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Home: Video University Forums: Mac Video:
capture problem, help me if you can...

 
 


amcam
Novice

Mar 28, 2006, 3:23 PM

Post #1 of 13 (1600 views)
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capture problem, help me if you can... Can't Post
Hi all,
I have a recurring problem involving both FCP and Imovie.
I teach a video production class at a high school and, for now, we use Imovie on the student computers (Emacs and Imacs-not up to FCP specs).
Teacher computer: dual 2.5 G5, OS 10.3.5, FCP 4.5, Imovie 4.0.1, QT 6.5.2.
Home computer: dual 1 gig g4, OS 10.3.9, FCP 3.x, Imovie 5.x, QT 6.5.2
Student computers: Emacs 1 gig, OS 10.x, Imovie 4.0.1

Problem: I attach a camcorder. If an external hard drive is attached (even on its own bus) the camera will not be recognized at all.

Bigger Problem: In both Imovie and FCP the camera will be recognized. Device control will work. The camera will respond. However, in play mode the footage will only appear on the camcorder’s LCD screen, not in the Imovie or FCP window. Time code on computer window will not advance in play mode but will in fast-forward and reverse. Capture now (FCP) and import (Imovie) will not work.

Things I have tried:
Resetting pram.
Repair permissions.
Different camera
Different firewire cable.
Different tapes.
Trashing preferences.

Occasionally one of these restored the ability to capture but not more than once.

What has worked, so far consistently, is booting down. Unplugging all devices and the Mac, waiting 5 minutes, then booting back up. This even restored the ability to have the firewire drive installed on my G4 (which has a third party pci 800 card) capture footage. On the G5 with an 800 port in back and 400 port in front, this would not work. The camera will not be recognized when the drive is plugged in—even un-mounted and off.

Though I can capture after unplugging all, the problem keeps reappearing and is getting tedious, to say the least.

The one thing I can think of that all these computers have in common except the student computers is having FCP and Imovie installed on the same computer. The student computers will occasionally have trouble recognizing the camera but the usual turning off the cam or re-plugging the firewire cable or reopening Imovie will fix it.

A couple of time before losing the ability to play and capture, I had rewound a tape with the camcorder attached to the firewire port.

Can anyone offer any help? Please!


DepModeFan
Novice

Mar 28, 2006, 3:56 PM

Post #2 of 13 (1595 views)
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Re: [amcam] capture problem, help me if you can... [In reply to] Can't Post
That's a tough one...I had a similar problem years ago (w/FCP 2.0 and the G3's in my classroom). I had external firewire drives (Lacies) connected to each of our editing stations. I eventually cracked open the shells and made the hard drives internal...which oddly enough fixed the problems. At the end of all those headaches what I wanted to do was take a sledge hammer to all the machines in the classroom!

Off the top of my head I can't see the problem. Have you posted this in other places? Like at 2-Pop or at one of the Apple Discussion Forums? I realize how frustrating these problems can be.


RatVega
Enthusiast


Mar 29, 2006, 7:45 PM

Post #3 of 13 (1560 views)
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Re: [amcam] capture problem, help me if you can... [In reply to] Can't Post
I'd start with getting all the systems up to 10.3.9 if you can't/won't go to Tiger. What you're seeing (IMHO) are basic firewire issues like I've seen in the past. getting everything up to date should cure thiese issues, though it may take a clean install.

I think that if you fix the basic firewire issues, the capture issues will probably go away. If not, you've at least eliminated a lot of possible bad actors.





______________________________________________________________
Currently on a loaded 2.5GHz G5 dualie/5GB/1TB internal RAID/dual 19" monitors. Final Cut Studio, Adobe Suite, Boris RED. Shooting with Canon.

VU California Crew, Inland Empire Sub-Chapter (paragraph?)


amcam
Novice

Apr 2, 2006, 1:49 PM

Post #4 of 13 (1546 views)
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Re: [DepModeFan] capture problem, help me if you can... [In reply to] Can't Post
hi, yeah i tried at creative cow but most of them are FCP users and don't play much with Imovie. I could try 2-pop but I find adivce there is inconsistent and not monitored much.


amcam
Novice

Apr 2, 2006, 1:59 PM

Post #5 of 13 (1545 views)
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Re: [RatVega] capture problem, help me if you can... [In reply to] Can't Post
The computer that is giving me the biggest headache is my G4, which is at 10.3.9. The G5 apparently uses the same bus for the 800 and 400 port so that explains why I can't connect both a VTR and an external drive. I agree with you that it is a firewire problem. When an order comes in for the school machines--I will install OS 10.4 and the latest Ilife on all the school computers including the g5. I'll match this configuration at home. The sad thing there though is I will loose FCP 4.5 on the teacher computer since FCP 4.5 cannot use QT 7. And on education copies there is no upgrade price. 4.5 is only one generation old, seems kind of cheap there is no fix to work with the latest QT. Oh well.

