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Home: Video University Forums: Marketing & Business:
Bold Customers - boasting about copying YOUR video

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Gadget Man
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Oct 10, 2004, 7:06 PM

Post #1 of 38 (5950 views)
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Bold Customers - boasting about copying YOUR video	Can't Post

Just video taped a cheerleading competition yesterday and the people manning my sales table heard, on 3 different occasions, people telling other people "not to buy the video, I'm going to copy a bunch of them". All within ear-shot of the sales table! It's almost like telling us that they are going to copy our video and we can't do a thing about it!

Got a few ideas on how to curtail this negative activity (sales were down again this year). One is to inform the hosting organization of the competition (who has control over all of the teams participating) as some of the people are possibly coaches. Second is the idea of placing stills of the DVD and VHS labels within the video with the warning: "If the DVD or tape does not have a label that looks like these, you are watching an illegal copy of the video. Not only is duplicating a copyrighted video illegal and against federal law, you are hurting YOUR organization as each video purchased directly benefits the host organization through a cash donation. Continued duplication activity will result in the loss of a professional company taping YOUR competition and funds to help continue the work of your organization. If you wish to purchase a legal copy, please contact KVI Media. Cash rewards are being offered for names that can be verified as to people creating the copies."

Any comments or other suggestions?

This situation has been posted before (here and on other forums) and continues to be a major problem as the technology continues to get cheaper and more people acquire the ability to duplicate your work on DVD.
Short of digital encoding (costing thousands), there is little that can be done, other than try to play to the good in people to do the right thing.
Ed Wardyga
Keepsake Video/KVI Media
Pawtucket, RI
wardyga@kvimedia.com

videobear
Veteran

Oct 11, 2004, 2:16 PM

Post #2 of 38 (5916 views)
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Re: [Gadget Man] Bold Customers - boasting about copying YOUR video [In reply to]	Can't Post

Here's one I just thought of, Ed. It'd hurt you in the short run, but it might lead to better policing of the organization's members by the organization in the future.

1. Have a clause in your contract stating that you are the sole videographer for the event, and that copying of the video will not be tolerated.
2. When your staff overhears remarks like you report, immediately stop shooting. Pack up and leave, and explain to the organization why they will not be receiving a video this year. Try and get the name of the offender(s), so the organization will know exactly who to blame.
3. As you suggest, offer a reward for the identification of pirates. If you get a lead, or even find out that copies were made, contact the organization and explain why you won't be available to shoot for them NEXT year.

Be professional, not defensive or vindictive. Calmly point out that you make your living with these sales, and each pirate copy hurts both you and the organization, and explain that you can't work under those conditions.

I dunno. Maybe it's not a great idea, but I thought I'd throw it out for discussion.

Regards,
Doug Graham
Panda Productions

ADP Wavefront
Enthusiast

Oct 11, 2004, 4:46 PM

Post #3 of 38 (5910 views)
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Re: [videobear] Bold Customers - boasting about copying YOUR video [In reply to]	Can't Post

I think you said it best Doug.

V.U. California Crew, L.A. Chapter

Gadget Man
User

Oct 11, 2004, 7:04 PM

Post #4 of 38 (5900 views)
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Re: [videobear] Bold Customers - boasting about copying YOUR video [In reply to]	Can't Post

Doug,

Normally that WOULD be the way to go BUT there is no way of knowing that the people talking about "doing the deed" are just parents of competitors (cheerleading competition). Chances are that these pirates are just parents with a little knowledge and a new computer making copies for friends. But the deal is that they told people just about to buy legal copies (friends) "don't buy one, I'll make you a copy" within a few feet of the sales table!

The organization has been notified and some of the individual groups' offivials (the ones that the "pirates" belonged to) where told also and replied that they will be passing the word down the chain of command. I also suggested that if I have positive proof, I'll ban anyone from those groups from purchasing a video next year.

Someone has to come up with a digital encoding that the average Joe can add to their DVD to prevent illegal duplicating. It will get worse as the equipment becomes less costly and easier to use.

I had someone call to suggest that we lower our prices to make it less profitable to copy, but at that level, we would not be making a profit.

Ed Wardyga
Keepsake Video/KVI Media
Pawtucket, RI
wardyga@kvimedia.com

mjeppsen
Veteran

Oct 11, 2004, 11:24 PM

Post #5 of 38 (5897 views)
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Re: [Gadget Man] Bold Customers - boasting about copying YOUR video [In reply to]	Can't Post

"Short of digital encoding (costing thousands), there is little that can be done, other than try to play to the good in people to do the right thing."

...and after spending thousands of dollars, you will still have an easily cracked CSS encryption. Not long ago it was considered "133T" to copy/crack DVD's. Now the tools to do this are easily found, and easier used. Average Joe can copy and burn any DVD they want with little or no effort.

