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Home: Video University Forums: Mac Video:
multi-cam question

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Scott Brooks
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Jun 8, 2008, 5:23 PM

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multi-cam question	Can't Post

I'm getting ready to start a dance recital with two cameras. I've watched a tutorial, but I'm still a bit confused on lining the clips up where they're in sync.

What I did was place two clips in the timeline to get them in sync. Each had an in and out point and played back together without issues. I then pulled those two clips off the timeline and put them into a folder. From those two clips I made a multi clip.

The video seems to be in sync, but the audio is nowhere close to being with the video. The audio is way ahead of the video regardless of whether I use a1 & a2 or a3 & a4.

If I can't get this then I'll go back to my old way of resizing the clips and marking the timeline ... which kind of sucks since this is supposed to be a great upgrade.

Thanks

Scott

videogal
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Jun 9, 2008, 1:01 AM

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Re: [Sparky] multi-cam question [In reply to]	Can't Post

Audio is an issue with multi-cam. I have only used it a couple of times as it is kind of hard to set up.

The issue is - say you have 2 tapes, A and B - and they each have audio. Each time you switch from A to B, it switches to the audio from A to the audio from B. This will sound odd !

What you need to do is this -
Decide on which audio you want to use (for this example, say you choose A).
Detach the audio from A.
Use V1 and V2 for your video tracks.
Lay the audio independently - a5 & a6, and not as attached audio clips. Delete any audio in a1, a2, a3, a4.
Synch your audio and video - lock your a5 and a6.
Now go through and do the multi-edit.

There is a book : The Focal Easy Guide to Final Cut Pro 6
http://www.amazon.com/Focal-Easy-Guide-Final-Cut/dp/0240810090/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1212985816&sr=8-1

that gives a pretty good explanation of how it works.

Consider learning to live-switch - it saves a ton of time post-recital - I shot recital 18 of 19 today, last one for the season is Tuesday - yeah! These couple of weeks where our dance recitals overlap the beginning of wedding season are a killer ! We live switch - we can input and master our recitals pretty quickly, usually have them masterd within a few days and delivered in a few weeks (we have to or we just get too swamped!)

Of course - an exception to every rule - we arrived at noon for our 2:15 recital to find the theater without electricity. I live in Omaha NE and we got hit with a minor tornado - some home and business damage, a chunk of people without power, but as far as I know no deaths or serious injury - but that is why they had no power.

A bunch of us called every venue we could think of - high schools, churches, community centers - to no avail - then put plan B into effect - the lobby of the theater has 2 stories of windows (kind of a balcony thing overlooks the lobby) - the teacher borrowed a portable dance floor, we pushed chairs and benches around to make seating for the parents, I had a great spot in the balcony to oversee it all, someone ran to Best Buy and got a honkin' boom box to play the CD's, and we had a recital. I thought the teacher was going to kiss me when I told her we could go on battery and source tape for the performance (we normally live switch but no power, no monitors, switchers, mixers, etc. - no switching!) So I do have one to edit before I can master it, but one short one (45 minutes) isn't a big deal.

I will say I pretty much gave up on using multi-clip because it did seem like more trouble than it was worth, but if you get it working it seems like a really good fit for your situation.

Good luck!
Miriam Moran
Omaha Wedding Video
www.OmahaWeddingVideo.com

Ron Priest
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Jun 9, 2008, 1:48 PM

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Re: [videogal] multi-cam question [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

Audio is an issue with multi-cam. I have only used it a couple of times as it is kind of hard to set up. ... I will say I pretty much gave up on using multi-clip because it did seem like more trouble than it was worth, but if you get it working it seems like a really good fit for your situation.

Good luck!

At first it does seem like it's more trouble than it's worth. Hover because I was a die-hard Premiere Pro user for so long and the multi-clip feature heavily in all my productions, I made it a point to stick with it when I converted to FCP.

It's really not that hard once you get the hang of setting it up. I like you, don't multi-cut my audio, just my video tracks. I suppose if one had the necessary equipment to do live switching, depending on the production, live switching is a great time saver. However if you want precise cuts with the decisions not having to be made under the pressure of having only one chance to get it right, multicam editing really is the best of both worlds.

It's defiantly worth the time learning in my opinion.
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2ndMile
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Jun 9, 2008, 3:43 PM

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Re: [Ron Priest] multi-cam question [In reply to]	Can't Post

I am using the separate audio solution as well with the multi-clip video. Do you guys have any suggestion for when you are running 3 cams and on a long production and have to switch tapes at different times on all three cameras. I figured out a workflow to get it to work but it is so kludgy that I am embarrassed to even post it. It works though.