Thanks


ThomasG
User

Apr 2, 2006, 2:38 PM

Post #6 of 13 (1540 views)
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Re: [amcam] capture problem, help me if you can... [In reply to] Can't Post
One common repair for odd Firewire (or USB) problems is to download and apply the Combined System Updater on top of your existing OS install. In your case you'd apply the 10.3.9 combined updater on top of your existing 10.3.9. It is not uncommon for Firewire or USB issues to appear after doing an incremental update, and the combined updater will repair this. I don't know if that's the reason for your issue but it does no harm to try this possible fix.


amcam
Novice

Apr 2, 2006, 3:53 PM

Post #7 of 13 (1533 views)
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Re: [ThomasG] capture problem, help me if you can... [In reply to] Can't Post
Interesting. I downloaded the 10.3.9 combo update and installed it. I put in a new tape in my camcorder attached as a deck. Before opening Movie I rewound the tape. I opened Imovie and hit play. And as you predicted Imovie was now able to read the tape on the viewer. I stopped the tape using device control. I rewound the tape. When I hit play again the movie would not appear in the viewer but did on the cam’s LCD. I tired quitting imovie and reopening. No luck. I tired turning off the camera and back on. no luck. I tried unplugging the camera’s firewire cable, no luck. In other words, somehow rewinding the tape while using device control is having a negative effect on the firewire connection. At least until I update my software, I will try to avoid this.


ThomasG
User

Apr 2, 2006, 8:55 PM

Post #8 of 13 (1526 views)
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Re: [amcam] capture problem, help me if you can... [In reply to] Can't Post
I'm glad you had it working for a moment. I do know that iMovie needs to be Quit and reopened after it loses connection with a camcorder. But I don't know why that didn't resolve the issue for you this time.

A couple other applications for importing video from a camcorder are Vidi (freeware) and the VirtualDV application that Apple includes in the Firewire SDK21 Developer kit (also free). However, if you use those you'll need lots of hard drive space because iMovie will copy the captured video again when it imports it from your hard drive. You also won't get the benefit of the automatic clip breaks where the camera was stopped or paused.


RatVega
Enthusiast


Apr 2, 2006, 11:20 PM

Post #9 of 13 (1515 views)
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Re: [amcam] capture problem, help me if you can... [In reply to] Can't Post
In Reply To
The computer that is giving me the biggest headache is my G4, which is at 10.3.9.
The G5 apparently uses the same bus for the 800 and 400 port so that explains why I can't connect both a VTR and an external drive. I agree with you that it is a firewire problem.

I did a little quick research on your shared bus statement but couldn't verify it. It's possible that Apple adopted the Oxford 912 chip which appears to make your statement plausible. In any case, this shouldn't be an issue unless you have a FW800 device that is continuously saturating the (shared) bus. I (and many others) routinely populate the FW bus with multiple devices. I'm not sure what the maximum number is, but I've daisychained 7 (including my VTR) before problems set in at capture.

When an order comes in for the school machines--I will install OS 10.4 and the latest Ilife on all the school computers including the g5. I'll match this configuration at home. The sad thing there though is I will loose FCP 4.5 on the teacher computer since FCP 4.5 cannot use QT 7.

This isn't correct. I have two systems using FCP 4.5 (one with both FCP 4.5 and FCP 5) on Tiger. I was going to re-install FCP 4.5 on my G5 after I loaded Final Cut Studio, but decided that the XML export (back to 4.5) was a reasonable alternative.

And on education copies there is no upgrade price. 4.5 is only one generation old, seems kind of cheap there is no fix to work with the latest QT. Oh well.

FCP 4.5 is absolutely viable product for your environment (mine too for a couple of machines) but as stated above, we're using it in the Tiger environment without problems.





______________________________________________________________
Currently on a loaded 2.5GHz G5 dualie/5GB/1TB internal RAID/dual 19" monitors. Final Cut Studio, Adobe Suite, Boris RED. Shooting with Canon.

VU California Crew, Inland Empire Sub-Chapter (paragraph?)


amcam
Novice

Apr 17, 2006, 1:29 AM

Post #10 of 13 (1435 views)
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Re: [RatVega] capture problem, help me if you can... [In reply to] Can't Post
Hi RatVega,
I was away for a couple of weeks, just got back from the Philippines and Hong Kong. Took a small Sony hc90 with me and came back with a couple hours of footage.

I appreciate your response and inquires. On the G5, all is working well unless I hook up both the firewire drive on the back port (800) and the camera to the front port (400). It just won’t allow device control with this configuration. I have not tried daisy chaining because I don’t have a cam to 800 cable. Still it sounds like I should be able to capture to an external firewire drive without issues. Could there be a firmware update for the apple firewire card? I do not know the install history of the G5 at school. The system was there when I got there and the original discs are missing so I can’t try a fresh install. However I will be installing Tiger on it when the order arrives.

