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Home: Video University Forums: HDV:
mini comparison review Sony Z1u vs Canon XH-A1

 

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scotthayes
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Mar 25, 2007, 1:33 PM

Post #1 of 27 (7175 views)
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mini comparison review Sony Z1u vs Canon XH-A1 Can't Post

I am sure this topic is on everyone's mind; for those that currently own Sonys, and are contemplating a switch (ME), and for those itching to jump in the HD pool. I recently got the A1 through my regular job, and took this weekend to compare them, since I am on the fence about switching. Let's start with the physical aspect:

The Sony is much beefier in use than the Canon. It is very well balanced, and all the controls are easily reachable. I am actually
50/50 on the top mounted LCD. while larger than the Canon's, I find it gets in the way of mounting accesories to the hotshoe (it cant be closed). In use, the Canons is brighter, and sharper. The peaking function is easy to see on the Canon, making focus easier. Speaking of focus rings, I prefer the feel of the Sony. It just has a more positive feel to it. Same goes for the zoom ring. the small knob, and the stops, make hitting the range fast and easy. The Canon's is mushy. Snap zooming on the Sony is a piece of cake. You can set the rate of the Canon's via a small wheel. But in manual, it is useless. The large aperture ring on the Canon is beautiful. However, due to the placement of the LCD, the LCD may interfere with controlling it, depending on how tilted it is. The small knob on the Sony sits out of the way, and can be controlled with your thumb while zooming or focuing with your other fingers. The Sony's shotgun mount is more secure than the Canon's, as is the onboard mic. Sony's is a solid, one piece unit. The mic on my Canon is already loose. XLRs are in about the same spot, with the same controls.
I think I prefer the Canon mode wheel to the button arrangement on the Sony. no multiple presses to get to manual, dial it in, and your done. WB, Gain are the same. the shutter speed control on the Canon is upfront, could be bigger. I found it hard to adjust because
it is blended so well with the body. The sony's is onthe back, but easy to find and use. the hotshoe. Sony's is cold, and is at the
front of the camera. Great, but it gets things in the way of the LCD. Canon's is just behind the mic, and it is HOT. Meaning, if you shoot Canon photo gear, bring along your 580EX, switch to photomode, and take your DVD covers with your HDV camera. Works great! the head even zooms with the camera. In use the Sony FEELS more substantial than the Canon does. They both weigh about the same, but the Canon feels SMALLER than it is. I like the hidden battery compartment. One thing i found, if your mounting the camera
on a 501 head, the widest part of the body sits directly ontop of the
tightening lever for the quick release plate. It wouldn't tighten all the way.

IMAGE CONTROLS:
The Z1 is the simpler of the two to setup. Great images out of the box. The Canon has a WARM feeling to it. However, it has an almost infinte number of adjustments and presets. Amazing really. I don't even know WTF all those variables do. For those who just like to turn it on and go, the Canon can be intimidating. The plus side, and this is a big one, is the built in SD card. I know the V1u has the same, but this review is geared towards upgraders. Definitely read the manual and have the camera hooked up to a monitor before making adjustments. AND read about the different adjustments before messing with them. For weddings, the Sony's OOTB look has been great for me, and I add looks in post. In my testing, I shot outdoors, so I didnt have a chance to shoot with any gain. the AGC switch is on the side, but be warned, there is no limiter with it engaged, so the Canon will go all the way to +18 if you're on auto.

AUDIO - Didnt get into it.

Picture Quality.
This was a toss up really. looking at them back to back, you can clearly see the Sony's cooler palette. The Canon is noticeably warmer. The picture is also sharper. The images stay crips from the wide range all the way zoomed in. It almost looks oversharpened, i would definitely dial it down in use. The instant AF, can instantly focus on the wrong thing. It really didn't seem to work any better than the Sony system. I don't trust either one of them. I find my Sony's backfocus easily when zoomed. The CAnon was better, but I did notice it hunting slighlty at 20x.
20X zoom! It is beautiful. Definitely nice to have. However, 12x really hasn't been a big deal for me. At a certain distance, yes, but couple's are more than understanding when you are in the back thanks to the church rules. You do what you can do. Never had a complaint.
Looking at the images on my 1080p Sony. the Sony is more contrasty but a tad softer zoomed in. The Canon is warmer, and sharper through out the whole range. Needs a bump in contrast and saturation, but ultimately close. Jane and Joe won't be able to tell them apart. Perhaps the biggest ting in FAVOR of the CAnon, is there is no lag when you hit the record button. It starts immediately. One other thing, the barndoors lenscap. Meaningless, really, unless you are dumb enough NOT to spend $20 on a filter for the front element.