"Someone has to come up with a digital encoding that the average Joe can add to their DVD to prevent illegal duplicating. It will get worse as the equipment becomes less costly and easier to use."

IMHO, new technology/copy protection/DRM will ALWAYS be broken. The next Super-Duper-Shiny-Uncrackable-CSS will be broken just as quickly as the current incarnation of CSS was, and the tools to do this will soon trickle down to the unwashed masses. Technology isn't a magic bullet.

I personally think that the answer is to add value to the product that must be purchased. For example, a Hollywood DVD could offer a schweet looking DVD case, and insert with "special info", etc. Consider audio CD's...there's something nice about owning an album from a band you really like...you've got this awesome insert with lyrics, pictures of the band, etc. For a long time, DVD-R media only held 4.37GB...that means that the vast majority of ripped DVD's have the extras stripped off, and play only the movie (and long-running films are often re-encoded at low bitrates for space. Eww.). I'm a sucker for Director's Commentary, so guess what? I have to buy DVD's. There is an added value there that I am willing to pay a fair price to get my hands on. And I don't think I'm the only consumer that feels that way...

Adding value ALONE certainly is not enough to stop the flow of piracy, but IMHO it makes a difference. More of a difference than putting your faith in the latest and greatest DRM that will be rendered useless by a 17yr old across the world, still buzzing from his last Jolt Cola as he finishes a late-night coding session. That's not to say that there isn't a place for CSS/DRM/whatever...that will stop some of the casual thieves, at first anyway. But it's not a magic bullet HAHA! 'CAUSE IF IT WAS IT WOULD LET YOU DO MOVIE LOOKS WITH THE CLICK OF A BUTTON! OMFG, LOL*#)(*$&%(*%$)(*(&^%%^...OK, OK, I'm back now, lost it there for a minute but it's all under control now. Sorry you all had to see that. Friends don't let friends make stupid puns, right?

Matt Jeppsen
clearcreekproductions.com

Matt Jeppsen
www.FreshDV.com

Sunny
User

Oct 15, 2004, 5:08 PM

Post #6 of 38 (5839 views)
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Re: [Gadget Man] Bold Customers - boasting about copying YOUR video [In reply to]	Can't Post

There's not much you can do about someone buying a video from you and copying it for others. I'm sure that goes on all the time. But for them to stand nearby and boldly announce that's what they plan on doing is like a slap in the face. Too bad it's not legal to blow these scumbags to kingdom come.
Since you can't do that....one thing you can do is make up a huge banner stating that a certain amount of money from each DVD sale goes to support their team. Also, if you added something that only the people who bought a legitimate copy would be get, like maybe a coupon for so much off their next wedding video, or enter their name into a drawing to receive a free photo montage or whatever. I think that might put those pirates out of business.
Smile

Sunny

mjeppsen
Veteran

Oct 15, 2004, 5:25 PM

Post #7 of 38 (5835 views)
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Re: [Sunny] Bold Customers - boasting about copying YOUR video [In reply to]	Can't Post

<raises bullhorn> "This is The Optometrist; put down the font and slowly step away from the thread..."

MY EYES! :-) I do like Sunny's idea of adding value...the coupon and drawing ideas are a good suggestion IMHO. Might have to individually # or identify the coupons though...I've heard of a newfangled device called a "copier".

-MJ

Matt Jeppsen
www.FreshDV.com

(This post was edited by mjeppsen on Oct 15, 2004, 5:28 PM)

Postal_Boy
Veteran

Oct 16, 2004, 5:32 AM

Post #8 of 38 (5814 views)
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Re: [mjeppsen] Bold Customers - boasting about copying YOUR video [In reply to]	Can't Post

Who knows...the government negotiated with numerous manufactureres to pre-program into scanners a program that won't allow the scanner make a copy of the new currency that is just being released. And nobody knew until now. They just get a pop-up that tells people that they can't make a photocopy or scanned image of the bill.

Next thing you know we will all have computers that will simply look for a specific data stream that says "don't copy this" and we won't be able to do anything about it because it will be hard-coded into the hardware, not in a software application that can be easily cracked.

But until that day, some of the suggestions above may be your only countermeasure.
__________________________

PD-170, Dual athlon 2200+, 1gig ram,, Vegas, Combustion, Photoshop, dual monitor (ashamed of the video card, so I won't mention it), Samson wireless, and a couple of one-chippers (sony) just for the heck of it. - And an IRIVER

WinelightDigitl
User

Oct 23, 2004, 3:44 PM

Post #9 of 38 (5694 views)
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Re: [mjeppsen] Bold Customers - boasting about copying YOUR video [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

Yeah, you would definately have to number the coupons and also, try to get some really offbeat paper to print them on. Like a discontinued design.
--------------------------------------------
Orange Cat Productions
Paso Robles, CA
--------------------------------------------

Gadget Man
User

Oct 25, 2004, 3:23 PM

Post #10 of 38 (5661 views)
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Re: [WinelightDigitl] Bold Customers - boasting about copying YOUR video [In reply to]	Can't Post

We've offered coupons before (with limited success) and found to prevent copying, print the original on a dark colored paper (like a bright red). If you try to copy it, it comes out black or pretty close to it. Useless. Pastel colors are easy to duplicate because of the contrast.

