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Home: Video University Forums: HDV:
will sd footage match your hd footage?

 

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sc
Veteran


Feb 16, 2005, 6:11 PM

Post #1 of 28 (4476 views)
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will sd footage match your hd footage? Can't Post

for those of you who have hd cameras, do you edit all hd footage? or do you still have another cam with sd footage and mix it with the hd footage. do they match?




----------------
I deal with dysfunctional families on a daily basis. And trust me, everyone has a story, and none of you are that special.


FlowMotion
User


Feb 16, 2005, 9:35 PM

Post #2 of 28 (4441 views)
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Re: [sc] will sd footage match your hd footage? [In reply to] Can't Post

If they matched, why would anyone spend extra money on an HDV camera?


DSE
Veteran


Feb 16, 2005, 9:43 PM

Post #3 of 28 (4440 views)
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Re: [FlowMotion] will sd footage match your hd footage? [In reply to] Can't Post

There are devices that can be called into play to bring them closer together, but no, they will not match. You can dumb down the HD to look like the SD, but the second you put raw HD next to SD, regardless of the HD cam it came from, the SD looks horrible. That's why some of the commentary about "HDV doesn't look any better than my XYZ cam) is so laughable. When you see them both side by side on an HD monitor, the HDV simply kicks butt over SD in any realm. Even better than 4:2:2 uncompressed. The key is seeing it on an HD monitor. Remember that virtually no plasma nor LCD screen is "real" HD. Most plasmas don't even make it to 1600 pixels, let alone 1920. For testing/comparisons, you need a CRT monitor, for editing you're gonna want to be working with a 1900 x 1600 monitor.

Douglas Spotted Eagle
Author, producer, composer
www.vasst.com
"I enjoy music, long walks at sunset on the beach, and poking dead things with a sharp stick."


sc
Veteran


Feb 16, 2005, 10:15 PM

Post #4 of 28 (4136 views)
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Re: [FlowMotion] will sd footage match your hd footage? [In reply to] Can't Post

i guess my question should have been better phrased...but basically my question is, if you film one set of footage in hd, b-roll using a sd camera, even if you edit in hd, you can't deliver it in hd so the result would be in sd, will the two sets of footage match? moreover, if it's played on a non-hdtv, will the footage match?

but your question is valid, why would anyone spend extra money on an hd production if they can't watch it in hd?




----------------
I deal with dysfunctional families on a daily basis. And trust me, everyone has a story, and none of you are that special.


TheReal-C-Mac
User


Feb 16, 2005, 10:23 PM

Post #5 of 28 (4106 views)
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Re: [DSE] will sd footage match your hd footage? [In reply to] Can't Post

There is no question that HD has more resolution than SD, thus a sharper image. Sharper does not always mean better. It's funny how client's will pay big bucks to have 5-7 minutes of beat up old grainy Super 8 film. Yes technically Super 8 has higher resolution, but it doesn't look crisp at all when shot with old consumer cameras. What it does have is a nice nostalgic aesthetic, and aesthetic plays an important roll...I like a 24p image and am more attuned to film look, Sony missed the boat for me. I'm hoping that Panasonic nails it at NAB with the predicted 24p DVCPRO HD format for close to the same price as the Sony FX1. It will be interesting, as DVCPRO HD already has FCP HD support, to see how this game plays out.

chris


scotthayes
Veteran


Feb 16, 2005, 10:41 PM

Post #6 of 28 (4095 views)
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Re: [TheReal-C-Mac] will sd footage match your hd footage? [In reply to] Can't Post

that panasonic camera will indeed be interesting, especially if it is
based on their SD card system.






If your gear is paid for, KEEP IT!


szerangue
Veteran


Feb 16, 2005, 10:49 PM

Post #7 of 28 (4090 views)
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Re: [sc] will sd footage match your hd footage? [In reply to] Can't Post

Well, I shot a wedding in December using my FX1 as my A roll and my VX2100 as my B roll. There was definitely a difference in the two. I didn't even use the VX footage unless I absolutely had to. In fairness to the VX though, I shot it using 16:9 format. I had never done that before on the VX so I was not sure if it would have made a difference if I would have shot in 4:3. I was worried about how I was going to match the formats more than anything. But hey, I shot the wedding for free so that I could test it out, so nothing lost.
Miracle Pictures
"If it's a good picture, it's a Miracle!"