A QUICK SUMMARY:
Build - Sony
Controls - Canon
Lens - Canon
LCD - Draw. Sony's is bigger, but not as bright, location is up in the air. Canon's is smaller, but brighter and easy to see, and has an exposure meter, but can get in the way of the aperture ring.
Image Quality - oh,this one is so close, and I am a Sony guy.
But It goes to Canon by a slim margin. and I mean SLIM. It may
very well even up shooting in a dimly lit recpetion venue.

In Summary - We are run and gun videographers, so this review is geared towards that premise of taking the camera out of the bag, inserting a tape, setting basic controls and away you go. For those
of us who are still Sony, the Z1u and the FX1 still have many years
of life left in them. They shoot 1080i HD. Yes, the Canon's chips are true 1080, but no one who books you is going to see the difference on a 720p LCD, or a laptop lcd, or a 4:3 TV. So, if you are entrenched with Sony, should you run out and upgrade? NO. And this is coming from someone who loves to buy new shit. IMHO Sony is still the king in video. Superb reliability, excellent picture quality. If you are just now considering the move to HD, should you go Canon? Yes. I would pick the Canons over the V1 and the FX7. Bigger chips, and CCDs over CMOS. At this point, I wouldn't want to lose money by selling gear that is producing beautiful material. Sure, they may not have as many features, but content is king. If you can't shoot or edit, neither is going to make a difference. As much as the money is burning a whole in my pocket, I would like to wait until i can get a camera that records to compact flash cards. Until then, put your dough into tools that save time. Hope this helps.






If your gear is paid for, KEEP IT!

(This post was edited by scotthayes on Mar 25, 2007, 5:22 PM)


Darrell Aubert
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Mar 25, 2007, 5:09 PM

Post #2 of 27 (7131 views)
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Re: [scotthayes] mini comparison review Sony Z1u vs Canon XH-A1 [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for the in-depth review bro. One thing going for the canon as well is that it's nearly 1k less than the Z1! One thing I saw that I did like about the Z1 though is that it has more assignable buttons than the A1. Any experience with that?

Darrell Aubert
The Smugboy


scotthayes
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Mar 25, 2007, 5:14 PM

Post #3 of 27 (7127 views)
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Re: [Darrell Aubert] mini comparison review Sony Z1u vs Canon XH-A1 [In reply to] Can't Post

I never use them. only to laydown bars, which the canon has
a toggle switch for.






If your gear is paid for, KEEP IT!


BigDaddy C
Enthusiast

Mar 25, 2007, 5:25 PM

Post #4 of 27 (7123 views)
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Re: [scotthayes] mini comparison review Sony Z1u vs Canon XH-A1 [In reply to] Can't Post

It would be nice to be able to assign a "turn off steadyshot." But it's not a deal breaker.
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leethomas1225
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Mar 25, 2007, 5:31 PM

Post #5 of 27 (7122 views)
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Re: [scotthayes] mini comparison review Sony Z1u vs Canon XH-A1 [In reply to] Can't Post

"If you are just now considering the move to HD, should you go Canon? Yes. I would pick the Canons over the V1 and the FX7..."

Scott,

For those of us considering HD - and not interested in either the V1 or FX7 - would you still go with the Z1/FX1 or would you go A1 if you were buying today? Although the Sonys are a few years older, it sounds like they still hold up quite well. I, like you, am a Sony guy and have never really cared all that much for Canon gear. Maybe it's time to change? Then again, like you say, in the run and gun world of weddings sometimes simpler can be better: get a nice, clean signal and "style" it up in post. Any more thoughts?

BTW, thanks for the great review. Many of us have been waiting for something like this.

Lee Thomas
Contemporary Films

Lee
Lee Thomas Films
The Website
The Blog


scotthayes
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Mar 25, 2007, 5:38 PM

Post #6 of 27 (7118 views)
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Re: [leethomas1225] mini comparison review Sony Z1u vs Canon XH-A1 [In reply to] Can't Post

given the price the Canons can be had for with incentives and rebates
from some online retailers, Canon without a hesitation. That being said,
everytime I bought a brand OTHER than Sony, I regretted it, and wished
I had bought Sony. given the price difference of used Z1s vs the new Canon, new Canon. For those already IN the HD pool, we can still get a decent return on the 1st gen cams.If you can upgrade for less than $800, then the new cams with new features may be worth it. I am still
on the fence.