As for updating the os/qt and continuing to use FCP 4.5 — I have read different experiences from end users. Some report, as you do, that all is well; others report they needed to reinstall a previous version of QT. I have nothing to loose by trying it since I need to have the teacher computer using the same version Imovie as the student computers.

When I install Tiger, I plan on doing a clean install. All my movie projects are on an external firewire drive and all my teacher files can be copied there as well. Very little data. The only tricky thing I can think of is finding the preference files for Excel and backing that up since I have a lot of spreadsheets I use for both teaching and logging tapes and so forth. I need to get copies of the app install DVDs as well.

On the G4 the problem is much worse. It just will not maintain device control. I can connect an 800 drive on its own port (third party card). But I keep losing the picture in the viewer and then nothing will capture. I have read about this symptom on various forums but no definitive answer as to what is causing it. I have no problems updating my software on my g4 if that will help. I also had two ram chips go bad so I am down to 512mb. I will replace them though I can’t see this effecting device control in Imovie. If after upgrading the software and ram, I am still having this problem, I could try replacing the built in firewire card with another third party one.

On my home g4, I undated to 10.3.9 when my G4 was under repairs at the apple store. An internal fan broke and the unit got over heated. It was still under warranty and they replaced quite a few components including the motherboard, the ram chip, fans, superdrive, etc. They gave me a laptop loaner. I used the migration utility built into the os x installer to first load my system on to the laptop and then back onto the repaired G4. It was an option under the fresh install, the migration utility then moved over all my files. I’ve had no problems until this issue.

Which do you think is a better system for a G4? 10.3.9 or 10.4.x?

Thanks, Craig


RatVega
Enthusiast


Apr 17, 2006, 4:31 PM

Post #11 of 13 (1409 views)
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Re: [amcam] capture problem, help me if you can... [In reply to] Can't Post
Glad you had a good trip...

I'm still bothered by the way you refer to the rear FW ports on your G5 - You should have both a FW400 port and a FW 800 port back there and I've never heard of any problems associated with using both (or all) ports simultaneously.

On the update issue, we all find it a bit scary and yes, some people have had problems. But taking a longer look, out of the (ocer) one million "legal" FCP installations out there, there are bound to be a few problems. The problem is there's no place that we all go to post that it worked great for us, only a place to post our problems... I've had a few catastrophies (kernal panics, mystic malfunctions, etc.) along the way but in the main things get better with each upgrade. I agree that getting all your systems on the same page is most important. As an aside, there is a "crossgrade/upgrade" offer out right now that can get you into Final Cut Studio from FCP 4.5 at very attractive pricing. If you have a bit of budget you may be able to expand your capabilities cheap.

You are 100% correct about a clean install of Tiger, this is very important. If you have Disk Warrior, make sure to run it on ALL the drives before beginning. Tiger wants a very pristine system drive to install well and many Panther systems are slightly corrupt but still running well. The extra step is worth it for the stability.

Re: G4, at 512MB you're well below the minimum RAM compliment (at least IMHO) and it could indeed be part of the problem. Bringing the RAM and OS up to snuff, your FW problems may go away. One thing to check is whether the Apple Sysyem Profiler can see devices attached to the various ports. If they can't bee seen by ASP, then there may be a hardware problem. If they can, then the problem pretty much has to be in the app software and that's soluable.

I am running all my G4s on Tiger and they all like it. This appears to be a case where an upgrade actually benefits the older machines.

Good Luck!





______________________________________________________________
Currently on a loaded 2.5GHz G5 dualie/5GB/1TB internal RAID/dual 19" monitors. Final Cut Studio, Adobe Suite, Boris RED. Shooting with Canon.

VU California Crew, Inland Empire Sub-Chapter (paragraph?)


mooblie
Novice


Apr 20, 2006, 8:04 AM

Post #12 of 13 (1363 views)
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Re: [amcam] capture problem, help me if you can... [In reply to] Can't Post
Well, I use FCP 4.5 with QT7 successfully (admittedly on Tiger 10.4.5) - it might be worth trying QT7?

mooblie at HeadSpin


RatVega
Enthusiast


Apr 20, 2006, 2:45 PM

Post #13 of 13 (1359 views)
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Re: [mooblie] capture problem, help me if you can... [In reply to] Can't Post
QT7 has a number of advantages on the newer machines and is required for some apps. Make sure you check compatibility on your older machines, both hardware and application software. Keep a disk image of QT 6.5.2 handy just in case...





______________________________________________________________
Currently on a loaded 2.5GHz G5 dualie/5GB/1TB internal RAID/dual 19" monitors. Final Cut Studio, Adobe Suite, Boris RED. Shooting with Canon.

VU California Crew, Inland Empire Sub-Chapter (paragraph?)