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Home: Video University Forums: Mac Video:
FCP & color correction via IntensityPro?

 

 


MLiebergot
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Nov 26, 2007, 10:09 AM

Post #1 of 17 (613 views)
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FCP & color correction via IntensityPro? Can't Post

I am running the Intensity Pro on a 2.66 Quad Core MacPro running Leopard with all current updates to OSX and Intensity Pro.
HDV footage catured either HDMI or Firewire (FW) from Canon HV20.

I am attempting to preview HDV footage via S-Video to my JVC Production monitor (properly callibrated). I don't curently have a HD monitor to preview HDV footage via HDMI (will when funds allow). So I am just attempting to preivew SD footage from HD timeline for color grading purposes (I use video scopes to properly set color levels).

Here are my current settings:
Project: HDV 1080i 60
External Preview: Intensity Pro for video (720 x 486) and audio or Apple Firewire (720 x 480)

The footage goes out to the monitor fine, but the color seems much lighter than if I preview to the same monitor via Firewire (FW to Canopus ADVC100 box to JVC Monitor).

Is this normal for the color space to be that different from S-Video footage and Firewire.

I assume that it is since the FW connection is digital and the S-Video is analog.

I just wanted to be sure before going forward.

I will eventually pickup a HD monitor to go out of the Intensity Pro via HDMI.

Thanks for your help,
Michael


Timothy Harry
Veteran


Nov 26, 2007, 10:31 AM

Post #2 of 17 (608 views)
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Re: [MLiebergot] FCP & color correction via IntensityPro? [In reply to] Can't Post

if it was composite I might say it was because it was unterminated....but here I have no clue. How are you monitoring via firewire would be my next question. I thought you couldnt monitor HDV over a firewire connection......

Michael, how would you describe lighter? do you mean not as saturated, the screen is dimmer, the colors are blown out etc.

Tim Harry

Bandwagon Media
Odessa, TX

"I'd rather be a conservative nut job than a liberal with no nuts and no job."




MLiebergot
Veteran


Nov 26, 2007, 11:37 AM

Post #3 of 17 (603 views)
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Re: [Timothy Harry] FCP & color correction via IntensityPro? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
if it was composite I might say it was because it was unterminated....but here I have no clue. How are you monitoring via firewire would be my next question. I thought you couldnt monitor HDV over a firewire connection......

Michael, how would you describe lighter? do you mean not as saturated, the screen is dimmer, the colors are blown out etc.

Tim thanks for the reply. I was hoping that you would chime in.
It seems that there is a way to monitor your HDV footage in an HDV project via Firewire, but you have to change your video output setting in the Audio/Video settings in FCP. What I don't know is how accurate it will be, as I don't know if I am getting a proper SD color space preview or rather a converted hybrid SD/HDV preview (splitting the difference). I'm more concerened with getting an accurate SD preview as my final delivery wil be SD 16:9 DVD.

This is my current setup for computer and monitor:
Intensity Pro Card: Video out via composite RCA Y cable to S-Video (Y cable connected to S-video to BNC cable) to JVC monitor (I can't use component (RBG) cable as my monitor only has a BNC composite input)
Firewire: MAC FW out to Canopus ADVC100 box. Canopus ADVC100> JVC Mini DV SVHS deck> JVC Monitor

In FCP my settings are:
HDV 1080i 60
Video out settings in Audio/Video setup is changed to either:
Intensity Pro: (for Audio & Video) Video is set to preview at NTSC 720 x 486 via S-Video to JVC monitor
Firewire: Video preview (output) is set to Apple Firewire NTSC 720 x 480. This enables me to see the HDV footage via Firewire output on my JVC monitor.

Now when I preview my footage via Intensity Pro my footage seems to be lighter with less contrast and color detail, when compared to my FW outputted preview.
Colors are not blown out, and the screen doesn't seem dimmer, but lacking the puch that the FW preview gives me.
As I said the picture seem to be a bit softer and lacking in contrast and color detail when compared to the FW outputed preview.

The best way overall to see what is more accurate, is most likely going to be color grading both sequences seperately according to what I am previewing and viewing, then render them as seperate files to a DVD for previewing.

Michael

Cameras: I do use them.
Audio: Yes, it does come with audio if you like.
Software: I am learning...
Support: I need all that i can get.
Computer: MAC BABY!