If your gear is paid for, KEEP IT!


KevinShaw
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Mar 25, 2007, 6:35 PM

Post #7 of 27 (7112 views)
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Re: [scotthayes] mini comparison review Sony Z1u vs Canon XH-A1 [In reply to] Can't Post

I'd add that the Canon images (at default settings) are much grainier in dim lighting than those from the Z1U/FX1, but you can apparently mitigate this by adjusting image settings. I'd give the nod to Canon for higher resolution sensors, better zoom range and XLR inputs standard, but the Sonys are simpler to use out of the box and have an advantage now because there are so many of them in circulation (hence easy to find a second shooter). Plus the Sonys will run for an entire wedding on one FP-970 battery, while I gather that the Canons typically require a battery change at some point.

If the Canons had been available when I bought my FX1s I'm not sure which I would have picked, but I'm happy enough with what I've got now to wait until the next great thing comes along.


Mike Fuhrmann
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Mar 28, 2007, 10:58 PM

Post #8 of 27 (6991 views)
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Re: [scotthayes] mini comparison review Sony Z1u vs Canon XH-A1 [In reply to] Can't Post

Great review Scott!

I am more excited about what Sony will probably release next year! As you pointed out well, Sony's FX1/Z1U still hold up well almost three years after release against all the market has to offer for us! Imagine what their next "real" FX1/Z1U replacements will have to offer!

-Mike
Artistic Media


scotthayes
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Mar 29, 2007, 4:40 AM

Post #9 of 27 (6984 views)
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Re: [Mike Fuhrmann] mini comparison review Sony Z1u vs Canon XH-A1 [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks Mike!

as a follow up, I did some shooting with the Canon yesterday at work
in our basement, which is about as dimly lit as a reception hall, using some of the presets. I shot at 6 adn 12 db. 12db was horrible. shadow was atrocious. It seriously went from looking like a wonderful HD machine to a consumer grade camera in a hurry. The servo zoom truly sucks. I had to reposition my hand to manually zoom. So, I am glad I am keeping my Sonys! I am going to wait for Cams with built in HDDs before I upgrade.






If your gear is paid for, KEEP IT!


JC/DV
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Mar 29, 2007, 6:27 AM

Post #10 of 27 (6976 views)
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Re: [scotthayes] mini comparison review Sony Z1u vs Canon XH-A1 [In reply to] Can't Post

Scott, you have to use a good preset to make the canon better in low light. I'm working on a couple now. Out of the box, low light and 12db is NOT great at all, but
I'm very close to making a great preset for low light (with help from others too). I've shot some 12db stuff that is not looking bad at all.

Jerome
JC/DV Productions - Website | Blog | Twitter | Facebook

Technology. It does wonders if you know how to use it.


scotthayes
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Mar 29, 2007, 6:35 AM

Post #11 of 27 (6975 views)
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Re: [JC/DV] mini comparison review Sony Z1u vs Canon XH-A1 [In reply to] Can't Post

when you get it right, could you email it to me? I do really love
the camera, but it just doesn't make sense for me to dump
a working system at this point.






If your gear is paid for, KEEP IT!


JC/DV
Veteran


Mar 29, 2007, 6:43 AM

Post #12 of 27 (6973 views)
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In Reply To
when you get it right, could you email it to me? I do really love
the camera, but it just doesn't make sense for me to dump
a working system at this point.


Sure will. I totally understand why you aren't changing cameras, just wanted to chime in that the lowlight OTB does suck, but can be greatly tweaked and wanted to make sure you don't discount the cam 100%. When I get time again, I'll work on the preset again......

Jerome
JC/DV Productions - Website | Blog | Twitter | Facebook

Technology. It does wonders if you know how to use it.


BigDaddy C
Enthusiast

Mar 29, 2007, 7:10 AM

Post #13 of 27 (6972 views)
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Re: [JC/DV] mini comparison review Sony Z1u vs Canon XH-A1 [In reply to] Can't Post

Wolfgang seems to have a promising preset in the works. I already downloaded his version 1 and have been tweaking it on my own but now it looks like he has put time into version 2.

http://babelfish.altavista.com/...support.de%2f20.html
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Know zat vee are zee v in VU.

