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Home: Video University Forums: Marketing & Business:
Commercial quote...

 

 


sky writer
Enthusiast


Aug 2, 2005, 1:45 PM

Post #1 of 11 (1369 views)
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Commercial quote... Can't Post

I have been approached by a local CANADIAN business to produce a 30 second commercial (to be aired on our local news station. The end result will be a time lapse of a large scale landscaping job being completed, followed by contact information. No Voice over, just music bed.

The commercial will not be FULLY edited until next fall (or maybe the year after) when the grounds (flowers/greenery) have matured and more video will be taken and added to the end of the time lapse to show the final product.

Here are the details:
- 25 days of shooting (8 hour days)
- Owner wants video of entire 8 hours from each day. He then wants that video sped up so that the whole process fits in a 20 second spot (10 seconds for contact graphic).

Here is what I have come up with, but the end figure seems steep, but maybe that's because I am used to dealing with wedding/event work, not commercial/industrial clients.

Video Aquisition - 25 days x 8 hrs = 200hrs @ $50.00/hr = $10,000.00
Capture to NLE - 200hrs @ $20/hr = $4000.00
Media - 50 (4.5 hour DV tapes) @ $70/each = $3500.00
Food - 25 days x $15 = $375.00

Estimate = $17875.00 CND

I know there will be render time (fast motion ramp) and some editing (title creation etc.), but I am grouping that with the capture cost at this point, as I already feel like I am pushing the envelope with this quote.

Does this sound right? Am I out to lunch? Is there anything I am missing?

Any feedback would be greatly apreciated.


DVXGalt
Veteran


Aug 2, 2005, 1:56 PM

Post #2 of 11 (1365 views)
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Re: [sky writer] Commercial quote... [In reply to] Can't Post

20 seconds @ 30fps = 600 frames. Any additional frames will be lost (or smeared).

600 frames / 200 hours of work = 3 frames per hour.

Buy a still camera that does intervals, set to take a pic every 20 minutes. ($300)
Build a house for it, so it can just sit there for a few weeks untouched. ($2000??)
Go check it every day (20 days * $100) ($2000??)

Dump it all into a compositor/animator to create a motion video out of it.

You will be way ahead.

I have no idea if this will work, but I would sure test it.


sky writer
Enthusiast


Aug 2, 2005, 2:28 PM

Post #3 of 11 (1363 views)
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Re: [DVXGalt] Commercial quote... [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for the reply.

I already went over the advantage of the "still camera" time lapse idea with the client, and he says he wants video. I think he may want to have all the footage in case he decides to do something else with it in the future. What, I don't know. Maybe a promotional piece. I have been over the hours, minutes, seconds, frames issue with him and he says that whatever I need to do to make it fit, that's what he wants. He says that he isn't after perfection, but he has seen many time lapse effects in commercials and he wants one for his company.

I will obviously not be using all 8 hours of video from each day, only that which includes critical activity. But I will be capturing all 8 hours as there is no way I will be standing by the camera/VTR hitting record and stop all day. I realize that this will still be way too much to fit into a 20 second piece in an effective way, but this client wants it the way they want it.

One problem I see with the "still camera" approach is that the 3 images that the camera will capture (if set at 20 minute intervals) in an hour may miss important action. Where as with the video approach, I will be able to choose the best moments to include.

As strange as it may sound I actually spent an hour on the telephone and a long email exchange telling this client that a 20 second time lapse created from a 25 day video shoot will be a waste of money, and will likely not result in a professional presentation (with the many potential changes in exposure caused by weather). He said that he is very serious and committed to this idea and if I don't do it, he will find another company.

I guess I should just send him the estimate and see what happens.


