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Brackish
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Feb 19, 2005, 11:42 PM

Post #51 of 101 (2829 views)
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szerangue
Veteran

Feb 20, 2005, 12:54 AM

Post #52 of 101 (2823 views)
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Re: [Brackish] hdv wedding video [In reply to]	Can't Post

Brack,
The default is 8000. I just took a clip and encoded at 8000 and 12000 and did not see a noticable difference.
Miracle Pictures
"If it's a good picture, it's a Miracle!"

"Life Productions, coming out of the dark, into the light"
4EVER GROUP AFFILIATE

Brackish
Veteran

Feb 20, 2005, 1:10 AM

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John K.
Veteran / Moderator

Feb 20, 2005, 1:37 AM

Post #54 of 101 (2809 views)
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Re: [DSE] hdv wedding video [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hey Douglas,

I haven't found any of your posts offensive whatsoever and I hope you never interpreted any of my comments as an attack. I think sharing different opinions and the pros and cons of HD are a benefit to all. Your background is quite different from mine, so you have a totally different viewpoint and certainly the same could be said when even comparing one videographer on these boards to another; videographers may have different target markets, some are part-time, others full-time, etc. and it's these factors and more that certainly shape one's opinions about all of this. I think reading some of the different opinions is an asset, as some new ideas and thoughts may be introduced that may cause one to change their viewpoint, or at least understand where others are coming from.

John

videoguys
User

Feb 20, 2005, 5:54 AM

Post #55 of 101 (2793 views)
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Re: [John K.] hdv wedding video [In reply to]	Can't Post

Guys, I'm learning a lot about how difficult event videography can be as a business. In todays economy, I'd say this is true for most entrepreneurs. It makes the decision about when and how much to invest in a new technology very tricky. Most importantly, since there isn't an easy way to deliver this HD content to your customers yet, it's clear we are ahead of the curve. But HD is coming and there is no turning back at this point.

So, I ask you this:
If your competition started using the fact that they offer an HD package as a marketing tool to gain marketshare, what do you do? Lets say he/she does a pretty good job of shooting & editing. Not as good as you, but certainly a competitor you respect. Do you know accerate your timing to go into HD? Do you downplay a technology that you know down the road is your future? Do you lower your prices?

Gary
Videoguys.com 800 323-2325
We are the Digital Video editing & DVD production experts!
Use Coupon Code # VU5OFF and save 5% on any order!!

Morris
Enthusiast

Feb 20, 2005, 8:35 AM

Post #56 of 101 (2576 views)
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Re: [videoguys] hdv wedding video [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

So, I ask you this:
If your competition started using the fact that they offer an HD package as a marketing tool to gain marketshare, what do you do? Lets say he/she does a pretty good job of shooting & editing. Not as good as you, but certainly a competitor you respect. Do you know accerate your timing to go into HD? Do you downplay a technology that you know down the road is your future? Do you lower your prices?

With a prediction that it might be 2 YEARS from now before HD players become a factor, anyone who offers HD now will be in for quite a task and expense.

1. Buy 2 Sony HDV cameras. (MUST have a backup) Shoot in HDV with the possibility of up to 1/2 second of freezing or mosaics due to MPEG2 dropouts. Use expensive HDV tapes to minimize that.

2. Assuming he/she edits in HD now and supplies SD video on DVDs ---
- Buy the most powerful dual CPU system available.
- Run RAID hard drives with double the risk of HDD failure.
- Buy triple the amount of hard drives if transcoding during capture to an avi format for editing.
- Buy new editing software which I understand is not even workable on Final Cut Pro yet.
- Have extremely long render times for effects like slowmo, soft focus and other clip based effects.
- Probably limited to 2 video streams for the forseeable future for practical purposes.
- Replicate their entire library of Digital Juice and similar effects and stock footage with expensive HD versions.
- Reshoot all environmental footage in HDV to replace footage that they shot themselves in DV.
- Early adopter problems with all steps in editing.
- Find a way to record the finished product on HDV tape which I heard does not work in Premiere or Final Cut yet.
- Do a very long render on the ENTIRE video (2 hours in some cases) to convert to standard definition 4:3. That will involve unconditionally croping off sides, or pan & scan, or letterbox.
- Another long render to MPEG2 for the DVD.
- Repeat much of above for the photo montage.
- Forget about same day edits to show at the reception. (loss of business if they are doing it now)
- Later on when HD players are available, re-render the entire production for the HD DVD. Reauthor for the HD DVD.