Timothy Harry
Veteran


Nov 26, 2007, 12:05 PM

Post #4 of 17 (598 views)
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Re: [MLiebergot] FCP & color correction via IntensityPro? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Tim thanks for the reply. I was hoping that you would chime in.


man you know how to make a guy feel good!


It sounds to me like maybe the adapter combo is to blame here. Is there not a composite out on the intensity pro card? SVideo looks better than composite, but I am pretty sure you are losing all advantages of it by converting it anyway.... If you need an adapter from BNC to RCA you can find them at radio shack for 6 bucks or so, or over at my favorite bulk supply store online at http://markertek.com the only thing you need to know is whether you need male BNC to Female RCA or Female BNC to Male RCA......It will depend on your cable type. If you need to switch multiple composite sources on your production monitor, you might look again at radio shack for a 4 way device selector like this http://www.radioshack.com/...mp;parentPage=search

I had to look really hard to find what I was looking for on my KONA card, but eventually I figured out that I had to set the output in my control panel to composite and connect the composite cable to the Y connection on my KONA box i got composite video out or in depending on my setting.

Tim Harry

Bandwagon Media
Odessa, TX

"I'd rather be a conservative nut job than a liberal with no nuts and no job."




MLiebergot
Veteran


Nov 26, 2007, 12:26 PM

Post #5 of 17 (596 views)
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Re: [Timothy Harry] FCP & color correction via IntensityPro? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

In Reply To
Tim thanks for the reply. I was hoping that you would chime in.

man you know how to make a guy feel good!

It sounds to me like maybe the adapter combo is to blame here. Is there not a composite out on the intensity pro card?
S-Video looks better than composite, but I am pretty sure you are losing all advantages of it by converting it anyway....
If you need an adapter from BNC to RCA you can find them at radio shack for 6 bucks or so, or over at my favorite bulk supply store online at http://markertek.com the only thing you need to know is whether you need male BNC to Female RCA or Female BNC to Male RCA......It will depend on your cable type. If you need to switch multiple composite sources on your production monitor, you might look again at radio shack for a 4 way device selector like this http://www.radioshack.com/...mp;parentPage=search

The Intensity Pro card, does not have a composite out, but rather component only.
However you are able to output uisng 2 of the component output cables and a due composite RCA to S-Video cable.
The only problem that I have is that my JCV TM-A101GU monitor (which isn't the best) is not setup to receive S-Video input. It only has SDI BNC input capability.

This is from the Black-Magic website:
To connect your Intensity Pro card to S-video hardware:
  1. Install the version 1.5 or newer drivers for Intensity.
  2. Take an S-video breakout cable and connect the S-video connector to the S-video hardware.
  3. At the other end of the S-video cable, you will find the two RCA connectors.
  4. When connecting to the S-video input of Intensity Pro, connect the colored "Y" connector to the green connector of the Intensity Pro cable. Connect the white "C" connector to the blue cable of the Intensity Pro card.
  5. When connecting to the S-video output of Intensity Pro, connect the colored "Y" connector to the blue connector of the Intensity Pro cable. Connect the white "C" connector to the red cable of the Intensity Pro card.
  6. Go to the Intensity system preferences or control panel and set the Video connections for input and/or output to "S-video".
  7. Sometimes you will want to capture from an S-video device but output to a component analog monitor. If that is the case, your input and output video connections should be set to S-video and component ("Y, B-Y, R-Y") respectively.
Looking at the setup again, I might have to take a look at the Intensity manager. I believe that I ahve outpu setup for both S-Video and HDMI. I doubt that this makes a difference, but this might be a problem. I really think that the problem is the connection setup.
Thanks again for all of you help.

Michael

Cameras: I do use them.
Audio: Yes, it does come with audio if you like.
Software: I am learning...
Support: I need all that i can get.
Computer: MAC BABY!


gl
Veteran

Nov 26, 2007, 2:27 PM

Post #6 of 17 (593 views)
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Re: [MLiebergot] FCP & color correction via IntensityPro? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

Is this normal for the color space to be that different from S-Video footage and Firewire.



The two are absolutely different. The Intensity card is outputting a 4:2:2 color space signal while FW is 4:1:1. Stick with the component output as your trusted source.

