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Home: Video University Forums: Marketing & Business:
Bold Customers - boasting about copying YOUR video

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fleegor
Novice

May 6, 2005, 1:37 PM

Post #26 of 38 (2208 views)
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Re: [Bob A] Bold Customers - boasting about copying YOUR video [In reply to]	Can't Post

I have never bought a video or dvd that gets straight into the feature without having some sort of advertising or other. Disney is a good example (thank you) not only do they advertise other features but also trips to disneyland.
Also many commercially made training videos I have seen have adverts selling products relevant to the subject matter. (Not sure what training you would need to be doing to get the tampax contract though)
But anyway I would like to think that just because no one has done it before is certainly not a reason for me not to consider it. What an awful world it would be if we all followed those ground rules.
In a cinema you cant press fast forward.
But if we can come back to the point in question....what is the solution to these people copying your hard work and denying you an income?? The pirates are here to stay and it is getting easier and easier for them to 'win' daily.

videobear
Veteran

May 6, 2005, 3:10 PM

Post #27 of 38 (2200 views)
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Re: [fleegor] Bold Customers - boasting about copying YOUR video [In reply to]	Can't Post

I wrote a column on this topic recently, "Pirates off the Port Bow" for EventDV magazine. It explored several options for protecting your work.

Regards,
Doug Graham
Panda Productions

Bob A
Veteran

May 6, 2005, 3:33 PM

Post #28 of 38 (2195 views)
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Re: [videobear] Bold Customers - boasting about copying YOUR video [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

Most likely "ad", though, wouldn't be for a third party, but a plug for your own video business.
Do you think that would be viewed any differently?

Now that is something different and only limited by how tacky you want to be. I put a "This video was produced by:" page for about 6 seconds at the end of the video, usually at the end on the event and just before the 'out takes' portion of the tape. The 'out takes' portion is kinda my trademark, sometimes the 'out takes' portion will be 15 minutes or so long of candids, close ups, group shots, etc. Some of the events will have open dancing for the kids at intermission or at the conclusion of the competition and I go down on the floor and circulate in the crowd getting as many different people for like 5-10 second clips or stills as I can. At dance recitals it would be a bit of each number from the dress rehearsal, often shot from on stage � up close and personal, maybe only including one dancer. Some shots of a beaming parent in the audience watching their kiddo clomping across the stage or the instructor barking direction. The recital directors all give me full, unlimited access to roam on stage, even mingle between the dancers during the practice routines because of how much fun the out takes are. The only thing I was restricted from doing was having a live monitor on because the instructors could not get the kids attention away from it.
Some events that are a couple days long, I will roam the halls of the hotel catching the participants or their chaperones or parents doing whatever might invoke a smile on tape. That has kept me coming back to jobs for years. I got canned from one event that grosses over 10 grand cuz I told the promoter he was a jerk and a crook. (strange as it might be for me to say exactly what�s on my mind!!) But after 2 years he came back asking me to return because so many people were disappointed that my classic �out takes� were missing. (He�s the jerk that charges me $2500 the do the event)
My take is: better video is the key to financial success not trying to get a few bucks from ads and pissing off the people that are you real customers. One of those �rules of life� that is circulating on the 'net is: �always give people more than they expect.� (in a good way, of course)
YMMV as usual....

fleegor
Novice

May 6, 2005, 4:14 PM

Post #29 of 38 (2191 views)
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Re: [Bob A] Bold Customers - boasting about copying YOUR video [In reply to]	Can't Post

It seems that this discussion may drag quite a bit so I will bow out now but would just like to clarify what I understand your advice the the original poster to be.
"make your videos better or more appealing so that the people that would normaly try to buy cheaper/unofficial copies will rather pay for the higher priced originals (even though they get the same content anyway)"

Gadget Man
User

May 20, 2005, 8:44 PM

Post #30 of 38 (2027 views)
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Re: [fleegor] Bold Customers - boasting about copying YOUR video [In reply to]	Can't Post

Quote

"make your videos better or more appealing so that the people that would normaly try to buy cheaper/unofficial copies will rather pay for the higher priced originals (even though they get the same content anyway)"

This may have been possible years ago with VHS tapes, but the is issue today is how easy it is to duplicate DVDs with little or no experience and with NO quality loss.

That is the real issue.
Ed Wardyga
Keepsake Video/KVI Media
Pawtucket, RI
wardyga@kvimedia.com

videobear
Veteran

May 20, 2005, 10:20 PM

Post #31 of 38 (2024 views)
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Re: [Gadget Man] Bold Customers - boasting about copying YOUR video [In reply to]	Can't Post

It's still possible to add value, Ed. For example, the DVD case and disc label themselves. Or, you might include some additional material (stills, maybe, or personalized notes) in a brochure with the DVD.

Regards,
Doug Graham
Panda Productions

John K.
Veteran / Moderator

May 20, 2005, 11:49 PM

Post #32 of 38 (2021 views)
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Re: [fleegor] Bold Customers - boasting about copying YOUR video [In reply to]	Can't Post

For weddings, simple solution:

You build-in the "lost" amount for a few extra copies into your package pricing. I have no problem whatsoever at this point if clients want to copy my stuff or not. Honestly, I hope they do make copies. It's cheap marketing in my eyes and more people will see my video other than the bride and groom. So, let them copy away and in the end I benefit. Instead of worrying about a few extra dollars for a couple of extra copies, I look at the increased chance of me getting another referral booking because of it - again, a cheap advertising and marketing expense which is well worth it. Finally, for weddings, quite frankly, I don't want to be bothered a few weeks after a client leaves my studio to mess around making a few more copies (I really don't like having to do the box art, labels, etc.), it's just not worth my time and I have better things (and certainly more editing) I could be doing.