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JC/DV
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Mar 29, 2007, 7:22 AM

Post #14 of 27 (6967 views)
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Re: [BigDaddy C] mini comparison review Sony Z1u vs Canon XH-A1 [In reply to] Can't Post

I have no idea why he was using NR1 for daylight footage shooting at -3db. NR1 will create ghosting in the image with motion. I'm working on one without NR1... but, his colors looked good and has real test equipment. Never found the low light preset from him.

dvinfo has a great thread running about lowlight and has helped me out with this creation.

Jerome
JC/DV Productions - Website | Blog | Twitter | Facebook

Technology. It does wonders if you know how to use it.


BigDaddy C
Enthusiast

Mar 29, 2007, 7:44 AM

Post #15 of 27 (6965 views)
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Yeah, Wolfgang has this thing about using NR1. You need to go to page 19 to find his latest published presets (you can actually download it), and he has NR1 turned on, but I turned it off and instead boosted NR2.

Still, his colors look awesome so that's what I really like getting from his presets.
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Palin for VP.


leethomas1225
Enthusiast


Apr 2, 2007, 5:51 PM

Post #16 of 27 (6853 views)
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Re: [scotthayes] mini comparison review Sony Z1u vs Canon XH-A1 [In reply to] Can't Post

Scott,

Any updates since you've tried the Canon in lowlight...? Taking lowlight into consideration, would you still go with the Canons if you were purchasing today or are the Sonys looking better now...?

Lee Thomas
Contemporary Films

Lee
Lee Thomas Films
The Website
The Blog


scotthayes
Veteran


Apr 3, 2007, 3:01 AM

Post #17 of 27 (6823 views)
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Re: [leethomas1225] mini comparison review Sony Z1u vs Canon XH-A1 [In reply to] Can't Post

Lee,

I am going to take the Canon to a job thursday night to shoot a play with it. I will give a new assessment then. to be fair, I should have shot with a light, to simulate how I normally shoot, then make a judgement.
Stay tuned.






If your gear is paid for, KEEP IT!


BigDaddy C
Enthusiast

Apr 3, 2007, 7:54 AM

Post #18 of 27 (6814 views)
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Re: [scotthayes] mini comparison review Sony Z1u vs Canon XH-A1 [In reply to] Can't Post

Scott,

One thing that you will have to remember is that the gain settings do not match up.

Canon's -3db is more like Sony's 0db

So if you're using 18 db on the Sony, you should find that 15db on the Canon should suffice...but Canon doesn't have a 15 db, so you'll have to use 12.

There is absolutely no way around it. The Sony low light picture is smooth. I think it has to do with the lower resolution. It means that it has bigger pixels and it also means that those bigger pixels that allow more light need to be pixel shifted to created the full 1440, in effect smoothing out the grain. That becomes apparent when you zoom in to some low light footage. You can see what looks like horizontal strands of grain. It is grain but it masks itself a lot better than the individual pixels sticking out in the Canon footage.

The upside? The Canon footage is noticeably sharper, even if annoyingly noisy, unless you use NR1 set to Low. This instantly brings the XH-A1 in line with the FX1 BUT you get that nasty ghosting as soon as something moves. A slow dance, you MIGHT get away with it. A wide balcony shot...sure. Vows, maybe... as long as a hand doesn't reach up to wipe away a tear. In short, I stay away from it. Unless you're doing landscape cinematography I do not recommend it. Others will disagree. NR2 set to high does a pretty good job too but it needs to be stronger to get the grain out.

The only way around all of this is 24p. Switch to 24p and sensitivity goes up. If you don't plan on doing slow motion, you'll be fine, especially if like me, you were going to render to 24p anyway. But it's risky because if you're shooting that first dance and there's a shot you'd like to slo-mo ...well good luck. 24p is great for those documentary packages where you know you will not be using slow motion in post.

Canon = noisy but sharper low light images, quick start record, 20x zoom, easier focusing thanks to peaking that's useable, 24p
Sony = beautiful smooth images in low light even at 12db, big LCD, 4 gain settings thanks to AGC limiter.