-gl

“Always bear in mind that your own resolution to succeed is more important than any one thing.” ~ Abraham Lincoln


MLiebergot
Veteran


Nov 26, 2007, 2:52 PM

Post #7 of 17 (590 views)
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Re: [gl] FCP & color correction via IntensityPro? [In reply to] Can't Post

So even though I am outputing a preview via Y/C S-video, the color space is still 4:2:2. I undertand that teh Intensity is outputting 4:2:2, but I wa under teh impression that it wold only be via HDMI or full use of teh Y/P/B Component cables.
Also if the Component (which are actually composite cables at this point) is 4:2:2 as you say, then shouldn't that have more color detail than the Firewire 4:1:1 output?

I think the problem might be my cable setup, as I have (from Intensity card) a Y dual RCA cable to S-Video cable in use. That cable is being fed to a S-Video to composite BNC cable, which is then plugged into my JVC monitors composite BNC port.

I might be losing some information in the connection.

I really wish that my JVC monitor had a Y/C S-Video port, to avoid having to run another adapter in the mix.

I might just bite the bullet eventually if I can't get this straightened out and get rid of the '10" JVC TM-A101GU monitor and pickup a '17" JVC TMH-150CGU with IF-C01COMG Component card.
The TMH-150CGU already has S-video inputs, and the component breakout card will enable me to use the Y/P/B right from the Intensity Pro Card.

It has better resolution (10' only has 300 lines and the 17' has 750 lines), natually widescreen and switchable (the 10' is the opposite 4:3 and switchable 16:9) and already is setup for S-video

In your opinion would the TMH-150CGU work for good output preview of HD footage for color work?
Mind you this is only for color correction for footage that is destined to go to SD 16:9 DVD.
I will venetually pickup a HD monitor to run HDMI out of the Intensity Pro for color work.

Thanks again for your insite,
Michael


Timothy Harry
Veteran


Nov 26, 2007, 3:22 PM

Post #8 of 17 (586 views)
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Re: [MLiebergot] FCP & color correction via IntensityPro? [In reply to] Can't Post

ok... not to give the spend the money answer, but honestly I think your cabling setup is to blame on this one, frankly I am surprised that the svid conversion thing even works. I cant see a reason to buy an SD monitor for anything, because you will be having to respend in 2-3 years for an HD anyway, and definitely not another 250 for a component card. Instead try this:

look at a simple SVHS deck to do the conversion from Svid to composite, then running the output to the monitor, should cost you 130-150 bucks, plus you get a nice VCR to do video vonversions with.

The other option is to purchase something like the JVC 20" monitor with SDI (You think component looks good....SDI blows component away!) that monitor can be found at B&H for ~2600. I have the Panasonic BTLH1700W. I love it and there isnt an input type it does not have. I think the picture was a bit sharper on it as well, plus it had the built in waveform monitor, making one less thing to buy as well. I think I paid ~2800 for it and it now has a $250 rebate.

Tim Harry

Bandwagon Media
Odessa, TX

"I'd rather be a conservative nut job than a liberal with no nuts and no job."




MLiebergot
Veteran


Nov 26, 2007, 4:22 PM

Post #9 of 17 (582 views)
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Re: [Timothy Harry] FCP & color correction via IntensityPro? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
ok... not to give the spend the money answer, but honestly I think your cabling setup is to blame on this one, frankly I am surprised that the svid conversion thing even works. I cant see a reason to buy an SD monitor for anything, because you will be having to respend in 2-3 years for an HD anyway, and definitely not another 250 for a component card. Instead try this:

look at a simple SVHS deck to do the conversion from Svid to composite, then running the output to the monitor, should cost you 130-150 bucks, plus you get a nice VCR to do video vonversions with.

The other option is to purchase something like the JVC 20" monitor with SDI (You think component looks good....SDI blows component away!) that monitor can be found at B&H for ~2600. I have the Panasonic BTLH1700W. I love it and there isnt an input type it does not have. I think the picture was a bit sharper on it as well, plus it had the built in waveform monitor, making one less thing to buy as well. I think I paid ~2800 for it and it now has a $250 rebate.

I was thinking the same exact thing. I really think that the problem is the S-Video to composite cabling.

I refuse to purchase anymore hardware for my MAC, especially expensive such as KONA card or AJA IOHD, even thought they are gerat additions.
I think what I am going to do is hunker down and do a good search for an HDMI monitor (TV or Monitor) and work with the Intensity card as it was intended.