"Life Productions, coming out of the dark, into the light"
4EVER GROUP AFFILIATE


sc
Veteran


Feb 16, 2005, 11:50 PM

Post #8 of 28 (4061 views)
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Re: [szerangue] will sd footage match your hd footage? [In reply to] Can't Post

ah... thanks for the info Shane.




----------------
I deal with dysfunctional families on a daily basis. And trust me, everyone has a story, and none of you are that special.


L_awful_Man
Deleted

Feb 17, 2005, 3:59 AM

Post #9 of 28 (4019 views)
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Re: [TheReal-C-Mac] Hypothetical Scenario [In reply to] Can't Post

Sony missed the boat for me... hoping that Panasonic nails it at NAB

Chris,


Hypothetically, if Panny doesn't perform up to your standards following NAB, how are you ranking Z1/FX1 as your backup scenario (minus the 24P snafu) and why?


Best,
GPS <Groundhog Phil's Shadow>


TheReal-C-Mac
User


Feb 17, 2005, 4:47 PM

Post #10 of 28 (3949 views)
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Re: [L_awful_Man] Hypothetical Scenario [In reply to] Can't Post

Well, my boat floats in diffrent waters these days if you catch my drift :)

If I was shooting weddings still, I would hold onto SD and offer HD as an add, I would charge extra $ for the HD thinking I could always rent the cameras if need be, when I hit a point I could see better return by owning, i would buy into HD or HDV. I would not rush, other options may open up. I say go with what you need when you need it.

In my shoes now, I am very happy with my DVX100a with Anamorphic adapter and 7 inch 16:9 LCD. I can get a great film like image in 24p. I won't sell it for a sony HDV cam. Hell, I might not sell it right away for a Panasonic HD cam. In fact I would rather have it as an add to the collection. I would definately be more interested in DVCPRO HD format than HDV, no question there for me.

I'm under the idea currently that Rental is a good thing and I expect to do diffrent types of projects that I might want to rent diffrent cameras for if you get my drift...I just want to be able to use the right tool for the job and budget.

HDV is an interesting format and I'm looking forward to watching these things unfold, it can only benifit all of us to have better more affordable HD equipment at our disposal.

regards,

chris


Morris
Enthusiast


Feb 17, 2005, 6:46 PM

Post #11 of 28 (3920 views)
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Re: [TheReal-C-Mac] Hypothetical Scenario [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
I would definately be more interested in DVCPRO HD format than HDV, no question there for me.



Hope 1280x720p60 becomes the standard now with 1920x1080p down the road.
I hope all interlaced video beyond 720x480i and it's PAL equivalent, does not catch on.

Morris


(This post was edited by Morris on Feb 17, 2005, 6:48 PM)


L_awful_Man
Deleted

Feb 17, 2005, 7:02 PM

Post #12 of 28 (3911 views)
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Re: [TheReal-C-Mac] A Great Ship Asks Deep Waters [In reply to] Can't Post

Chris,


Thank you for your thoughts. No matter which waters your boat floats in at the moment, first and foremost you are an ARTIST whose talent will never cease to inspire, regardless of the venue and format you'll choose to express it.

As for the indecisive vote out there, stuck between the devil and the deep blue sea... [no pun or drift intended, of course] Wink, it'll take the thrill of hands-on experimenting to grow to appreciate the visioin of the new formats.

As always,
Do keep us posted on your projects,

GPS <Groundhog Phil's Shadow>

---
Let your voice be heard: over and over
http://www.videouniversity.com/...?post=159289;#159289


DSE
Veteran


Feb 17, 2005, 7:24 PM

Post #13 of 28 (3900 views)
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Re: [Morris] Hypothetical Scenario [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Hope 1280x720p60 becomes the standard now with 1920x1080p down the road.
I hope all interlaced video beyond 720x480i and it's PAL equivalent, does not catch on.


Nice hope, but highly, almost impossibly likely for the next 15 years, until the next pass at bandwidth allocation happens.
I realize you like P, but the fact remains that 1920 x 1080i has a much sharper detail. No, it doesn't do stills for freeze frame in football as well, but that remains a smaller segment of the viewing market. Further, for bandwidth purposes and acquisition purposes, it's a much more affordable proposition. 1080p is the grail, but that's a lot of money tied up in the changeover that's not going to amortize anytime soon.

Douglas Spotted Eagle
Author, producer, composer
www.vasst.com
"I enjoy music, long walks at sunset on the beach, and poking dead things with a sharp stick."


