily available.


Based on what DSE said Sony told him, consumer access to Blu-ray is "at least" 16 months out. That would put it in the June 2006 timeframe which is about the same as your estimate. Then there would be the time to see whether HD-DVD or Blu-ray wins the format race. If all of that comes to pass, we might be looking at Jan/Feb 2007 or 2 years from now at the earliest.



Quote
One of the factors I see here is the groom becoming more involved with the decision to go HD. He just registered for a 50 inch plasma HD screen, or perhaps he already has one and its one of his prize posessions. He "understands" the value of HD and he can be pitched on it. Then the demand for HD weddings spreads viraly as grooms and brides start bragging about and showing off their HD wedding.


Do the "bulk" of newly weds have the money to invest in multi-thousand dollar 50 in plasma HD screens? Or will they be tapped out by their wedding costs, saving to buy their home, or planing to have a child or one already in the hangar? Early adopters of HD will be paying premium prices for their displays and the new HD capable players and I'm not sure whether the non-wealthy newly weds will be able to afford them. Couples already married for a few years might invest in HD since they are already somewhat settled but that is well past their wedding video. But then again, many young folks do max out their credit card"s" on "gotta have it now" things.....Smile

Morris


Laura K
Veteran


Feb 18, 2005, 6:20 PM

Post #32 of 101 (2328 views)
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Re: [kwshaw1] hdv wedding video [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
A better compromise is to buy the camera, limp along with a slow computer for a few months while customer interest in HD develops, then buy a really fast computer when the next generation of processors comes out later this year. Today's best computers can barely handle HDV effectively, so dropping a lot of money on a new computer just before significant hardware advances are released seems rather risky.



I don't agree. I hate pokey computers and the last thing I want to do is be waiting on a video. Re-read, I said I am watching what comes from Intel. Things are popping again fast and furious. I think everyone would be wise to bring themselves up to date on the latest and greatest.

Like a tiger, hide and watch and pounce when the time is right.

I can't limp along like you say, I dont' have the time.
L


"... it seems that if you're passionate about something, it freaks people out. You're considered bizarre or eccentric. To me, it just means you know who you are." - director Tim Burton


Today's mighty oak is just yesterday's nut that held its ground.


KevinShaw
Veteran

Feb 18, 2005, 11:35 PM

Post #33 of 101 (2304 views)
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Re: [Laura K] hdv wedding video [In reply to] Can't Post

Laura: I guess we basically agree that there are good things coming shortly for computers which are worth waiting for, and then it's just a question of when you want to buy the camera. But if you want to start offering HD video today you have to have the camera, so you'd be buying (or renting) that a little before the computer. Like I said, it's all about timing.


AEMIKEA
User

Feb 19, 2005, 12:41 AM

Post #34 of 101 (2294 views)
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Re: [kwshaw1] hdv wedding video [In reply to] Can't Post

OK, just exported an HDV wedding to DVD and It definately looks better than dv to DVD, don't have the stair stepping that I would normally get with certain dv shots, and it just looks better. Of course this is all subjective, but I have looked at my footage from the vx's enough to see the difference. And I have an HDV version ready to go for client later, remember, can't go back and shoot it. My clients are well aware of what they will be getting, my DVD's look even better so they don't lose out. (Oh, also encoded it progressive frame and 16x9)


Mike


(This post was edited by AEMIKEA on Feb 19, 2005, 12:43 AM)


Laura K
Veteran


Feb 19, 2005, 1:41 AM

Post #35 of 101 (2280 views)
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Re: [AEMIKEA] hdv wedding video [In reply to] Can't Post

What is your editing set up?
L


"... it seems that if you're passionate about something, it freaks people out. You're considered bizarre or eccentric. To me, it just means you know who you are." - director Tim Burton


Today's mighty oak is just yesterday's nut that held its ground.


AEMIKEA
User

Feb 19, 2005, 2:28 AM

Post #36 of 101 (2275 views)
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Re: [Laura K] hdv wedding video [In reply to] Can't Post

PPRO 1.5 , 3ghz P4, 1gig ram, Nvidia 5500 video card and several 7200rpm harddrives


Mike


DSE
Veteran


Feb 19, 2005, 7:15 PM

Post #37 of 101 (2251 views)
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Re: [AEMIKEA] hdv wedding video [In reply to] Can't Post

Justa couple of comments, since we've just delivered our first corporate piece for general display/delivery to Detroit Diesel.
1. They needed HD because they want footage to be used for future projects as well. (I can see that this doesn't really apply to weddings much)
2. They wanted HD for display, but couldn't think of how to display it for their corporate event.