I'm not to concerned about BluGun or extensive color coor controls. But rather what produces the best image in the smallest form factor for my budget. Realistically that's either a '24 Monitor, like the BenQ FP241W (which will give me 1900 x 1200 HDMI output) or a TV set like the Samsung LN-T3253H (Which only gives me 1366 x 768 and might produce some artifacting, but will produce a very good image for what I need) or the Sharp LC32D62U (which gives me true 108P capability in a small form factor). I am leaning towards more of a TV and less of a monitor, because the LCD TV will generally have more picture options. The Sharp gives me true 1080P with no scaling, but has less picture options than teh Samsung. But the Samsung has only a 1366 x 768 pixel size so I would most likely experience more artifacting that isn't actually there.

Either way I am thinking too much, which is typical me.
I need to just go out and get the best affrodable option available to me (I already did with the Intensity). After all I only do a a few coorperate gigs and mainly event video. What are people watching their videos on consumer LCD/Plasma sets.

Michael

Cameras: I do use them.
Audio: Yes, it does come with audio if you like.
Software: I am learning...
Support: I need all that i can get.
Computer: MAC BABY!


MLiebergot
Veteran


Nov 26, 2007, 8:24 PM

Post #10 of 17 (569 views)
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Re: [Timothy Harry] FCP & color correction via IntensityPro? [In reply to] Can't Post

Figured out what the problem was.
As expected, there was a problem in the Intensity Settings control panel.

The IRE was set for 7.5 for use in USA
and it should have been set for
0.0 IRE as use for in Japan

Now my Firewire preview and Intensity Pro preview look the same as far as richness and color detail.

All is good with the world again.

No immediate need for a HD monitor yet.
But I still plan on getting one for HDMI use in the near future.

Thanks again for steering me in the right direction.

Michael

Cameras: I do use them.
Audio: Yes, it does come with audio if you like.
Software: I am learning...
Support: I need all that i can get.
Computer: MAC BABY!


Timothy Harry
Veteran


Nov 27, 2007, 10:20 AM

Post #11 of 17 (559 views)
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Re: [MLiebergot] FCP & color correction via IntensityPro? [In reply to] Can't Post

I did not even think of the setup deal.....I actually ran into that 2 weekends ago when an ad agency insisted that I have their commercial dumped back to beta, because me giving them the file at full quality still could not match beta.....i shook my head and borrowed a buddies deck to make my masters and I had the same problem. Now I feel like a complete idiot....Glad you got your problem worked out though. Happy editing!

Tim Harry

Bandwagon Media
Odessa, TX

"I'd rather be a conservative nut job than a liberal with no nuts and no job."




gl
Veteran

Nov 27, 2007, 11:37 AM

Post #12 of 17 (554 views)
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Re: [MLiebergot] FCP & color correction via IntensityPro? [In reply to] Can't Post

I does sound like your monitor is the weak link. Yes, if you downgrade the component signal by sending it through a single BNC cable then you are not really accomplishing anything as far as accurate color goes.

You have to make sure that the signal is pure by the time it reaches the monitor and the only way to do that is to keep it component or digital all the way through. However, you should also recognize that the monitor will have it's own characteristics that will influence the look. Even the $30k color correction monitors aren't perfect but they are really close.

-gl

“Always bear in mind that your own resolution to succeed is more important than any one thing.” ~ Abraham Lincoln


MLiebergot
Veteran


Nov 27, 2007, 11:57 AM

Post #13 of 17 (551 views)
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Re: [gl] FCP & color correction via IntensityPro? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I does sound like your monitor is the weak link. Yes, if you downgrade the component signal by sending it through a single BNC cable then you are not really accomplishing anything as far as accurate color goes.

You have to make sure that the signal is pure by the time it reaches the monitor and the only way to do that is to keep it component or digital all the way through. However, you should also recognize that the monitor will have it's own characteristics that will influence the look. Even the $30k color correction monitors aren't perfect but they are really close.

-gl

Thanks GL, as I said I was able to identify the problem. Wrong IRE setting in the INtensity Control Panel. I set it to 0 IRE and all was fine.