They should really make it so you can set up your sync on a timeline and hit a magic button that would turn that sequence into a multi-clip. I am sure there is a reason why this can't happen so easily.

Brian Morris
2ndMile Blog

brucecleveland
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Jun 9, 2008, 4:13 PM

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Re: [Sparky] multi-cam question [In reply to]	Can't Post

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Miram I think you are making this way too complicated. This is the way I do it. Take the clips I want to be in my mulitclip. Find a common in point, like a flash going off. Set the in point on all the clips. Highlight each clip, right click and do a make multi-clip. Make sure in-points is set as method. This is the default setting I believe. Now just double click on the new multiclip to bring it up in the viewer window. Choose the clip you want to be the main clip, click on it and option drag it to the timeline. On the viewer pane make sure open is selected from the middle menu selection. Now when you scrub through the timeline, you should see all videos that are in your multiclip playing in the viewer in separate windows. I always make sure everything is synced up on each clip by scrubbing through the timeline and looking at each of the little windows. I do not do anything with audio until I am completely through my multiclip. Play from the beginning and then all you have to do is click on the video window in the viewer that you want to be active and it will put a blue marker in the timeline. When you stop playing, it will make cuts to desired markers on the timeline. There is also an important toolbar you will want to be active for multiclip editing. Go to tools on the menu, choose button bars and down to the right will be a set of buttons just above the timeline. These allow you to switch to different camera views and audio. This is where I set my audio clip once I am done going through and selecting my clips. Give it a try and let me know if you have any questions. Just don't make it any more difficult than it needs to be. It really is a simple process.

Bruce
"Always over my head, but not quite deep enough to drown."

Ron Priest
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Jun 9, 2008, 4:16 PM

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Re: [2ndMile] multi-cam question [In reply to]	Can't Post

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My entire wedding project is based upon two timelines. A ceremony timeline and a reception timeline. I actually refer to them as the "Ceremony footprint sequence" and "Reception footprint sequence".

Since I record all of my audio (both ceremony and reception) separately using the 4 channel Edirol R4, I initially lay down my complete audio track for the ceremony in one sequence and the audio form my reception in another sequence. I then lay down my video tracks and sync each clip to the audio for the entire night. These 2 sequences are my my baseline for the entire project.. Once I sync up all of the video from the different camera angels to their own video track, I'll insert slugs in the spaces where the camera stopped for whatever reason (to change tapes etc...). Now all of my video tracks start and end at the same place. I then export the video only from each track separately as a Quick Time Movie (not self contained) so I have a continues clip for each camera angle. I'll then import each clip and use those clips as my source for my multiclip edit. I'll create a new sequence for the multicam edit, drop my multiclip on the video 1 track, then go back to my ceremony footprint (the sequence with all the video and audio in sync with the slugs) I'll place an in and out marker at the point where my video starts and ends and copy the audio then past it to my multiclip sequence.

I know it seems like a lot of extra work, but it's not really once you get a workflow going. I've been told there is an easier way, but until someone wants to share it, I guess I'll keep doing what works.
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MLiebergot
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Jun 9, 2008, 4:27 PM

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Re: [Ron Priest] multi-cam question [In reply to]	Can't Post

Ron, so your editing technique if to create a full multiclip QT file for each camera during the ceremony and reception (complete with slugs for missing time), and create a QT file of each camera, then place that on your timeline and then create your multiclip from that?

Michael

Cameras: I do use them.
Audio: Yes, it does come with audio if you like.
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Ron Priest
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Jun 9, 2008, 4:33 PM

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Re: [MLiebergot] multi-cam question [In reply to]	Can't Post

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Yes, now why couldn't I of said that in those few words? Crazy

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MLiebergot
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Jun 9, 2008, 4:38 PM

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Re: [Ron Priest] multi-cam question [In reply to]	Can't Post

WHo knows, I'm supprises that I culd have written this explaination in such a concise manner. I'm usually the run on king. Crazy

BTW, I like the editing method that you described. The only thing that I am not a fan of is all of the extra hard drive space needed to pull this off (double your normal footgae). Works fine for SD or HDV footage, but maybe not the greatest if your working with an IFrame based codec like ProRes422 or DVCPROHD.

In Reply To

Yes, now why couldn't I of said that in those few words? Crazy

Michael

Cameras: I do use them.
Audio: Yes, it does come with audio if you like.
Software: I am learning...
Support: I need all that i can get.
Computer: MAC BABY!