Ed Wardyga
Keepsake Video/KVI Media
Pawtucket, RI
wardyga@kvimedia.com

TimK
User

Oct 28, 2004, 1:55 PM

Post #11 of 38 (5623 views)
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Re: [Gadget Man] Bold Customers - boasting about copying YOUR video [In reply to]	Can't Post

This wont work with all events, but try charging a flat rate that includes a certain number of copies with a price for more copies, and the organization is responsible for taking orders and charging what they want.

KevinShaw
Veteran

Feb 10, 2005, 10:58 AM

Post #12 of 38 (4993 views)
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Re: [Gadget Man] Bold Customers - boasting about copying YOUR video [In reply to]	Can't Post

The best solutions I can think of are as follows:

(1) Charge enough for your basic services up front that it doesn't particularly matter whether you make money selling copies. For anything involving kids you might as well figure they're going to copy it, since many of them know how to do so and don't seem to have any qualms about it.

(2) Make your discs as professional-looking as possible, using printable DVDs and customized covers. People duplicating the discs can try to copy this too, but aren't as likely to do so, so the pirated discs won't look very pretty.

(3) Lower prices on copies enough so at least the adults won't balk at paying for them.

(4) Think of pirated DVDs as advertising for you for future events. Just make sure your company name and contact info is prominent in the content.

It's debatable whether pirating hurts sales or helps them in the long run, and this debate has been going on since music cassettes and VCRs were invented. The music, TV and movie industries haven't collapsed yet, even though all of their work can theoretically be duplicated for next to nothing.

Beverly
User

Feb 11, 2005, 1:15 AM

Post #13 of 38 (4944 views)
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Re: [kwshaw1] Bold Customers - boasting about copying YOUR video [In reply to]	Can't Post

I have told people in the past that the Videos are copy protected and the video would not show up clear in a copy. Yes, I know this is a lie, however most people start thinking and buy the videos from me just in case. I don't feel bad about the lie since they were willing to steal from me to start off with.

sfzmedia
Novice

Mar 9, 2005, 12:00 PM

Post #14 of 38 (4659 views)
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Re: [Beverly] Bold Customers - boasting about copying YOUR video [In reply to]	Can't Post

We do the same thing - We put a sicker on the VHS tape that says "any attempt to copy this tape will ruin this tape".

People believe it. Also, when people say that in front of me I do one of two things, confront them and say that is not right, or refuse to sell to the person. I don't "NEED" their money.

Good Luck,
Robin

fleegor
Novice

May 4, 2005, 4:12 AM

Post #15 of 38 (4294 views)
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Re: [sfzmedia] Bold Customers - boasting about copying YOUR video [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hello, I am new to this board and the whole video industry so my suggestion my be 'shot down in flames' but....
Would it not be an idea to have some advertising on your video? This would do one of two things.
1. It would help you recover your production costs and possibly give you a nice profit.
2. It could open up a whole new market in making small ads for such companies.
Dont forget by making these videos you are getting into the livingrooms of quite a captive audience so if you target your 'advertising clients' quite carefully it may be quite profitable for them and you.
Who knows...then the pirates may be doing you a favour by increasing your exposure.

Bob A
Veteran

May 4, 2005, 10:33 AM

Post #16 of 38 (4284 views)
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Re: [fleegor] Bold Customers - boasting about copying YOUR video [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

Boy, that would be the classic definition of SPAM!!

fleegor
Novice

May 5, 2005, 12:53 AM

Post #17 of 38 (4241 views)
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Re: [Bob A] Bold Customers - boasting about copying YOUR video [In reply to]	Can't Post

surely by that definition everytime you turn on your TV or read a magazine (or buy a video for that matter) you get totally blasted by "spam". Spam by definition is unsolicited advertising usually in the form of mail. If you use your definition it is just advertising. I do not want to get into a debate about whether advertising is good or bad.
What I am saying is you will never beat the pirates so find a way around them. (by using the same method television does)
Obviously it must be done tastefully, (but then we are after all artists right). I certainly think this would be much less damaging to your business than just packing up and leaving in the middle of a job.

