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Home: Video University Forums: Marketing & Business:
Instructional Video - Rights Issue?

 

 


scrow9
Novice

Oct 17, 2004, 12:02 PM

Post #1 of 17 (2954 views)
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Instructional Video - Rights Issue? Can't Post

Just a quick question...if I produce an instructional video on, for instance, how to use a particular piece of software or a training tape on using some other device,naturally I'd include plenty of shots of that product.

Do I owe the manufacturer of that software product anything? Do I have to get their permission first? I have always wondered the same thing about people who write books about say, Photoshop. Do you think they had to contact Adobe first?

SteveSmile


scrow9
Novice

Oct 23, 2004, 7:31 PM

Post #2 of 17 (2877 views)
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Re: [scrow9] Instructional Video - Rights Issue? [In reply to] Can't Post

Cool Come on People! (ha ha!) Anyone have an idea about this? Some of you must have done training tapes/DVDs before, yes?


mjeppsen
Veteran


Oct 25, 2004, 11:13 AM

Post #3 of 17 (2847 views)
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Re: [scrow9] Instructional Video - Rights Issue? [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't have any experience with your situation, just a suggestion. If you don't get an answer here, perhaps you should broaden your search to more legally oriented forums & sites. This issue would be covered by general copyright law methinks, and certainly doesn't seem indigenous to videography. Also, Steven Gotz on adobeforums.com & creativecow.net might have experience with this...I think he does a lot of corporate training videos? Post back here if you find anything...good luck!

Matt Jeppsen
www.FreshDV.com


scrow9
Novice

Oct 25, 2004, 5:08 PM

Post #4 of 17 (2831 views)
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Re: [mjeppsen] Instructional Video - Rights Issue? [In reply to] Can't Post

Smile Matt, thanks very much for your ideas, I will indeed follow-up and will post back here whatever I find out!

Steve


scrow9
Novice

Oct 27, 2004, 1:03 AM

Post #5 of 17 (2805 views)
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Re: [scrow9] Instructional Video - Rights Issue? [In reply to] Can't Post

Well here is what I have been able to find out so far, for this I have relied heavily on the information found at http://infoshare1.princeton.edu/...ight.html#fair%20use

First of all, here is the Fair Use law:

Section 107 of the Copyright Act of 1976. Limitations on exclusive rights: Fair Use

Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 106 and 106A, the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified in that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright.


The Princeton site then goes on to say:
But note that the concept of "fair use" provides limited exemption, and does not encompass wholesale copying and distribution of copyrighted work for educational or any other purpose, without permission.

Copyright law does not specify the exact limitations of fair use. Instead, the law provides four interrelated standards or tests, which must be applied in each case to evaluate, whether the copying or distributing falls within the limited exemption of fair use.

Here are the four standards:

  1. The purpose and character of the use.
    Duplicating and distributing selected portions of copyrighted materials for specific educational purposes falls within fair use guidelines, particularly if the copies are made spontaneously, for temporary use, and not as part of an anthology.
  2. The nature of the copyrighted work.
    Fair use applies more readily to copying paragraphs from a primary source than to copying a chapter from a textbook. Fair use applies to multimedia materials in a manner similar if not identical to print media.
  3. The amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole
    Copying extracts that are short relative to the whole work and distributing copyrighted segments that do not capture the "essence" of the work are generally considered fair use.
  4. The effect of use on the potential market for or value of the work.
    If copying or distributing the work does not reduce sales of the work, then the use may be considered fair. Of the four standards, this is arguably the most important test for fair use.

So here is my argument, from a non-lawyer,see if this makes any sense:

An instructional DVD or videotape of software or other physical products IS allowable under Fair Use because:

1. A special interest instructional video or DVD is meant for the purpose of comment and teaching (granted not in a traditional classroom setting!)

2. For the purposes of training, only selected portions of the software application or product are being shown not the entire application, it's "essence" is left intact...meaning I am not distributing the actual software product itself, only describing its use

3. The effect is not to harm the potential market for the product I am demonstrating in the video, in fact it may very much help sales of that product.





(This post was edited by scrow9 on Oct 27, 2004, 1:10 AM)


videobear
Veteran


Oct 27, 2004, 8:54 AM

Post #6 of 17 (2798 views)
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Re: [scrow9] Instructional Video - Rights Issue? [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't think so, Scrow.

I haven't replied to this thread before, because I don't know the exact answer to your question...but I'm pretty sure that the Fair Use clause wouldn't apply to an instructional video intended for sale. That "multiple copies for classroom use" is supposed to cover things like a prof making copies of a film for student critiques, not a for-profit venture.

As I say, I don't know the answer, but my feeling is that any company would be happy to see their product featured in an instructional video (provided you don't say stuff like, "this is a stupid product, and this other product is much better"). But you should contact them and ask.