Scott Brooks
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Jun 9, 2008, 4:47 PM

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Re: [brucecleveland] multi-cam question [In reply to]	Can't Post

Well then ... I'm off to see what new damage I can do. This change over with the FCP upgrade and new cameras is really wearing me down. "Almost" wish I stayed with the old. (I did say almost.) Wink

Ron Priest
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Jun 9, 2008, 4:48 PM

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Re: [MLiebergot] multi-cam question [In reply to]	Can't Post

Well you may be right, I have yet to see what happens in the case of editing HD. However, I do know since I'm not exporting them as a "Self Contained" Movie file, it's saving a lot of space, and it only takes like 20 seconds or less to export the video only QT movie. I guess since it's really just a reference file, it saves a lot of time and space. But again, not sure if I'll be able to do that with HD. I guess I'll see once I get there.

I'll see if I can post a couple PNG files here. Will VU use PNG files?

I guess so. Here is the Ceremony Footprint I was talking about before I insert the slugs into the video tracks.

Then once I have my QT movies created and imported back to the project, I make it a multiclip, and paste my audio from my Ceremony Footprint into the audio tracks. As was mentioned eariler, the audio is not switched when editing the multiclip.

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(This post was edited by Ron Priest on Jun 9, 2008, 4:54 PM)

brucecleveland
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Jun 9, 2008, 4:49 PM

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Re: [Sparky] multi-cam question [In reply to]	Can't Post

Wow you guys are really making way too much work out of this. Trust me on this.

Bruce
"Always over my head, but not quite deep enough to drown."

Ron Priest
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Jun 9, 2008, 4:57 PM

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Re: [brucecleveland] multi-cam question [In reply to]	Can't Post

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Wow you guys are really making way too much work out of this. Trust me on this.

Bruce

Well what do you do Bruce when you have 4 places where your camera person either stooped recording or you had to change tapes? Do you make up multiple multi-clips then have to piece them together?

Your method works fine if each video clip is one continuous clip.
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Scott Brooks
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Jun 9, 2008, 5:04 PM

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Re: [Ron Priest] multi-cam question [In reply to]	Can't Post

Well what do you do Bruce when you have 4 places where your camera person either stooped recording or you had to change tapes? Do you make up multiple multi-clips then have to piece them together?

Your method works fine if each video clip is one continuous clip.

This is what I'm going to have to find out because my clips don't match up perfectly for the dance recital either. I have several files from my CF card from the Z7 and several clips from the nNovia.

brucecleveland
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Jun 9, 2008, 5:05 PM

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Re: [Ron Priest] multi-cam question [In reply to]	Can't Post

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Wow you guys are really making way too much work out of this. Trust me on this.

Bruce

Oh that is a different story. I usually leave all cameras recording until I have to change tapes and then in edit I would have to make 2 different multiclips. I would be pulling my hair out if one of my shooters stopped the camera several times.

Bruce
"Always over my head, but not quite deep enough to drown."

Ron Priest
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Jun 9, 2008, 5:17 PM

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Re: [brucecleveland] multi-cam question [In reply to]	Can't Post

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Yeah, well I have lost a lot of hair for that very reason. My other shooter is getting better and keeping the camera running. As you can see in my example above. If it wasn't for that video 1 track there having one place that is missing footage, I could of simply created a standard multiclip.

HOWEVER, the reception is a totally different monster. I may have 4 hours of audio recorded from the reception onto the R4. In this case I have no choice but to create several multiclips from the "Ceremony Footprint Master" In this case I'll export segments of the timeline for several different multiclips after I get it all in sync and have added my slugs.. I'll have to save this message and post the picture below using my PC, haven't figured out how to do it on my Mac yet. So if you don't see a picture of a reception below, refresh your browser when you visit next time.

Notice I don't add slugs to my audio tracks. That way when I'm editing my multiclip, I can tell when the screen goes black for any camera angle, it went black because it's over a slug, and referring to my audio track I'll notice a piece of audio is missing, thereby representing it's associated video track contained in the above multi-clip.

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(This post was edited by Ron Priest on Jun 9, 2008, 5:23 PM)

Ron Priest
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Jun 9, 2008, 5:34 PM

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Re: [Ron Priest] multi-cam question [In reply to]	Can't Post

Okay, I might mention that the above Reception Footprint timeline represents 5 hours of music. Each of the green markers represent when a new song started playing. Yeah, I have to find the beginning of each song on the timeline before I can start syncing up my video to the timeline.