Bob A
Veteran

May 5, 2005, 10:12 AM

Post #18 of 38 (4197 views)
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Re: [fleegor] Bold Customers - boasting about copying YOUR video [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

My event video productions are made for the paying customer not the potential pirate. I am sure any advertising in them would cheapen the perceived value of the video and irritate people that I would �use� their attention to force unwanted and unexpected advertising crap on them. Just my take��

fleegor
Novice

May 5, 2005, 10:52 AM

Post #19 of 38 (4190 views)
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Re: [Bob A] Bold Customers - boasting about copying YOUR video [In reply to]	Can't Post

I think we may be talking about two different things here.
If your client paid you a certain amount to cover an event and produce a video for them then I agree you have no right to put on any advertising. But in this situation you are being paid for producing the video whatever happens after that is not your concern.
But if you were asked to video an event, produce a DVD and then sell it to make your profit (as I believe is the senario in the original post) then I think you have a right to treat it as any comercial DVD. My point is that in this case advertising may be a necessary 'evil' in order for the video to be available every year.
Maybe I misunderstood the original post??

Bob A
Veteran

May 5, 2005, 12:10 PM

Post #20 of 38 (4183 views)
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Re: [fleegor] Bold Customers - boasting about copying YOUR video [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

No missunderstanding, I do event video on spec. Rarely paid for shooting only. On many, I pay the promoter for the privilege from $600 to $2500 per event. On others I will give a couple hundred for a couple of "Good Luck" full pages in their program book or even give to their scholarship fund. I produce, sell and ship the videos. I probably do more that anyone else here, over 20,000 videos sold so far. I personally would never consider putting an ad on those videos. I include a �Tape Tips� sheet in each video with some info on proper handling of DVDs and tapes (and a warning that your genitals will fall of if you attempt to copy this video). In a couple rare cases, maybe include a sale of previous years videos for that event if I have too many left over, but never consider any commercial advertising.
As usual � YMMV!

(This post was edited by Bob A on May 5, 2005, 6:01 PM)

videobear
Veteran

May 5, 2005, 2:19 PM

Post #21 of 38 (4178 views)
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Re: [Bob A] Bold Customers - boasting about copying YOUR video [In reply to]	Can't Post

Even if you're getting paid for the copies themselves (instead of, or in addition to, a payment for production), I think it's fair to insert advertising in your videos.

Hey, if it's good enough for Disney...

Regards,
Doug Graham
Panda Productions

Bob A
Veteran

May 5, 2005, 6:04 PM

Post #22 of 38 (4164 views)
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Re: [videobear] Bold Customers - boasting about copying YOUR video [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

I'm sure they would just love to see a Tampx or Preparation H ad in the middle of the video!
That would get me a ton of repeat orders!! Sly

videobear
Veteran

May 6, 2005, 10:51 AM

Post #23 of 38 (4103 views)
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Re: [Bob A] Bold Customers - boasting about copying YOUR video [In reply to]	Can't Post

Not in the middle, Bob. I'd do it like Disney does...put all the ads up front. They can be bypassed by hitting the DVD menu button.

Regards,
Doug Graham
Panda Productions

Bob A
Veteran

May 6, 2005, 11:44 AM

Post #24 of 38 (4102 views)
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Re: [videobear] Bold Customers - boasting about copying YOUR video [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

Not in the middle, Bob. I'd do it like Disney does...put all the ads up front. They can be bypassed by hitting the DVD menu button.

I know, I know! Just an attempt at a bit of dry humor.
I have been pretty successful at event video for over 15 years and in keeping with my philosophy�s as to what I believe the customer wants and more importantly - deserves. I would never, never clog up any part of a video with an ad for the local pizza joint or up to and including Sears. Ads are an irritation for me in anything I have paid to see and I can�t imagine ANYONE calling to say �thanks� for putting a commercial ad in my kid�s performance video. If you have paid attention to the news lately, many theaters are now posting the start times for the ads along with the actual start time of the feature because so many people are complaining about the very thing you are agreeing is a good idea!!?? Even the last round of VCRs included a �Commercial Skip� function. What part of this am I missing?
This is a terrible idea and if someone thinks it is necessary to turn a profit for themselves, then they should be looking elsewhere for an income stream. This will piss everyone off that views the video and please no one. If you know a single succesful event videographer in the world doing this I would be very curious to hear about them.
Each to his own and YMMV etc., etc.

(This post was edited by Bob A on May 6, 2005, 11:55 AM)

videobear
Veteran

May 6, 2005, 12:59 PM

Post #25 of 38 (4095 views)
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Re: [Bob A] Bold Customers - boasting about copying YOUR video [In reply to]	Can't Post

Nope, I have to admit I don't know of anyone doing this. I just think that it could be a viable extra income source.

Most likely "ad", though, wouldn't be for a third party, but a plug for your own video business.
Do you think that would be viewed any differently?

Regards,
Doug Graham
Panda Productions

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