3. If they do not edit in HD now and edit in DV:
- ALL FOOTAGE will have to be captured and then down converted to 4:3 SD in the computer before editing. This will take much time and tie up the computer.
- Or they can make all edit decisions before capturing and capture only what they will use. This will take much time with stop and go capture compared to single pass capture of the entire tapes.
- Or they can let the camera do the down conversion during capture but many have said that conversion in the computer gives better results than the camera conversion.
- When doing the steps above they will have to decide whether to crop the 16:9 unconditionally to 4:3, or pan & scan to 4:3, or letterbox to 4:3.
- Perform all of the DV editing and DVD authoring that everyone does now.
- When HD players are available, they will have to re-capture and re-edit the entire production in HD. Then render HD to MPEG2 (or whatever format is used) which will take a lot longer to render than DV as we know it today. Re-author the HD DVD.

4. Buy a very expensive HD burner and blank discs. Hope there are no coasters.

If the above seems long, that is the "quite a task" that I referred to earlier. If one's competition is willing to do all of the above without "substantially" raising their package price I wonder how long they can stay in business for the 2 year waiting period. And I hope they have the perserverance to re-author all of their productions for the HD DVD if they took option-2, or RE-EDIT and re-author all of their productions in HD if they take option-3. I think many videographers would feel sick with either thought.

Then how many couples will be willing to pay the "substantially" higher prices NOW only to get their video on a SD DVD now with a "promise" to convert it to HD later. How will they know the videographer will still be in business 2 or more years from now?

More power to those who are willing to do it. I think they will lose a lot of money. (No offense to the early adopters, especially when they already stated that they went in with their eyes open.)
Morris

(This post was edited by Morris on Feb 20, 2005, 8:41 AM)

szerangue
Veteran

Feb 20, 2005, 8:37 AM

Post #57 of 101 (2575 views)
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Re: [Brackish] hdv wedding video [In reply to]	Can't Post

The AveL Linkplayer2 is around $250, if I remember correctly. It looks like a standard desktop DVD player. It has component out in the back and a network card for connecting to a hub to link it to your computer. It plays DVDs as any other dvd player, but it also plays mp3s, pictures, and videos from your computer. It will play any multimedia burned to cd or dvd including HD .wmv files.
I am shooting at 1/60. This weekend I am putting together a little clip I am shooting for my wife who is out of town. I am now waiting for it to start raining a little bit harder so that I can shoot the rain in 1/1000 or maybe 1/10000 for an effect. I have been shooting some clips of my wife on our journey we are now going through to try to have a baby and yesterday, while adjusting the shutter speed, I noticed that I had it set at 1/250. I have been shooting pictures of my wife at 250 for the last couple of days. I uploaded the footage and it looked fine just playing it back at normal speed. But for standard shooting, I am using 60.

By the way, there is a WEVA HDV board that discusses issues and questions videographers are facing with this new medium. There people like Lawful and Mathew on those boards too! and yes, WEVA members on those boards also ask them to move on and create an anti-HDV board.
Miracle Pictures
"If it's a good picture, it's a Miracle!"

"Life Productions, coming out of the dark, into the light"
4EVER GROUP AFFILIATE

DSE
Veteran

Feb 20, 2005, 10:13 AM

Post #58 of 101 (2563 views)
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Re: [Morris] hdv wedding video [In reply to]	Can't Post

Geez Morris,
With posts like this I should hire you to write books for VASST. Wink

HD DVD players are NOT two years out. Try two months out. AVC and MS capable HD players are coming in by the boatload this summer. There are all sorts of MPEG-4 decoder chips in the stream now. If MS can get SMPTE to accept VC-1 as a standard, you'll see that by mid summer at the latest. This was one of the big buzzes at CES this year. There is currently the Avelink/IoData device too.

Regarding the rest of your post...well.....most of that's just plain fantasyland. HDV can be edited on a laptop without a whole lotta difference from DV as long as the proc is faster than 2.6MHz. HDV can be edited on a desktop for very little different experience than DV as long as it's 2.6MHz or faster. Do you get better performance with more RAM? Sure. Do you get better performance with faster drives? Nope. DV is 25Mbps. So is HDV, but when used with a DI, it climbs to about 28Mbps.
Same burners.
Same DVD Authoring tools for the most part.

With all the HDV owners that have been out there since October, I've yet to hear of one dropout. It's a POTENTIAL problem. One that WILL happen to someone. But it hasn't. I could make a list like yours about any format. Including Digibeta, or even HDCam.
Look, if you want to stand behind your current shooting formula, that's great. No sweat. It's your income. It's how YOU want to shoot. But at the same time, don't make terribly uninformed statements against the format.