John

Bob A
Veteran

May 21, 2005, 9:46 AM

Post #33 of 38 (2001 views)
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Re: [John K.] Bold Customers - boasting about copying YOUR video [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

John this problem is for the event videographer that makes his money base soley on the volume of sales. It is very discuraging hearing from another Video guy saying you "hope they do make copies." This is a violation of copyright law and a blatent theft from the producer. This theft is no different from stealing from Sears or BestBuy please do not encourage it or claim it is a good thing, it most certanly is not. I probably lose more money per year to that kind of theft than you make.

John K.
Veteran / Moderator

May 21, 2005, 9:58 AM

Post #34 of 38 (1996 views)
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Re: [Bob A] Bold Customers - boasting about copying YOUR video [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hey Bob,

I gotta get my but out the door soon here, but to clarify:

For recitals, plays, etc., where you are dealing with multiple clients vs. a single wedding couple, I agree with you. When I did recitals a few years back, I charged a flat base (I believe it was around $1000), plus had a min. amount of VHS and DVD copies that had to be ordered. It worked well and the orders were over the min. amount anyway.

As far as for weddings, I'm comfortable with how I see things and am perfectly fine with a couple copying my stuff. I've already charged them for it, although they don't know it (because it's already figured into my package pricing); and on top of it, I'm getting greater exposure as well. A win win in my book with regards to weddings. If you really don't like my view on this topic in those terms, think of it as a cheap marketing expense. I'd much rather receive a $2000 wedding booking from a couple who wants my services after seeing my full production off of a copy made by the bride and groom vs. worrying about an additional $35 DVD order � big deal, I don�t want to be bothered with that kind of stuff after the fact anyway.

Can you see where I�m coming from; from a business and referral standpoint (when you really look at what I can gain)?

Take care,

John

Bob A
Veteran

May 21, 2005, 2:28 PM

Post #35 of 38 (1984 views)
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Re: [John K.] Bold Customers - boasting about copying YOUR video [In reply to]	Can't Post

John,
Yes I do understand your position, but I would rather see you make 10 or 20 extra DVDs along with your package than encourage them to flaunt copyright laws and make copies on their own. To say nothing of the person copying might copy yours to VHS-SLP then back to DVD (cuz they don't know any other way). That is an additional black eye for you. In your case the copies made by you will be first class and only cost about a buck apiece.

kirklandvideo
User

May 22, 2005, 6:50 PM

Post #36 of 38 (1931 views)
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Re: [Bob A] Bold Customers - boasting about copying YOUR video [In reply to]	Can't Post

I actually think there's two different copyright rules applying here.

Here in Australia (and copyright laws tend to be similar everywhere) if you are employed to produce a video copyright belongs to the person who employs you unless your contract states something different. In the case of a wedding, this would mean that the couple own the copyright to the video, so technically they're free to do whatever they want with it after the fact.

If however, you film a recital for no fee and then sell the tapes, you are not being employed by anyone and the copyright is yours.

At least that's my understanding of the situation...

Jeff Kirkland
video producer - podcaster - new media artist
--
Sony PD-170, Sony FX1, Vegas 7, Edius 3.6, Premiere Pro 2, Boris RED 4, Final Cut Pro 5.1
Web site: Southern Creative Media

videobear
Veteran

May 23, 2005, 10:36 AM

Post #37 of 38 (1892 views)
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Re: [kirklandvideo] Bold Customers - boasting about copying YOUR video [In reply to]	Can't Post

Jeff,

It's a very complex issue. Here in the USA, if you are an employee, your employer owns the rights to your work, just as you say. But most event videographers qualify as "independent contractors" in the eyes of the law...and independent contractors own the rights to their work, unless it's otherwise stated in their contract.

On the other hand, the people in the video own the rights to their likeness, and therefore the videographer should obtain talent releases from them in order to clear his rights...but can you imagine giving a bride a sheaf of talent releases and asking her to hand them out to her friends and relatives?

For recitals, other aspects come into play. The songs the dancers perform to are themselves copyrighted. While the recital organizer has probably obtained performance rights, she has likely NOT obtained synchronization rights, so you are in copyright violation when you record those dance numbers. Moreover, many dance recitals take place in halls that have a union contract with the support personnel...stage hands, sound board operators, lighting crew, etc...and the union may very well have issues regarding recording performances.

I always have a clause in my contracts that deals with who owns the rights, just to make things perfectly clear. This clause will vary, depending on the project, but for weddings, it states that I hold the rights. As for unauthorized copying, I agree with BobA that for small-volume projects like weddings, it makes sense to make as many discs as the client wants, right up front. For volume-based sales, a number of approaches exist to help protect your income, but certainly the ready availability of DVD copiers has made it more difficult to keep the pirates at bay.

Regards,
Doug Graham
Panda Productions

kirklandvideo
User

May 23, 2005, 10:14 PM

Post #38 of 38 (1860 views)
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Re: [videobear] Bold Customers - boasting about copying YOUR video [In reply to]	Can't Post

Thanks Doug,

I had forgotten about being 'independent contractors'... That would apply here in Australia as well. As you suggest though, I always have a clause in my contract stating clearly who owns the finished work.

Jeff Kirkland
video producer - podcaster - new media artist
--
Sony PD-170, Sony FX1, Vegas 7, Edius 3.6, Premiere Pro 2, Boris RED 4, Final Cut Pro 5.1
Web site: Southern Creative Media

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