If Canon could put out a firmware upgrade with an even higher NR2 (which has no ghosting) that would really help.
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KevinShaw
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Apr 4, 2007, 9:09 AM

Post #19 of 27 (6777 views)
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In Reply To
Canon's -3db is more like Sony's 0db



I haven't done a careful test of this, but my impression from comparing Canon to Sony HDV cameras in dark settings is that the difference is greater than that in terms of comparable image noise. At default image settings the amount of noise from the Canons in dim light quickly becomes distracting, while the Sonys have a finer noise signature which can be tolerable even at 12-18db gain. It's not just the amount of noise which matters but the "look" of that noise which needs to be considered, and numbers can't tell that story as well as looking at sample footage will do.


BigDaddy C
Enthusiast

Apr 4, 2007, 9:18 AM

Post #20 of 27 (6774 views)
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Re: [kwshaw1] mini comparison review Sony Z1u vs Canon XH-A1 [In reply to] Can't Post

Correct. Comparing a 6 db A1 with a 9db FX1 gives you comparable grain but the FX1's grain looks different. It is smoother and looks like strands of grain. The A1 gives you individual pixels and looks like a fine film grain. Very different types and depending on the scene I find one more distracting than the other.

I have talked with some people, however, that always prefer the FX1 look. It's easy to understand why...it is consistent and the grain doesn't do much dancing.
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Know zat vee are zee v in VU.

Palin for VP.


scotthayes
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Apr 6, 2007, 4:29 AM

Post #21 of 27 (6725 views)
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took the A1 with me to shoot an Easter play last night. I was impressed
with the lens. 20x was awesome! However, this is a noisy camera!!!
Even at 3db, it is noisy. at 12db, which i made the ghastly mistake of using, it is horrendous. I am going to have to shoot another performance
of this play. My fault, but I wanted another 3 chip camera vs using the HC1 as my wideshot. I think the HC1 would havebeen better. the grain pattern is terrible!. Yes, I tweaked a little, and this performance had spot lights, it was dark. In all honesty, I should have/could have shot at 0 db, even in low light and been ok. Dark scenes appear DARKER than they actually are in the LCD, and not being familiar, I gained up when I shouldn't have. In regular light, This camera seems to be about 3 stops more light sensitive than the Sonys. I was shooting at 2.4 on the Sony, and 6.3 on the Canon with regular lights on stage. I am currently loading FX1 footage at 9db, and the grain is invisible. I am soooo glad I didn't sell my Sonys.






If your gear is paid for, KEEP IT!


BigDaddy C
Enthusiast

Apr 6, 2007, 6:25 AM

Post #22 of 27 (6720 views)
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Yup...see Scott, that's what I was getting at, you can't use the same settings to compare these cams.

Regardless the grain pattern on the Sony will always be more pleasing to the majority of people. The question is whether or not you need gain when shooting a comparable scene with the A1.
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Palin for VP.


scotthayes
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Apr 6, 2007, 7:35 AM

Post #23 of 27 (6720 views)
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I also shot with skin detail on low, and their skin looks plastic as hell.
I notice it, but they won't. I think the A1 could have shot
on 0 the whole night and I would have been ok. live and learn.






If your gear is paid for, KEEP IT!


StillMotion
Enthusiast

Apr 18, 2007, 9:32 PM

Post #24 of 27 (6491 views)
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Re: [scotthayes] Update, real shoot [In reply to] Can't Post

For what its worth, I had boththe FX1 and the A1. I sold the FX1 and am much happeir with the A1 all around. Yes the gain looks worse on the A1, but it when your using gain on the Sony your shooting without it on the Canon. When the Canon is using gain, the Sony is already maxed out. In my mind, that gives Canon the edge on all fronts.


KevinShaw
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Apr 19, 2007, 10:58 AM

Post #25 of 27 (6478 views)
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In Reply To
Yes the gain looks worse on the A1, but it when your using gain on the Sony your shooting without it on the Canon. When the Canon is using gain, the Sony is already maxed out.


I shot some footage last year at a modestly-lit wedding venue using the Canon XL-H1 and Sony Z1U, and I wouldn't agree with that assessment. Anywhere with shadows caused the Canon to generate image noise which would be distracting to a casual observer, whereas the FX1 and Z1U generated cleaner footage in the same lighting. My brother looked at the Canon footage on a computer monitor and wondered whether we'd done something wrong with that camera, because the noise was overwhelming. As I've said before, neither line of HDV cameras are ideal for dark venues, but the Sonys are easier to work with in those conditions. Anyone trying to decide between the two should arrange to test this for themselves before buying; anyone with the Canons should be comparing image settings with other users to find the best low-light solution.

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