No, the sky is NOT falling.

Douglas Spotted Eagle
Author, producer, composer
www.vasst.com
"I enjoy music, long walks at sunset on the beach, and poking dead things with a sharp stick."

(This post was edited by DSE on Feb 20, 2005, 10:20 AM)

John K.
Veteran / Moderator

Feb 20, 2005, 10:23 AM

Post #59 of 101 (2557 views)
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Re: [szerangue] hdv wedding video [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hey Shane,

Perhaps you didn't intend to come across this way, but it sounds a little bit like your hinting that those not going HD now, or those questioning it right now, are anti-HD. I know I've said it in many of my posts that I WILL go HD when my market is ready and it makes business sense. I don't know of anyone who said they would never go HD whatsoever. It all comes down to timing and when others can justify getting in and can see HD as being a benefit. In my case, as stated before, I'll explore the option of purchasing the stuff in a few years, I'm in no rush and SD and regular DVD are very alive and well in my market area and I know they both will be around for several years yet.

By nature, I'm not one to go out and buy the first generation of any technology (not just HD) and I'm a big advocate of trying to get people to see the huge value of maximizing your return on investment - it has worked well for me over the years and has allowed me to make a full-time living out of what I enjoy.

I'll close with my often-repeated tag line: that only you know when it's best to purchase new equipment and when to upgrade given your situation. For those not doing so now, they have their reasons - just like you had your reasons that made sense for you to jump in and go HD now.

Take care,

John

(This post was edited by John K. on Feb 20, 2005, 10:27 AM)

szerangue
Veteran

Feb 20, 2005, 11:11 AM

Post #60 of 101 (2538 views)
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Re: [John K.] hdv wedding video [In reply to]	Can't Post

John,
Thanks for asking. I am not saying that videographers who are not jumping on the HDV bandwagon are anti-HDV, just Mathew and Lawfulguy. Although Mathew and I have had some very civil threads concerning this format, I know that those two guys will say anything in a post to discourage anyone from venturing into the HDV world. And its not because they have tried it, its because they have spent apparently lots of time on the DVX forums and have read there that the Sony camera is garbage.

I believe I was the first one on here that has gone totally HDV to say that, if you are counting on the video business to put food on your table and to support your family then you should NOT go into this format at this time if you are already making a living shooting in DV. It is expensive. Be ready to shell out at least $20k (give or take a few grand) but be ready to spend some money. I do not believe you will be able to edit this format on your average editing computer, my opnion based on true life hands on experience, not from a thread I read on a DVX forum.

Can you shoot HDV, edit HDV, have multiple layers of HDV on your timeline, produce a product better than standard DV... today? Yes, you can. And that too is based on true life experience, not something I read on a Sony website.

Does that clear up my position on HDV?
Miracle Pictures
"If it's a good picture, it's a Miracle!"

"Life Productions, coming out of the dark, into the light"
4EVER GROUP AFFILIATE

RustyB
Veteran

Feb 20, 2005, 12:05 PM

Post #61 of 101 (2527 views)
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Re: [szerangue] hdv wedding video [In reply to]	Can't Post

To stay on topic, maybe I could get you thoughts on thus Shane. It's been discussed, but not by anyone that actually uses the camera, like most of the HDV threads:

In this scenario, I want to use HDV cameras to deliver a SD DVD. Realistically, what would be the differeces in quality:

1. Shoot in HDV; Capture HDV; Edit HDV; and do the downconversion as the final step before authoring a SD DVD.

2. Shoot in HDV; downconvert WHILE OUTPUTTING FROM CAMERA, and capturing a regular .avi file, and edit as normal.

3. Shoot in DV mode to start with with the FX1/Z1

I would assume that shooting in DV mode would be a waste of the camera, since you're not recording the full potential of the HDV CCD's.

2. If your final destination is SD-DVD, with no future plans to offer that particular EDITED project in an HD format of any kind, would there really be much of a difference between downconverting in-cam while capturing, and downconverting while rendering the final project to .mpg2? You'd be able to use your current editing system with no problems, and would still have the raw footage in HDV, in case you wanted to re-capture in the future to make an HD video at a customer's request.

I'm sure someone will say that Vegas does a better job of downconverting that the actual camera, but just wonder if anyone has did a comparison, and if there is a noticable difference worth working with HDV files instead of .avi files.

Thanks!