Our solution was:
Shoot, edit, deliver HD. We bought 2 Avelink players, and output in Windows Media HD. We gave the Avelinks to them as a "bonus" for the job (it was a 22K job, so it was affordable to do)

What you CAN do, is offer one of 3 delivery formats now.
1. WMVHD that can be played on some DVD players.
2. AVC that can be played on a lot of DVD players and quite a few more in the very near future.
3. DVD in SD format as you're already doing, and then later make a phone call to bride and tell her you've got it available in HD-DVD or Blu-Ray if she wants to spend another XXX$$$.

I've been somewhat convinced that the wedding crowd isn't really a good candidate for being on the bleeding edge, but as Gary and others point out...it's coming. It's not a question of *if* but more a question of *when* and potentionall *which one*?

Douglas Spotted Eagle
Author, producer, composer
www.vasst.com
"I enjoy music, long walks at sunset on the beach, and poking dead things with a sharp stick."


Mathew
Veteran

Feb 19, 2005, 7:36 PM

Post #38 of 101 (2249 views)
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Re: [szerangue] hdv wedding video [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
This season I will be shooting entirely in HDV utilzing my FX1 and my Z1U. All will be captured in HDV, edited in HD, and encoded to DVD. I do not even try to sell the HDV to my clients. I tell them I am shooting in HDV, the end product will be better than DV to DVD, but will still be DVD. I let them know that they have the option to upgrade their movie to HD DVD when it becomes available. But I do not tell any of my clients that they will be getting an HD DVD. If they really want HD and are willing to pay for it, I will sell them the HD .wmv file burned on a standard DVD and they can play it on the Linkplayer2 that comes with the package, knowing that the Linkplayer2 or enabled computers are the only devices that will play the file.

I have had no takers on the HDV package to date.



So what you're saying is that you're shooting HDV entirely for yourself.

If you're going to all the hassle of doing everything in HDV then why not just build it into your price by giving them the linkplayer and the WM9 DVD? Advertise yourself as being the only videographer in town offering complete HD production.


szerangue
Veteran


Feb 19, 2005, 7:48 PM

Post #39 of 101 (2246 views)
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Re: [Mathew] hdv wedding video [In reply to] Can't Post

I do have that in my price list, Mathew. That is my highest price package. It comes with the player and the .wmv DVD. What I mean is that I am not pushing that. If someone wants it, I can give it to them. The problem with the Linkplayer is that you really need to understand a little about how this thing works and networks to your computer. It is not without glitches. My thinking is that, if someone really wants it, they can have it, but primarily I am selling an SD wedding on DVD. I don't talk to a ton of brides so I can't say that there is no interest out there. Just the few I have talked to and the few I have booked, it didn't seem to make any difference to them at all that I was shooting in HDV. When I mentioned it, I think they saw it as a plus, but not as a purchasing point.
Miracle Pictures
"If it's a good picture, it's a Miracle!"

"Life Productions, coming out of the dark, into the light"
4EVER GROUP AFFILIATE


Mathew
Veteran

Feb 19, 2005, 8:12 PM

Post #40 of 101 (2240 views)
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Re: [szerangue] hdv wedding video [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
The problem with the Linkplayer is that you really need to understand a little about how this thing works and networks to your computer. It is not without glitches.


I was under the impression that this was a stand alone DVD player like any other Sony, Toshiba, JVC but that it would play WM9 files as well.


Mathew
Veteran

Feb 19, 2005, 8:26 PM

Post #41 of 101 (2235 views)
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Re: [DSE] hdv wedding video [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I've been somewhat convinced that the wedding crowd isn't really a good candidate for being on the bleeding edge....


There you go with that condescending attitude. Unimpressed

Have you ever even commented once on the actual content of any wedding video? Or are you just stuck on the techie side of things?

Back on topic: What do you think of the upcoming Panasonic HD camera?


szerangue
Veteran


Feb 19, 2005, 8:31 PM

Post #42 of 101 (2230 views)
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Re: [Mathew] hdv wedding video [In reply to] Can't Post

Well, you could use it that way for sure. What it has in the back is a component out to the HDTV. You can insert a burned dvd with your .wmv file on it and it will play on your HDTV, just like a DVD player. You can also play regular DVDs, mp3s, etc... But it also has a network card in it that will allow you to connect to your computer via a hub. This is really cool because it allows you to access your music, pictures, and videos directly from your networked computer and play them also on your tv. I like the one I have but I don't use it a great deal. The other day I had a couple over and was playing my demo on it for them. When playing a .wmv file on it, its not like a DVD, you don't have menus. So I was fast forwarding to a section of the video and it just hung up. I had to turn it off and reboot it to get it working again. Not a big deal for me but didn't look good for the client. So in that light, I don't push it, I just offer it.
Miracle Pictures
"If it's a good picture, it's a Miracle!"