Again, this may look like a lot of extra work, and well... it is. But the audio quality is extreme! Audio tracks 1 & 2 are the left and right stereo output from the DJs sound board, while audio tracks 3 and 4 my mics on stands to pick up ambient sound. This way as the first dance starts, I can fade out the crowd noise and you only hear the beautiful song that the couple is dancing to. It's almost like the video takes you into their own little world as if they hear no one else but themselves and the music.

The other additional audio tracks are from the camcorders and are mostly only used for syncing.
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brucecleveland
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Jun 9, 2008, 10:17 PM

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Wow Ron I have to study this picture and respond. Makes me think I am not doing enough on the audio end.

Bruce
"Always over my head, but not quite deep enough to drown."

Ron Priest
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Jun 10, 2008, 10:57 AM

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Re: [brucecleveland] multi-cam question [In reply to]	Can't Post

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There is also an important toolbar you will want to be active for multiclip editing. Go to tools on the menu, choose button bars and down to the right will be a set of buttons just above the timeline. These allow you to switch to different camera views and audio. This is where I set my audio clip once I am done going through and selecting my clips. Give it a try and let me know if you have any questions. ...
Bruce

Morning Bruce

You know, I was well aware of the multi-cam button bar, but when I first discovered it I didn't fully appreciate them. Now that I take a closer look at the buttons, they are quite handy. Thanks for mentioning them.
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brucecleveland
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Jun 10, 2008, 2:13 PM

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Glad I could jog your memory Ron.

Hey when you plug your R4 into the dj board, how are you monitoring the levels? Sounds like something I should be doing and then you have all of the audio. I have been just plugging my wireless into the board, which works pretty good. Lot less synching.

Bruce
"Always over my head, but not quite deep enough to drown."

Ron Priest
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Jun 10, 2008, 2:49 PM

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...Hey when you plug your R4 into the dj board, how are you monitoring the levels? Sounds like something I should be doing and then you have all of the audio. I have been just plugging my wireless into the board, which works pretty good. Lot less synching.

Bruce

At the ceremony I run the front cam and I have the R4 close enough to my tripod that I can monitor the audio with headphones. While at the reception, I don't monitor my audio. The R4 has a limit switch and it works pretty good, much better than a standard automatic gain control. I will have some headphones connected to the R4 and once I initially have my volumes set I'll put the lock switch on so no one can mess with any of the settings and go off about my business and shoot the reception. It's great not having to worry about monitoring audio and not having to worry about what I may say being recorded. I will go back to the R4 and check it every once in a while. I use to monitor it with a wireless set of headphones, but I gave that up a few weddings back.
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brucecleveland
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Jun 10, 2008, 3:46 PM

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So what are you plugging into the R4 for mics then?
"Always over my head, but not quite deep enough to drown."

MLiebergot
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Jun 10, 2008, 3:57 PM

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Quote

So what are you plugging into the R4 for mics then?

Oh, oh, pick me, pick me...Mr. Kotter, pick me...ooh...ooh ooh...

Bet he's running wireless into the R4 along with a wired mic from time to time.

Michael

Cameras: I do use them.
Audio: Yes, it does come with audio if you like.
Software: I am learning...
Support: I need all that i can get.
Computer: MAC BABY!

brucecleveland
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Jun 10, 2008, 4:07 PM

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Re: [MLiebergot] multi-cam question [In reply to]	Can't Post

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Quote

So what are you plugging into the R4 for mics then?

Oh, oh, pick me, pick me...Mr. Kotter, pick me...ooh...ooh ooh...

Bet he's running wireless into the R4 along with a wired mic from time to time.

I know Michael you are just chomping at the bit to get in on this one. The audio Ghuru
"Always over my head, but not quite deep enough to drown."

Ron Priest
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Jun 10, 2008, 4:34 PM

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Re: [brucecleveland] multi-cam question [In reply to]	Can't Post

Well... at the ceremony, I have a wireless on the groom and the minister, and if the podium is all the way on the other side of where I'm camped out at I'll put a wireless on the podium. But, If I'm on the same side as the podium, then I'll run a wired mic to the R4 (don't want to run a wired mic all the way across the room). In most cases, If I can plug up to the churches sound board, I'll run a wireless transmitter from their soundboard to the R4 instead of putting a mic on the podium because I need that 3rd wireless receiver for their soundboard. In the last case, I'll then run a wired mic to my 4th channel on the R4 for ambient sound.

At the reception, I have a stereo feed from the DJ's soundboard (i.e. RCA Record output - Red & White FM jacks) going to the R4, and I'll have 2 of my own mics on stands to the other 2 inputs of the R4 for ambient audio.

(seems like I've told this story before... Wink

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