Faith Poison Wedding Films Blog
Intergalactic Award-Winning Epic-Cinematic Wedding New-Doc Style Indie Fusion Bridal Movies on Hi-Definition Blu-Ray Disc

Mathew
Veteran

Feb 20, 2005, 12:06 PM

Post #62 of 101 (2527 views)
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Re: [szerangue] hdv wedding video [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

I know that those two guys will say anything in a post to discourage anyone from venturing into the HDV world. And its not because they have tried it, its because they have spent apparently lots of time on the DVX forums and have read there that the Sony camera is garbage.

Actually no, I'm just concerned about individuals getting snowed by technology. I get P.O'd when someone like DSE thinks that just because we're shooting DV we're inferior. I know I shouldn't. I also get the feeling that the sole reason he is even frequenting this forum (along with his minions) is to sell books. He does not care in the least about the actual craft of wedding videography. He's never commented on the actual content of a wedding video. You know what bride's really care about.

See there is the technology side of things which is only about 20% of what we get paid to do and then there is everything else as John has eloquently pointed out.

szerangue
Veteran

Feb 20, 2005, 12:22 PM

Post #63 of 101 (2522 views)
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Re: [RustyB] hdv wedding video [In reply to]	Can't Post

Rusty,
I did do a downconvert from the camera to DV and was not pleased with the result. I think it better to shoot hdv, capture hdv, edit hdv, encode to DV. I have some small clips I have been shooting today and I will take a 30 second clip and do a little test in a little while and report back to you. I will try to post to the ftp so that you can see for yourself.
Miracle Pictures
"If it's a good picture, it's a Miracle!"

"Life Productions, coming out of the dark, into the light"
4EVER GROUP AFFILIATE

szerangue
Veteran

Feb 20, 2005, 12:27 PM

Post #64 of 101 (2521 views)
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Re: [Mathew] hdv wedding video [In reply to]	Can't Post

Those are good points, Mathew. But I do not believe that most of the posters here agree with your assessment of DSE. Apparently you guys are feuding and most likely will never settle it. DSE may have his own agenda, who knows, I am sure we all have an agenda. The fact is that DSE offers some real life information that we can all use. And its good information, information that can help the average videographer make an informed decision about HDV. That is one thing I am trying to offer here. I do not have the experience as a lot of the guys here, I don't have the talent of a C-Mac or DMB, I am just lucky enough, IMO, to be able to afford to move to HDV this early. Right or Wrong.

I would suggest that we let the posters who want to discuss HDV, discuss HDV. If there is a post that is titled, PROS AND CONS OF HDV, then that would be a better forum for heated battles.
Miracle Pictures
"If it's a good picture, it's a Miracle!"

"Life Productions, coming out of the dark, into the light"
4EVER GROUP AFFILIATE

RustyB
Veteran

Feb 20, 2005, 1:07 PM

Post #65 of 101 (2511 views)
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Re: [szerangue] hdv wedding video [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

I would suggest that we let the posters who want to discuss HDV, discuss HDV. If there is a post that is titled, PROS AND CONS OF HDV, then that would be a better forum for heated battles.

Thanks again for all the real-world testing by "one of us" Shane. I think I shouldn't have too many hardware problems editing HDV, using Vegas5 and ConnectHD. I need to buy a third desktop anways, so I'll have to two "faster" editing PC's and use this old 1300MHz for VU and SD editing. I'm certain that I can now move from only editing on two computers at the same time, to three. I'm going to die young. Tongue

By the way, I think we should really have an HDV forum. We have a Sony DV/DVCAM forum. In the event forum, someone could post a comment about how rude it is when someone farts on the videographer at a wedding reception, and it turns into an arguement about between the Z1 and DVX100, how HD won't be in demand for 67.8 years, why upgrading cheap prosumer cameras is a bad business decision because with full time use you should get at least 5 more years out of your VX1000, and with the occasional genius popping in to state how the whole debate is moot since HD is "undeliverable". LMAO! Sly

Faith Poison Wedding Films Blog
Intergalactic Award-Winning Epic-Cinematic Wedding New-Doc Style Indie Fusion Bridal Movies on Hi-Definition Blu-Ray Disc

(This post was edited by RustyB on Feb 20, 2005, 1:08 PM)

szerangue
Veteran

Feb 20, 2005, 2:25 PM

Post #66 of 101 (2493 views)
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Re: [RustyB] hdv wedding video [In reply to]	Can't Post

Can always depend on you Rusty to tell it like it is from a comical twist
Miracle Pictures
"If it's a good picture, it's a Miracle!"