Morris
Enthusiast


Feb 17, 2005, 8:21 PM

Post #14 of 28 (3895 views)
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Re: [DSE] Hypothetical Scenario [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Nice hope, but highly, almost impossibly likely for the next 15 years, until the next pass at bandwidth allocation happens.
I realize you like P, but the fact remains that 1920 x 1080i has a much sharper detail. No, it doesn't do stills for freeze frame in football as well, but that remains a smaller segment of the viewing market. Further, for bandwidth purposes and acquisition purposes, it's a much more affordable proposition. 1080p is the grail, but that's a lot of money tied up in the changeover that's not going to amortize anytime soon.


DSE,

Are you are referring to just 1920x1080p not being likely for the next 15 years or are you including 1280x720p60 in that timeframe also? Seems that 1280x720p60 is achieveable now.

2 frames of (1280x720) = 1,843,200 pixels.
1 frame of HD at 1920x1080 = 2,073,600 pixels.

Morris


(This post was edited by Morris on Feb 17, 2005, 8:25 PM)


DSE
Veteran


Feb 17, 2005, 9:26 PM

Post #15 of 28 (3883 views)
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Re: [Morris] Hypothetical Scenario [In reply to] Can't Post

1080p is what I was referring to. It's more than just the bandwidth, it's also the accompanying audio, metadata, and compression tags. I wish it weren't so, but it's not so. www.atsc.org will provide you a lot of info on the standard, proposed next standards (2012) and other goodies related to broadcast if you're interested.

Douglas Spotted Eagle
Author, producer, composer
www.vasst.com
"I enjoy music, long walks at sunset on the beach, and poking dead things with a sharp stick."


Waldemar
Enthusiast


Feb 17, 2005, 10:44 PM

Post #16 of 28 (3864 views)
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Re: [sc] will sd footage match your hd footage? [In reply to] Can't Post

SD and HD are completely different resolutions. Any mixing will show the difference in no uncertain terms. If I were to mix and match, the best option would be mixing HD with Betacam SP...and that has some compatibility issues.
At some point, the shift to HD will happen for everyone. In the long run, it will be a positive shift.
G5 1.8. Final Cut/QT Pro/iMovie/Still Life. GL1. XL1-s


KevinShaw
Veteran

Feb 17, 2005, 11:04 PM

Post #17 of 28 (3859 views)
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Re: [TheReal-C-Mac] will sd footage match your hd footage? [In reply to] Can't Post

"There is no question that HD has more resolution than SD, thus a sharper image. Sharper does not always mean better. "

True enough, but when you see some FX1 footage displayed directly on an HDTV and compare that to footage from a good DV camera on the same TV, there's simply no comparison. If you're just doing SD video there are arguably a few cameras which perform better for that purpose, but you can't take the SD footage you shoot today and make it look like HD when HD becomes commonplace.


Morris
Enthusiast


Feb 18, 2005, 3:14 PM

Post #18 of 28 (3450 views)
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Re: [DSE] Hypothetical Scenario [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
I realize you like P, but the fact remains that 1920 x 1080i has a much sharper detail. No, it doesn't do stills for freeze frame in football as well, but that remains a smaller segment of the viewing market.



Yes I do favor progressive video. 1080i is interlaced and some other things regarding interlaced video that I don't like:

With progressive video it is not just the better stills captured from video with motion. Interlaced video prevents us from using fonts with thin lines or they will flicker. Normal video and scanned photos can have flickering on thin horizontal lines using interlaced video. Conversion of interlaced video to different formats is difficult and much worse than converting from progressive video. Vertical scrolling of text is greatly affected by interlaced video.

Imagine the creative use of ANY font in our productions using progressive video. Folks who adopt progressive video will be able to use any font they want to! Vertical scrolling of text will look terrific at any scroll rate.

Let's let interlaced video fade away and have a progressive future! (no pun intended)
Morris


(This post was edited by Morris on Feb 18, 2005, 3:40 PM)


Morris
Enthusiast


Feb 18, 2005, 4:00 PM

Post #19 of 28 (3436 views)
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Re: [Morris] Hypothetical Scenario [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Yes I do favor progressive video. 1080i is interlaced and some other things regarding interlaced video that I don't like:

With progressive video it is not just the better stills captured from video with motion. Interlaced video prevents us from using fonts with thin lines or they will flicker. Normal video and scanned photos can have flickering on thin horizontal lines using interlaced video. Conversion of interlaced video to different formats is difficult and much worse than converting from progressive video. Vertical scrolling of text is greatly affected by interlaced video.