DVXGalt
Veteran


Aug 2, 2005, 5:35 PM

Post #4 of 11 (1348 views)
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Re: [sky writer] Commercial quote... [In reply to] Can't Post

Yep. All you can do is try to help them, and then bid it (including prepayment terms) so you don't get screwed when they are unhappy. And bid it a little high, to allow for things you have not considered, like rain cover equipment, delays for rain (you may not work 8 hours each day, so will need more days). Don't forget the 3 TB of disk you will need to put all this footage on line at one time. WIll they want real or fake timecode on the picture? It may affect capture strategy depending on your equipment.

I wondered about those 4.5 hr DV tapes, must be some technology I haven't learned about. I only know about 60 min and 80min tapes, and 80 min not so reliable. I am confused that you have 200 hours for capture, and no time allowed for watching it all and editing.

Your rates seem low for capture. And you might consider a day rate for shooitng, to cover the partial-day issue.

Good luck, be sure to let us know what happens.


sky writer
Enthusiast


Aug 2, 2005, 6:07 PM

Post #5 of 11 (1344 views)
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Re: [DVXGalt] Commercial quote... [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Don't forget the 3 TB of disk you will need to put all this footage on line at one time. WIll they want real or fake timecode on the picture? It may affect capture strategy depending on your equipment.


I don't plan on capturing all at the same time. I will take chunks and do the fast motion render, then save those chunks. I am burnt out, so chunks is the technical word of the day.

Timecode? They do not want timecode window dubs. At least that has never been mentioned.

4.5 hour DV (not miniDV) tapes.

I don't plan on doing much editing on this quote. That will come when the final shots are taken next year and will be considered another contract.


sky writer
Enthusiast


Aug 3, 2005, 12:52 PM

Post #6 of 11 (1321 views)
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Re: [DVXGalt] Commercial quote... [In reply to] Can't Post

I have spoken with the owner and gave him a ballpark of $30,000 for the video aproach and he is now showing some receptive attitude toward the "digital still" approach.

But I have no idea how to price a digital still time lapse shoot. I do not want to sit on site every day while a still camera takes a few pictures an hour. But I also want to make some money on the job, if I continue to bid on it.

He is persistant that he wants to hire someone to do everything, and that neither he nor anyone else on his crew will be responsible for the camera or operation. So do I stand there all day for $600 a day, or drive to the site each morning to start it and stop it each night? If I were to enter a scenario like that my day will still be very disrupted and so how do I price my time for that circumsatnce.

Man, this is why I am not cut out for this type of work. Too many disjointed variables. I love documentary style shooting, like weddings. My day starts and then I capture EVERYTHING until I go home. And then I'm DONE!

Any further assistance would be greatly apreciated.


DVXGalt
Veteran


Aug 3, 2005, 1:44 PM

Post #7 of 11 (1304 views)
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Re: [sky writer] Commercial quote... [In reply to] Can't Post

At least one of us knew that would happen. :)

You really don't need to babysit the camera. Hire a reliable mom to go there twice a day, or just leave it running. If you are taking one picture per minute (probably overkill), that is 500 pics per 8 hour day, well within the capabilities of a decent sized memory card. If it were me, I would design procedures & systems so it could go two days before you miss anything, but still doable considering that you don't need a pic every minute and DV resolution is only about .4 MP.

At 5 minute intervals, 12 pics/hour x 24 hours is still only 288 pics per day, and you can leave it running all the time. Unload it every 2-3 days. Don't forget about battery time.

Hire a mom to go by the job site every morning to turn it on and every night to turn it off and swap out a memory card + battery and deliver it to you. This would cost you less than $50 a day. By having three cards and batteries, you can easily keep them in motion without wasting time.

SO a camera with three hicap cards and extra batteries = $500?
20 days @ $50 a day = $1000
20 days at 15 minutes a day for uploading = 5 hours x your $50 rate = $250.
Edit time ??? 20 hours?? $1000.

You could bid $4000 including editing and make a decent profit. But you better double check my rough guesses at numbers.