"Life Productions, coming out of the dark, into the light"
4EVER GROUP AFFILIATE

AEMIKEA
User

Feb 20, 2005, 2:38 PM

Post #67 of 101 (2489 views)
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Re: [DSE] hdv wedding video [In reply to]	Can't Post

Just shot another wedding in HDV last night, beautiful picture of course. I don't buy into the idea that if we can't deliver it now it is useless, I don't shoot it and say to them "one day soon, when I can deliver it in HDV you will have your wedding", I deliver it in SD DVD now, and the HDV down convert looks better than my VX's. With the Aspect HD I am editing the same as DV, in realtime, I have the complete wedding ready to go for when they come back later, no further work on my part except to burn to a new disk, I can guarantee they will be back for the HD version at some point and I will have it, all I have to do is show the client what it looks like on my HDTV and they will be sold. My only added cost was the camera's and Aspect HD. To say it is useless does not make sense to me, of course I can only say that from the standpoint of actually "using" these cameras, it did not improve my shot taking obviously, but the picture is so much better SD or HDV.

Mike

DSE
Veteran

Feb 20, 2005, 3:15 PM

Post #68 of 101 (2477 views)
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Re: [Mathew] hdv wedding video [In reply to]	Can't Post

Quote

I get P.O'd when someone like DSE thinks that just because we're shooting DV we're inferior. I know I shouldn't. I also get the feeling that the sole reason he is even frequenting this forum (along with his minions) is to sell books. He does not care in the least about the actual craft of wedding videography. He's never commented on the actual content of a wedding video. You know what bride's really care about.

There you go with your bullsh** again, Mathew. I have commented SEVERAL times on content, and have also stated that "content is king." Further, there have been a boatload of private mails back and forth between myself and members of this forum, nearly all related to content.
If you feel inferior, then you are causing yourself to feel that way. We shoot DV, SD, and HDV here, and have an HDCam available for rental that I personally don't use except for very rare testing/comparisons. So if DV is inferior, then I'm inferior too. Because a good 60% of what we shoot is still DV or SD.
Regarding my "minions," well..I don't have any that I'm aware of. Do I have fans? Yeah. Sell a few million records over the course of 12 years, that tends to happen. I can't control that. Sometimes they are far more of a burden than anything else.
My agenda is helping folks out. If you can't see that through my posts on many forums going back more than 10 years, then I'm sorry for you. If I was here to sell books, DVDs, my music, or my training, you'd be seeing very different posts from me. I came over here because I was asked to by a friend. If you don't like it, then ignore me and the subjects I've posted to. Is it really that hard?
Believe it or not, I started out in video trying to learn just as you or anyone else in this forum has done or is doing. When I started, there weren't books or videos or forums to frequent and ask questions. I had to tag along with shooters and feel like an idiot, but I wanted to learn. I've screwed up more than you'll likely ever attempt in your life, so as far as I'm concerned, ignore my posts and maybe others will benefit from my mistakes and the knowledge gained in making those mistakes. You wanna talk about creative input? Read any one of the over 300 tutorials I've written on sound, lighting, mixing, shooting, compositing, delivering, scoring, and other subjects. Can't help it if VU doesn't host those along with the others, but on the website, you'll find hundreds of creative ideas. But if I started posting those here, I'd be having you piss on that, too.
Must be a very hard rock stuck in your craw to be so angry, feeling like you've got to poke at someone who has been even just a little successful. But that success, my angry little friend, has come at the expense of more than you'll likely ever be capable of understanding. And that's not condescension, that's outright disgust at your ungrateful attitude towards others that are willing to help when others have questions. I'd have given my left nut to have had verbal access to a multi-time Grammy winner, multi-Emmy winner, and Oscar nominee when I was starting out. I'd probably be a lot better than I am today. That's not a statement of "I'm better than you" but it IS a statement of "I'm very experienced, and I've paid a lot of dues to gain that experience." And I'll still give that left nut to people worthy of that respect and time. Guys like Walter Murch, Steven Soderbergh, Steve Odekirk are always willing to provide time for people hungry for knowledge. And they do it for free, when they can. What's their agenda?
I'm STILL learning, and when I get to spend a day with a guy like Hui Kang, Jody Eldred, George Murphy, Tandi Moore, Robert Rodriguez, and other high end, active, and successful folks, you can bet your butt I'm on a plane to do so very quickly. And usually I share those experiences in the form of a tutorial, article, or blog. And gee, damn, guess what? A lot of folks seem pretty appreciative of those tutorials, articles, or blogs.
Believe it or not, I get my kicks out of the "thank you's" and appreciative comments, and good feelings that usually come with helping someone out. Probably for the same reason Doug moderates this forum, and for the same reason that so many others volunteer their experiences.
But for someone as self-centered and immature as you appear to be, I'm quite confident you don't understand that philosophy.