Imagine the creative use of ANY font in our productions using progressive video. Folks who adopt progressive video will be able to use any font they want to! Vertical scrolling of text will look terrific at any scroll rate.

Let's let interlaced video fade away and have a progressive future! (no pun intended)
Morris



To add to my post above:

A potential couple wants their wedding video in HD. They go to videographer-A and see his/her 1080i HDV video demo in 16x9 on a wide screen HD set. They are wowed by the high resolution and that the 16:9 format is the latest thing.

Now they visit videographer-B and see his/her 720p HD video demo in 16x9 on the exact same brand/model wide screen set. They are again wowed by the high resolution and the 16:9 wide screen format. Both videos will look astounding to the couple and without a side-by-side comparison of the same video playing symultaneously, the couple has no idea that the 1080i might have a slight edge in resolution (if visible even in a side-by-side comparison).

But videographer-B's video is using very romantic fonts that the couple never saw on TV before in their life. They don't really know why but it is something that they never saw before. They don't know that the progressive video is the reason videographer-B is able to use thin lined romantic fonts. The slow motion is ultra smooth and looks out of this world. Vertical scrolling of text looks ultra smooth with zero flicker.

The editing style and content of both videograhers are about the same so content is not a factor. Which videographer will the couple pick?

A company wants to make a commercial. They want to use thin lined fonts. Which video company will they pick?

Morris


(This post was edited by Morris on Feb 18, 2005, 4:12 PM)


DSE
Veteran


Feb 18, 2005, 6:03 PM

Post #20 of 28 (3414 views)
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Re: [Morris] Hypothetical Scenario [In reply to] Can't Post

Umm...you've not created titles in 1080i yet, I'm guessing. You can use very fine fonts.
that said, while the rest of your post is quite nice in theory, it will be only a theory for a very, very long time. The state of the state and currently designated industry standards do not include 1080p. So, we might as well start a discussion on how nice 4K x 3.2K images will be, even though there is no display, camera, or editing option for sub 1M to achieve it all.
Nothing wrong with fantasy, just realize that all the 1080p desire will be for a long time is just that: fantasy.
That said, WHEN you start to work with HDV, or HD, if you want to render non-standard 1080p delivery for DVD, then you'll be able to do so. In fact, you can do that now. The question is, do you have an Avelink or similar player that can pass the p-scan in HD?

Douglas Spotted Eagle
Author, producer, composer
www.vasst.com
"I enjoy music, long walks at sunset on the beach, and poking dead things with a sharp stick."


Morris
Enthusiast


Feb 18, 2005, 7:48 PM

Post #21 of 28 (3401 views)
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Re: [DSE] Hypothetical Scenario [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Umm...you've not created titles in 1080i yet, I'm guessing. You can use very fine fonts.
that said, while the rest of your post is quite nice in theory, it will be only a theory for a very, very long time. The state of the state and currently designated industry standards do not include 1080p. So, we might as well start a discussion on how nice 4K x 3.2K images will be, even though there is no display, camera, or editing option for sub 1M to achieve it all.
Nothing wrong with fantasy, just realize that all the 1080p desire will be for a long time is just that: fantasy.
That said, WHEN you start to work with HDV, or HD, if you want to render non-standard 1080p delivery for DVD, then you'll be able to do so. In fact, you can do that now. The question is, do you have an Avelink or similar player that can pass the p-scan in HD?



My posts have not addressed 1080p for current use at all. I tried to be clear about progressive video now being 720p. I don't know why you keep inferring that I'm comparing 1080i to 1080p. I know and have stated in my posts that 1080p is "down the road". 720p now is not a fantasy.

I really doubt that the typical wedding video client will be able to tell the difference in "resolution" between 1080i or 720p on the size of HD wide screen display that they will be able to afford. It often takes a side-by-side comparison to see the difference between video resolutions. Seeing one alone in one location and then the other at a different location makes the distinction very difficult. I'm sure the bulk of clients will be thrilled with the higher resolution of either 1080i or 720p. But lack of flicker in certain content or ultra smooth slowmo is easier to see even without side-by-side comparisons.

Best regards,
Morris


DSE
Veteran


Feb 18, 2005, 7:56 PM

Post #22 of 28 (3389 views)
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Re: [Morris] Hypothetical Scenario [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
I really doubt that the typical wedding video client will be able to tell the difference in "resolution" between 1080i or 720p on the size of HD wide screen display that they will be able to afford. It often takes a side-by-side comparison to see the difference between video resolutions.