But I do agree with wanting to use straight component out from the Intensity Pro to a production monitor. Which is why I will most liekly get rid of my curent JVC monitor and get a TMH-150CGU monitor as well as a Component card to install in it. This way I can go staright out from the Intensity Pro via YPB comonent directly to my monitor and stay all digital.
Yes the signal won't be HD, but it will still be digital all the way. My main concern with using the external monitor anyway is to get the most accurate color grading that I can before I output. I always use scopes, so I know if my image is legal or not, and even color correct by using the scopes as well, so this will be more for a visual only.
Then I can get a HD LCD monitor to run HDMI out to preview HD when needed.

The only thing I have to figure out is if it's more important to get teh HD monitor first since I already ahve the SD monitor (even if it's not 100% accurate).


Michael

Cameras: I do use them.
Audio: Yes, it does come with audio if you like.
Software: I am learning...
Support: I need all that i can get.
Computer: MAC BABY!


Timothy Harry
Veteran


Nov 27, 2007, 3:14 PM

Post #14 of 17 (549 views)
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Re: [MLiebergot] FCP & color correction via IntensityPro? [In reply to] Can't Post

Michael,

I was looking at doing a similar setup with an SD monitor for correction and an HD consumer display for HD Preview. I ultimately decided against it going with an HD color correction monitor and I LOVE IT! I spent about 1500 bucks more on that setup than I would doing an SD monitor and a small HD monitor, but it cleans up the desk clutter, the signal path is fully digital, and the picture is better on that monitor than any HDTV I could view it on. Definitely take a look at the LCD HD monitors from JVC and Panasonic before you jump.

Tim Harry

Bandwagon Media
Odessa, TX

"I'd rather be a conservative nut job than a liberal with no nuts and no job."




MLiebergot
Veteran


Nov 27, 2007, 3:24 PM

Post #15 of 17 (546 views)
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Re: [Timothy Harry] FCP & color correction via IntensityPro? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Michael,

I was looking at doing a similar setup with an SD monitor for correction and an HD consumer display for HD Preview. I ultimately decided against it going with an HD color correction monitor and I LOVE IT! I spent about 1500 bucks more on that setup than I would doing an SD monitor and a small HD monitor, but it cleans up the desk clutter, the signal path is fully digital, and the picture is better on that monitor than any HDTV I could view it on. Definitely take a look at the LCD HD monitors from JVC and Panasonic before you jump.

Tim, how is the accuracy viewing both SD and HD footage on an HD LCD.
This is the only reason that I am not considering going with one display like the JVC and going with 2 seperate displays, one for SD and one for HD.

Trust me I would prefer going with one for clutters sake, and even pay more for one unit as opposed to 2. But I have to be able to view both SD and HD images accurately and clearly.

Michael

Cameras: I do use them.
Audio: Yes, it does come with audio if you like.
Software: I am learning...
Support: I need all that i can get.
Computer: MAC BABY!


Timothy Harry
Veteran


Nov 27, 2007, 3:54 PM

Post #16 of 17 (542 views)
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Re: [MLiebergot] FCP & color correction via IntensityPro? [In reply to] Can't Post

well to tell ya the truth, none of my clients have griped about it and it meets broadcast specs for TV commercials. THe picture isnt as clear as HD, but it still is clearer than the old SD monitor I had before, but I attribute that to going from firewire out to SVID like you are doing now to a full SDI signal. SDI....wow....where was SDI 10 years ago when I was helping my dad terminate the component cables for our TV booth at the church....not only is SDI higher quality than componenet, it is also just 1 cable, and easy to run.

I have the panasonic BTLH1700W. my favorite part about it is the built in waveform monitor......

Tim Harry

Bandwagon Media
Odessa, TX

"I'd rather be a conservative nut job than a liberal with no nuts and no job."




gl
Veteran

Nov 28, 2007, 5:45 PM

Post #17 of 17 (515 views)
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Re: [Timothy Harry] FCP & color correction via IntensityPro? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
SDI....wow....where was SDI 10 years ago when I was helping my dad terminate the component cables for our TV booth at the church....not only is SDI higher quality than componenet, it is also just 1 cable, and easy to run.


It was sitting on an engineers workdesk with marketers and sales managers breathing down his neck so they could put it on the BVW decks and charge $150k for it so they could keep paying the lease on their M5.

That's where it was ;)

-gl

“Always bear in mind that your own resolution to succeed is more important than any one thing.” ~ Abraham Lincoln