Douglas Spotted Eagle
Author, producer, composer
www.vasst.com
"I enjoy music, long walks at sunset on the beach, and poking dead things with a sharp stick."

Morris
Enthusiast

Feb 20, 2005, 3:50 PM

Post #69 of 101 (2461 views)
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Re: [DSE] hdv wedding video [In reply to]	Can't Post

DSE,
When I made that post I was prepared for rebuttal. That is fine and what this forum is about.

Quote

With posts like this I should hire you to write books for VASST. Wink

I tried to list everything I could think of to emphasize the large task that HDV will (ok might) require for those who might not have written their task down on paper. Writing everything down one can think of is a good way to uncover things not previously realized. I should have put a warning at the beginning to that effect.

Quote

HD DVD players are NOT two years out. Try two months out.

Opps, sorry for my mis-information. I based my 2 year predicition on a post that you previously made, quote:
"DSE said:
Dec 5, 2004, 10:22 AM
Re: [Mark Foley] HDV for U
snip.....
Don't hold your breath for Blu-Ray, we're at least 18 months out from when consumers will have access to these sorts of machines, based on what Sony has told me in recent weeks.
.....snip
I know you must be close to Sony since you are a Vegas guru so I put a lot of stock in your statement.

Quote

Regarding the rest of your post...well.....most of that's just plain fantasyland. HDV can be edited on a laptop without a whole lotta difference from DV as long as the proc is faster than 2.6MHz. HDV can be edited on a desktop for very little different experience than DV as long as it's 2.6MHz or faster.

I must admit that I based much of my conclusions regarding needing a high-end dual CPU computer on what Shane Z. has posted with his experiences with his Canopus system. I understood that the Canopus system is one of the most powerful ones at this time.
*** EDIT: Just read this in a post that Shane just made above:
"It is expensive. Be ready to shell out at least $20k (give or take a few grand) but be ready to spend some money. I do not believe you will be able to edit this format on your average editing computer, my opnion based on true life hands on experience, not from a thread I read on a DVX forum."
Shane is real world and I admire his courage to tell it like it is from his experiences.

Quote

Same burners.
Same DVD Authoring tools for the most part.

I assume you mean for productions delivered in SD now. I was referring to burners for HD-DVD or Blu-ray which have not even been released yet. This was in regard to giving clients their productions on a HD disc on either of those formats when those burners and players become available.

Quote

With all the HDV owners that have been out there since October, I've yet to hear of one dropout. It's a POTENTIAL problem. One that WILL happen to someone. But it hasn't. I could make a list like yours about any format. Including Digibeta, or even HDCam.

Please note that I said "with the possibility of up to 1/2 second of freezing or mosaics due to MPEG2 dropouts." Was just pointing out that with HDV, a dropout could affect up to 1/2 second of video. But dropouts will happen with any format. That is a given. Videographers will have to accept the greater affect on their video when (notice that I did not say "if") they do decide to go HDV. My point was that this risk of longer duration dropouts is taken to deliver in SD on a current DVD now.

Quote

Look, if you want to stand behind your current shooting formula, that's great. No sweat. It's your income. It's how YOU want to shoot. But at the same time, don't make terribly uninformed statements against the format.

DSE, I've based much of my current viewpoints on HDV via your
"Don't hold your breath for Blu-Ray, we're at least 18 months out from when consumers will have access to these sorts of machines, based on what Sony has told me in recent weeks."
statement made in December 2004. If HD-DVD players are are two months out that changes things somewhat. But there will still be the lag for mass user acceptance.

Folks who have opted to be early adopters of HDV for wedding videos are going in with their eyes open. That is fine and I admire their courage. Folks who have not yet jumped in can read all of the different posts and separate the wheat from the chaff and come to their own conclusions. That is after all what this forum is for and I think we can all have polite discussions.

Thanks,
Morris

(This post was edited by Morris on Feb 20, 2005, 4:05 PM)

DSE
Veteran

Feb 20, 2005, 4:02 PM

Post #70 of 101 (2453 views)
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Re: [Morris] hdv wedding video [In reply to]	Can't Post

Morris, you are basing most of your position in the above post, on the availability of Blu-Ray or HD-DVD. Those are not the only delivery formats. Panasonic and Sony would like you to believe that. But there ARE other options. Nero, IMO, has the best option coming forward, as they'll allow an MPEG4 to be delivered, same with Quicktime (very soon) that can be burned on a DVD. Getting 2.5 hours on a DVD isn't hard, and it uses standard tools that are available now. There are only a couple settop players such as the Ave Link and the new Apex's that will display it, but we'll be seeing a lot more of them in the very near future. Blu-Ray and HD-DVD are indeed quite a ways down the road. I expect we'll see the first Blu-Ray burners for consumers in November/December of this year, at a premium cost. It's going to be a while before we have penetration of either format, which is the main reason I'm looking at all the other options. Don't confuse HD-delivery with HD-DVD or Blu-Ray. There are several other options, options supported by a wide variety of manufacturers and delivery mechanisms.