At the moment, you are absolutely correct, and even side by side most folks won't know the difference. Because darn few plasma or LCD screens are a full-resolution monitor. Most are 1600 at best, and few of those around too. That will change with the new Samsungs coming off line shortly, but there are already a lot of images.
So, deliver in 720p. As someone who mostly does broadcast work, we're just going to have to disagree on the p vs i issue. Both have advantages, both have drawbacks. For MOST things, i is simply better at this time. That too, will change in the future. But for the moment, p all you want. It's there for you, might as well take advantage of it.

Douglas Spotted Eagle
Author, producer, composer
www.vasst.com
"I enjoy music, long walks at sunset on the beach, and poking dead things with a sharp stick."


Morris
Enthusiast


Feb 18, 2005, 8:36 PM

Post #23 of 28 (3378 views)
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Re: [DSE] Hypothetical Scenario [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
At the moment, you are absolutely correct, and even side by side most folks won't know the difference. Because darn few plasma or LCD screens are a full-resolution monitor. Most are 1600 at best, and few of those around too. That will change with the new Samsungs coming off line shortly, but there are already a lot of images.
So, deliver in 720p. As someone who mostly does broadcast work, we're just going to have to disagree on the p vs i issue. Both have advantages, both have drawbacks. For MOST things, i is simply better at this time. That too, will change in the future. But for the moment, p all you want. It's there for you, might as well take advantage of it.



No, I won't be attempting to deliver in any HD format including 720p until the HD players and displays have penetrated the mass consumer market and at least a hint of whether HD-DVD or Blu-ray is starting to dominate. That I expect to be at least 2 years from now per your post about Blu-ray players becoming available to consumers in about 16 months from now.

As I've stated before, I think the FX1 and Z1 cameras are great for venues that don't require a mass distribution media. Broadcast is one and I understand why folks like you are jumping in with both feet. If I were in a similar position I would be jumping in with both feet too. I just think both cameras are way premature for the wedding video industry which depends on widely accepted mass distribution media.

I don't mean or want a "HD or no HD" or "HD format" war with you or anyone else. What I do look forward to is both sides bringing up their viewpoints and posting them without hesitation. If there is one thing that the Sony FX1 and Z1 have done that is great is that they have made reading the different forums mighty exciting. Please do not take any of my posts as a personal attack on you or anyone else. I will reciprocate.

Thanks for your contributions to this forum,
Morris


L_awful_Man
Deleted

Mar 15, 2005, 3:52 AM

Post #24 of 28 (3191 views)
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Re: [TheReal-C-Mac] Stay Tuned For A Big Surprise! [In reply to] Can't Post

 

In Reply To
...I can get a great film like image in 24p



Chris,


Sounds Like You Might Want To
Stay Tuned For A Big Surprise!




Best,

---
Groundhog's Pixelated Shadow...


HAVE SOME SYMPATHY FOR THE DEVIL
And don't forget to
LET YOUR VOICE BE HEARD: OVER AND OVER


Laura K
Veteran


Mar 15, 2005, 9:27 AM

Post #25 of 28 (3167 views)
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Re: [sc] will sd footage match your hd footage? [In reply to] Can't Post

Match? No. However, aside from all the other comments here consider this.

I have a Hi-8/Digital 8 that I take with me for b/u and to get things the other cams
just are too busy to get. We have caught some very wonderful, unique moments
on that camera. It's all about how you fit it into the video. No one has ever complained.
The third camera doesn't cost them anything, it's just peace of mind for me and
the abiltiy to add a little "sumpin', sumpin' " to my videos.

People are still going to watch SD footage on their new HD monitor tv's just the
same way that they are over joyed to watch old super 8 movies. However,
they are going to be demanding the newer technology for newer productions
because they will see or have already purchased the difference.
Anyone who has looked at Best Buy or Circuit City lately can tell
you their is a huge difference in "TV's". How soon that demand will blossum? dunno.
A couple in Texas is now offering all HD weddings. Their website does a fair job
of marketing that they do. I would be interested to see how they are
doing with it.

If you want to combine footage, think editing.
L


"... it seems that if you're passionate about something, it freaks people out. You're considered bizarre or eccentric. To me, it just means you know who you are." - director Tim Burton


Today's mighty oak is just yesterday's nut that held its ground.

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