Corp work is about solving problems and doing it all for the client. If you don't like thinking new situations thru, just stick with formula weddings. Personally, I LIKE the challenges and variety of corp work, I would get brain dead doing weddings every weekend.


sky writer
Enthusiast


Aug 3, 2005, 2:08 PM

Post #8 of 11 (1301 views)
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Re: [DVXGalt] Commercial quote... [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for thinking this through. Don't get me wrong, I love to trouble shoot, and work at something different.

What really troubles me about this particular project is, what if something goes wrong. I will not know until it is too late. That is why the client wants nothing to do with the production, because he doesn't want to screw it up. So if I charge him for a professional product, I BETTER NOT screw it up. There is no TAKE 2 in this job. Once the job is done, that's it. And it is a MAJOR job for this company, and therefore a major job for me.


Quote
Hire a mom to go by the job site every morning to turn it on and every night to turn it off and swap out a memory card + battery and deliver it to you. This would cost you less than $50 a day.

I've never heard of anyone "hiring a mom", is that a trade term I'm unfamiliar with? I would not trust this kind of responsibility to anyone but myself. If something goes wrong, I wouldn't want to say that "the mom" I hired for $50, messed it up.


Quote
If it were me, I would design procedures & systems so it could go two days before you miss anything, but still doable considering that you don't need a pic every minute and DV resolution is only about .4 MP.

So would you suggest NOT capturing at the best resolution. I was thinking this morning that to add some flair to this time lapse that by using high resolution (4-5megapixels) I could add a slow zoom to the finished movie that would highlight the centerpiece of the job. It would add the feel of a third dimension to the end result.


videobear
Veteran


Aug 3, 2005, 2:47 PM

Post #9 of 11 (1297 views)
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Re: [sky writer] Commercial quote... [In reply to] Can't Post

If it's destined for video, all you need is 720x532 to translate accurately into CCIR 601 nonsquare pixels at 720x480.




Regards,
Doug Graham
Panda Productions


sky writer
Enthusiast


Aug 3, 2005, 8:31 PM

Post #10 of 11 (1270 views)
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Re: [videobear] Commercial quote... [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Doug,

I fully realize the limitations of NTSC and pixel space, but with higher resolutions I can utilize the zoom idea that I am considering.

Basically, you capture the entire time lapse as a static shot, then you create a zoom motion effect on the timeline. I've seen a few of these and they really add some flash to the average time lapse presentation.


SSFX
Novice

Aug 4, 2005, 6:26 AM

Post #11 of 11 (1260 views)
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Re: [sky writer] Commercial quote... [In reply to] Can't Post

Sky writer,

I just put a reply to your post on the wedding forum. Then I came here and saw the posts on this forum.

I am glad to see your words below. I believe that you have hit the "nail on the head". This client wants what he has seen before in terms of a time lapse video. (Question, have you or this client seen a time lapse video of the type that he wants and if so can he get a copy of it for you.) For the price he is willing to pay he will want a profession result (no matter what he says now) and a professional who will know how to do the job and solve the related "issues" that will come up.

I fully agree with you that you do NOT want to hire a "mom" to come by in the mornings to start the camera. This job is important to the client and thus you need to convey to them that you understand this and will give the job all of the attention that it will require to guarantee its success -- which means you paying personal attention to the job.

As I suggested in my other post I would also look into insurance implications here and I would recomend that you consider "producer" insurance (I think that is what it is called) to protect you in case anything goes wrong during the 25 day shoot and "ruins" the video and the client thus sues you for significant damages since this was a "major" job for them and thus the desired video is not easily "obtained" and for the resulting "loss" in business, etc.

I think that the best suggestion that I might have is to research in the various magazines, like DV and Videography, to see if they have any articles about similar jobs and to hopefully find out what the production companies did in those cases -- and if you find the name of the company that did such work and if they are out of town give them a call and see if they will talk with you about such a job and what suggestions they might have for you.

I hope this helps some.

Ron Bridegroom
ShowStoppersFX.com
Innovative Video Services

Check out our motion backgrounds, lower thirds, overlays, pyro and particle effect animations for event and corporate videos at: http://www.showstoppersfx.com