Regarding computer, I think Shane has since discovered that he was using the Canopus set up incorrectly, but he'll have to answer this. While Vegas handles HDV very well, Canopus and Premiere handle it better because they have HAL's, Vegas doesn't and likely never will. But any desktop computer faster than 2.6 can manage HDV, and faster is always better.
The best way to get into the HDV knowledge game is to download HDV clips from one of several places around the web. Play with them. This is just dipping your toe, but it's a lot better and more sensible than jumping in with both feet and possibly drowning. Conservative is a good strategy, especially if it means not making big business moves. HDV isn't cheap to get into, no doubt.

Douglas Spotted Eagle
Author, producer, composer
www.vasst.com
"I enjoy music, long walks at sunset on the beach, and poking dead things with a sharp stick."

(This post was edited by DSE on Feb 20, 2005, 4:03 PM)

AEMIKEA
User

Feb 20, 2005, 4:08 PM

Post #71 of 101 (2448 views)
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I am thankful that many of you who share in this forum do so even with some of the comments/bashing you receive here, There are many here that I do not necessarily care for how they present there points, it only detracts from the logic they are presenting when they make it personal, it is hard to hear the expertise through the biased anger and bashing, we don't have to agree on everything obviously. Being a new HDV fan I appreciate all the info I can get on it from actual users, bashers who have never seen or used the cameras, I disregard.

Mike

RustyB
Veteran

Feb 20, 2005, 4:10 PM

Post #72 of 101 (2448 views)
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Re: hdv wedding video [In reply to]	Can't Post

Like I've said before, different peeps from different areas/markets/target clients, will have different needs. I see that most videogs in my area are still delivering VHS as standard. Shocked

I can't even imagine trying to sell my customers a VHS tape; they're actually harder to make then DVD; but those may be the people using the old-fashioned editing systems editing straight to tape. Those are the same people fighting the move to HD. Tongue

Heck, I can't even imagine going back to 4:3 (for weddings)...if high-end clients have 16:9 HD TV's, then why would I give them a 4:3 video so they can attempt to figure out their remote control and make it look right. If I'm going to make 16:9 videos, I need a 16:9 camera. It doesn't have to be HD, it just has to look decent on a 16:9 TV for me right now from a valid business standpoint...VX's & PD's don't...no arguement.

I'm poor, and have an old 4:3 Vega TV in my living room. My best friends are "middle class"; bought a large HD flat panel TV a few months back, and added a big HD antenna to their house because they wanted it. I'm going over there in a couple hours to watch it before we go to the Duran Duran concert....yes, we're old. Again, they're more upper middle class than I (me=lower/broke), and I'm trying to figure out how I'll pay for half the limo ride to the concert, and still afford some Budweiser at the Toyota Center. Maybe they'll have a booth for cheaper Lone Star longnecks...for us rednecks. I'm still proud enough to admit that I like Lone Star. If you don't, than you should be deported back to the U.S. Laugh

Faith Poison Wedding Films Blog
Intergalactic Award-Winning Epic-Cinematic Wedding New-Doc Style Indie Fusion Bridal Movies on Hi-Definition Blu-Ray Disc

Morris
Enthusiast

Feb 20, 2005, 4:37 PM

Post #73 of 101 (2877 views)
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Quote

My agenda is helping folks out. If you can't see that through my posts on many forums going back more than 10 years, then I'm sorry for you. If I was here to sell books, DVDs, my music, or my training, you'd be seeing very different posts from me. I came over here because I was asked to by a friend.

In this regard I can vouch for DSE's statements above.

I used to edit in Vegas 3 before switching to the Matrox RTX100, and used to read his huge amount of posts in the Cow's forum before he ever wrote any books or provided training material. He would respond in literally minutes to a large number of questions. He shared his knowledge and experiences with Vegas in a big way without any personal agenda at that time.

As a matter of fact, and I doubt he even remembers it, I suggested once to him in the Cow that he profit from his enormous knowledge of Vegas by writing books or providing training CDs.