"Life Productions, coming out of the dark, into the light"
4EVER GROUP AFFILIATE


DSE
Veteran


Feb 19, 2005, 8:33 PM

Post #43 of 101 (2227 views)
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Re: [Mathew] hdv wedding video [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
There you go with that condescending attitude. Unimpressed


Truthfully Mathew, YOU are one of the main reasons I'm convinced that wedding folks aren't ready to make the jump to HDV. How many of your nasty, vitriolic posts would you like me to point you back to telling me that wedding folks aren't ready for HDV?? In my mind originally, HDV was a great thing for the wedding and event industry. But between you, LawfulMan, and John, I've become convinced that you guys are right and I'm wrong about that. But now that I post that I've realized this, I'm the bad guy again with you. Make up your mind in one direction or another, will ya?

I've commented plenty on the content, and have commented plenty on the production and tech side as well.
I don't think anything of the upcoming Panasonic camera, because I've not seen it, so there is nothing to think. I was very anti-HDV until I saw the new Sony's, so I'll avoid looking like a fool again and not have an impression of a camera I've not seen. If they do it as well as they've done the 100a, then they'll have a great cam on their hands. I'm also confident that it will be more money than most folks want to spend overall, but maybe I'm wrong about that, too.

Douglas Spotted Eagle
Author, producer, composer
www.vasst.com
"I enjoy music, long walks at sunset on the beach, and poking dead things with a sharp stick."


Mathew
Veteran

Feb 19, 2005, 8:56 PM

Post #44 of 101 (2223 views)
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Re: [DSE] hdv wedding video [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Truthfully Mathew, YOU are one of the main reasons I'm convinced that wedding folks aren't ready to make the jump to HDV.


Funny, I don't remember commenting in this thread until you made the remark.

Knowing the field better than you I have stated along with others that HDV is currently wrong for wedding and event videographers. We already work with small margins and investing in a new format every two years is not what I deem 'bleeding edge' but more like stupid.

When the format is ready for primetime and we can deliver it to clients without jumping through hoops at a profit then will it be a smart decision.

Until then it's merely idle geek chat.


Mathew
Veteran

Feb 19, 2005, 9:03 PM

Post #45 of 101 (2217 views)
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Re: [szerangue] hdv wedding video [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
So I was fast forwarding to a section of the video and it just hung up. I had to turn it off and reboot it to get it working again. Not a big deal for me but didn't look good for the client. So in that light, I don't push it, I just offer it.


Sounds like you need to put together a highlight reel so you don't have to fast forward.

Whatever way HD is delivered in the future, it will have to have chapters and menus. For me it has become one of my product's selling points.


John K.
Veteran / Moderator


Feb 19, 2005, 9:07 PM

Post #46 of 101 (2216 views)
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Re: [DSE] hdv wedding video [In reply to] Can't Post

Douglas,

With all respect to you and your level of knowledge, the wedding crowd (in general) isn't a good candidate for being on the bleeding edge because we don't get $22,000 per wedding, nor do we have the million dollar budgets of major network shows like JAG.

It just seems a stretch to expect wedding videographers, who in general, complain about how they already don't get paid enough for their work and the hours they spend editing - for them "us" to run out and buy HD stuff now (in its earliest stages), which will further lesson one's profitability.

Again, network TV is one thing (which I know is your area of expertise) - but do you think if JAG were paid $2,000 a show, they would upgrade all the cameras and equipment? And, if they had to hand deliver their show only, for private viewing, to one young couple and their parents (notice how small their audience would be now), would it make sense to stick money into HD now? What benefit would that bring to the videographer who is already complaining about how they charge too little or spend too much time already with editing?

Whether or not a videographer upgrades now to HD or not, to me, has nothing at all to do with them being or not being on the cutting edge. I would call them SMART for carefully evaluating their situation and making their decision based on "what makes business sense" and "just what exactly do their clients expect". Again, for some, now might be the right time to get in on HD and reap some benefits. For those not doing it now and waiting a few more years, I think they are just as cutting edge for knowing when it’s the right time for them and knowing how to maximize their profits and enter the whole HD world when they see it as a benefit - not something to enter because Sony or the trade mags say they should.

The later phone call stuff I think is over-hyped - the limited amount anyone would make from calling a bride in a year, or two years, or more to transfer their video to HD would be minimal, compared to what the videographer would be spending now to get into HD. Further, I know I don't want to be bothered in a few years making more copies from a wedding done a few years ago - that's the last thing I want. Most wedding videographers I know want to be completely done with that particular wedding once the couple picks it up.