Hope folks can give him the benefit of the doubt knowing his previous track record before writing any books.
Morris

John K.
Veteran / Moderator

Feb 20, 2005, 4:51 PM

Post #74 of 101 (2870 views)
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In Reply To

Hi Gary,

I'm fortunate that most of all my bookings come from referrals. I'm not the least bit worried about another company in my area popping up this year or the next who will offer HD - I'm just not. My strong point isn't talking equipment, nor is that of my clients. My content and emotional impact is what sells my services, along with a decent personality (in my opinion, of course!).

Now, I will go HD when the following occurs:

1) When I see that my booking pace is beginning to be affected because I'm not offering HD; that is, my clients are asking for it - so far, not a peep.

2) When there is a true deliverable format available AND the public is buying it (keyword, AND); and of course, it will be the 2nd or 3rd generation of that player/burner as well (I NEVER buy first generation equipment).

3) When the 2nd or 3rd generation of Sony cameras are released (again, I NEVER buy first generation equipment).

4) When I feel 100% confidant that all the editing bugs, etc. have been worked out or addressed in greater detail.

5) When I can justify, based on some of the things just mentioned, that me going HD will be a benefit, not something that will not only add to my editing time now and require additional time to "trouble-shoot" - I just don't have the free time now.

Those are a few of the reasons as to what will influence my decision as to when. As you can see, what the competition does, really doesn't enter into the top of my list. It just isn't a factor for me and I know my services will continue to sell well with my existing referral base and how I currently do things. I still have NEVER had a request to shoot in 16x9 and have yet to have a client say HD. I guess what I'm saying, to answer your question, is that I don't care what others in the industry do - to each their own. And, from being in this business a while, I've come to learn quickly not to get bent out of shape about the newest equipment, and to remember nothing happens overnight. There are so many factors at play with HD, not just on our end, but with the consumer (and what they are willing to spend, and what their parents are willing to spend, etc.) that I know I still easily have a good 2-3 years (or more!) yet before I could see this coming into play to the point where I feel I could make the right decision based upon what my target market is doing and what they are asking for. Until then, there are zero reasons for me to go HD - perhaps in 2007 or 2008.

Just an outside point I'll mention too - I've said this before, but might be relevant to state again: the cost of weddings is always increasing and the younger generation seem to be more understanding to the fact that it makes more sense to have a nice wedding, but perhaps not too over-the-top and to put that extra money towards a down-payment on a house. How much free time does anyone really have to watch that much TV that would warrant a younger couple to go all out and put TV viewing at the top of their priority list for things to buy? They are so busy with work, school, going out with friends, etc. Also, the options people now have for there limited free time is almost limitless (i.e. surf the web, email, watch TV, listen to music, go to Starbucks, etc.). I guess what I'm trying to draw attention to is the intangible issues that could also make a regular consumer slow to migrate over to HD - because it simply isn't a priority for them. Fixed budgets, student loans, etc. the list goes on and HD TVS etc. I just don't see being at the top. For us video geeks, we think picture image and HD are a must have in order to live. Much different than what the pulse of the average Joe is. Make sense?

To answer your final question, lowering prices... Never. It's not about the cameras or what I'm using that justifies my price, but rather my time and talent. In several years, I would think HD cameras will be the norm, there will be HD cameras at Best Buy for $800, etc. and the "frenzy" that we see now will be the norm and when talking HD then, �so what�, �big deal�. Pssst., though, did you hear in 2009 Super HD will be coming out (yes) � how did we ever manage to live with just plain HD???

The question the future brides and grooms are still going to ask is: Do we really need a wedding video? And, the only way they will say yes is if they've seen one that has been done well. I can�t see one couple saying to another couple after watching their video and crying, �boy, you know, some of the lighting was a hair dark and the edges of those chairs in that scene, yeah, they looked a bit soft,� � sounds ridiculous doesn�t it? The image is always second to the client, in first place is them seeing themselves and the capturing by the videographer of all their important family and friends � that is what will sell your services first - the content and edited production.

John

(This post was edited by John K. on Feb 20, 2005, 5:59 PM)

Morris
Enthusiast

Feb 20, 2005, 5:05 PM

Post #75 of 101 (2860 views)
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Re: [DSE] hdv wedding video [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

If one gives their client an interim solution, even if they give the client the player as part of their package, will they have to repeat the effort when the real HD players like HD-DVD and Blu-ray become available? I suspect that their clients will demand it rather than have their interim solution disc be obsolete in a few years.

Just one more piece of the puzzle,
Morris

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