This has nothing to do with your response Douglas, but perhaps you would agree with me: I don't see WEVA publishing any advice to videographers (esp. the new, young, full-timers) about setting up a retirement account and planning for their future - and perhaps drop a note of caution that one shouldn't keep sticking every cent of profit into new cameras and equipment (because it is so darn tempting). How about an article about how to maximize profit, or how one can achieve a more profitable business and maintain longevity in this field? But if WEVA or other trade mags did this great service to videographers, than I'm sure they would loose their paid advertisers. I don't think it should come as any surprise that the trade mags are all going to say HD is here now and bigger than ever and everyone wants it. It makes business sense for them to say that - so, we too, as videographers, should do want makes business sense for us.

I have no doubt someday it will make sense for me to go HD; for some, now might be perfect. I would say though, for many videographers, waiting till our markets are ready and asking for it and other fixes are in order, makes more sense.

Anyway, wanted to share my side of the fence with you, the $2K+, but not over $3K per wedding vs. what's first happening in the world of million dollar major network studio productions that you're in touch with. Keep in mind too, with the big dollar stuff, the infrastructure is in place, or getting there. With wedding videography, not all couples have the right TV (in fact, I’d say most don’t), their parents most likely don't have anything at all and there isn't even a HD-DVD player released yet (which means, when it is released, that will take a good year or two to find its market). I have no doubt that the current DVD world will enjoy several more healthy years.

Take care, and thank you for your sharing your knowledge on all of this stuff and what is happening in the world of big dollar video productions, which I’m beginning to learn more about. I hope I didn’t come across like a grumpy as* on this post, I appreciate your input (time) and answers you provide on these issues.

Take care,

John




Lou Bruno
User


Feb 19, 2005, 9:07 PM

Post #47 of 101 (2216 views)
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Re: [John K.] hdv wedding video [In reply to] Can't Post

I will keep it short:


If it can't be delivered, it is worthless at this point.


DSE
Veteran


Feb 19, 2005, 9:16 PM

Post #48 of 101 (2210 views)
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Re: [John K.] hdv wedding video [In reply to] Can't Post

John,
I've come to understand the why's and wherefores of why some wedding/event videographers feel it's not a good time, business decision, opportunity, delivery, whatever....to move to HDV right now. Betwen you and Mathew, it's been made painfully clear. I agree with that.
My problem now is that for some reason, the fact that I've come to agree with that is seen as condescension. There's just no winning in this situation. I say it's a good thing and try to explain the benefits of the format, I'm chopped off at the knees by someone who's never touched the format. I eventually say I agree, it's not the best thing, I'm accused of being condescending. Either way, it's a losing battle. Whether you like it or not, at some point, you'll be having to move to a higher format. If you think delivering HD is difficult now, that's very understandable. For the mass self-production, it IS difficult to deliver. So it's not necessarily ideal for the wedding videographer. Fine. It's not financially sensible for me to buy a Viper either, so I've not bought one. I couldn't afford the mortgage on it in my specific region anyway. There are no demands for this camera here. Since I see and agree with that being the same position many wedding folks are in, I'm not sure why I'm being brought to task by either of you.
What's the point? Apparently the point is to disagree just for the sake of disagreeing because once I agree to your disagreement, someone disagrees again.
Sheesh!

Douglas Spotted Eagle
Author, producer, composer
www.vasst.com
"I enjoy music, long walks at sunset on the beach, and poking dead things with a sharp stick."


szerangue
Veteran


Feb 19, 2005, 10:08 PM

Post #49 of 101 (2593 views)
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Re: [Mathew] hdv wedding video [In reply to] Can't Post

Mathew, I can see where you misunderstood my post. I do not offer a HDV package. I offer a package that includes the wedding encoding to HD .wmv burned on a DVD along with the Linkplayer2 to play it. This is in addition to the my existing DVD (SD) package, its an add on. As I stated, the reason I dont push it is because I truly do not believe that this AveL Linkplayer2 machine is not without problems (although it has worked pretty good for me since I've purchased it)
Miracle Pictures
"If it's a good picture, it's a Miracle!"

"Life Productions, coming out of the dark, into the light"
4EVER GROUP AFFILIATE


videobear
Veteran


Feb 19, 2005, 10:30 PM

Post #50 of 101 (2587 views)
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Re: [DSE] hdv wedding video [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
My problem now is that for some reason, the fact that I've come to agree with that is seen as condescension. There's just no winning in this situation.


Ain't it the truth, Spot? Some days you just can't win. Tongue

Anyway, despite the fact that there are (at present) good reasons for event videographers to NOT jump into HDV, even those of us who are sticking with DV for now are still very interested in the new format and developments. Many thanks for the info you've provided!

I, for one, have never seen your posts as "condescending" to the event videographer. Some folks who, like yourself, work in the broadcast and corporate arenas look down their noses at the "low budget" event crowd, so maybe we tend to be a little sensitive and defensive.




Regards,
Doug Graham
Panda Productions

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