Regards,
Doug Graham
Panda Productions


DSE
Veteran


Oct 27, 2004, 8:20 PM

Post #7 of 17 (2776 views)
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Re: [videobear] Instructional Video - Rights Issue? [In reply to] Can't Post

Fair Use is probably the most bandied about and misunderstood simple concept in law today.
No, your arguments don't hold water. If you choose to do a video about Adobe's Encore product, they'll likely not give you grief because it's marketing for them. However, you also don't have any legal right to their GUI, nor right to display their GUI outside normal use of their application in your home or office or wherever your license for that product resides.
Getting permission is not a big deal, even from Microsoft. We do this regularly.
For more info on copyright issues:
http://www.vasst.com/...aveats_copyright.htm



Douglas Spotted Eagle
Author, producer, composer
www.vasst.com
"I enjoy music, long walks at sunset on the beach, and poking dead things with a sharp stick."

(This post was edited by DSE on Oct 27, 2004, 8:40 PM)


scrow9
Novice

Oct 28, 2004, 7:16 PM

Post #8 of 17 (2746 views)
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Re: [DSE] Instructional Video - Rights Issue? [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks Douglas...I am still trying to find a definitive answer, everyone says "probably not a problem, but get permission first" and maybe that's as close as I am going to be able to get to it. I guess I could pay for an hours worth of an Attorney's time but who the heck wants to do that? ha ha!


DSE
Veteran


Oct 28, 2004, 7:23 PM

Post #9 of 17 (2743 views)
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Re: [scrow9] Instructional Video - Rights Issue? [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't think you CAN get a definitive answer, because it's quite possible that the software company wouldn't be happy about it.
I'll give you an example...
During the writing of my Vegas book, I was not permitted to use screenshots from the Betaware, because there may or may not have been screenshots that would make the final product. Same with our VASST Vegas 5 Training disc. We shot and released it just 2 weeks before the product came out in it's 'a' format. Network rendering wasn't working at that point, so we could only talk about it. We caught a little grief for that. No one sued us, but they could have...Our bad. We learned.

Douglas Spotted Eagle
Author, producer, composer
www.vasst.com
"I enjoy music, long walks at sunset on the beach, and poking dead things with a sharp stick."


scrow9
Novice

Oct 28, 2004, 9:01 PM

Post #10 of 17 (2737 views)
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Re: [DSE] Instructional Video - Rights Issue? [In reply to] Can't Post

Very interesting....So, I gather that what the software companies were upset about, wasn't your "right" to produce the video but rather that their product would be misrepresented and so it might cause them financial harm?

Did they ever say that it was a copyright violation just to produce the DVD in the first place, even if you had waited until the first official release of the product?

I have posted the same question to misc.legal.moderated, maybe other people will chime in too.

Honestly, the sense I am getting is that the majority of the smaller independent video producers don't bother getting permissions from the company, hoping instead to fly beneath the radar. I wonder if there are first ammendment issues here too? Is the ability to write a book or produce a video guaranteed by free speech? Granted, even if it is...that wouldn't mean you could violate copyright.

Thanks again for sharing your experiences!

Steve


DSE
Veteran


Oct 28, 2004, 9:13 PM

Post #11 of 17 (2733 views)
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Re: [scrow9] Instructional Video - Rights Issue? [In reply to] Can't Post

They don't need to notify me that it is or isn't a copyrights violation. That part is clear. Of course it is.
If you are making replications of their GUI and it's for profit education, it doesn't remotely clear Fair Use.

That's my point....Making a training video of a product in no way, shape or form can be construed as Fair Use unless you're an educational institution making a video for your students of a class that is part of a curriculum.
  • It doesn't fall under criticism and comment.
  • It doesn't fall under news reporting.
  • It doesn't fall under scholarship and/or research (and if it did, it can only be short passages related to a specific subject)
  • It doesn't fall into NPO Educational use.
  • It doesn't fall into Parody.

These are the factors considered and considerable for Fair Use exception.
I'm not an attorney. I may be wrong. I've given significant years of my life to researching this subject, and have written about it extensively. I've also been wrong on these issues before, but the attorney in the Copyrights DVD is also very clear on the tests of Fair Use.
http://www.broadcastnewsroom.com/...opyright_caveats.htm

Douglas Spotted Eagle
Author, producer, composer
www.vasst.com
"I enjoy music, long walks at sunset on the beach, and poking dead things with a sharp stick."


videobear
Veteran


Oct 28, 2004, 10:48 PM

Post #12 of 17 (2731 views)
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Re: [scrow9] Instructional Video - Rights Issue? [In reply to] Can't Post

Steve,

Don't hire an attorney...you probably don't need to. Just contact the company whose product you want to use in your video. Explain your project to them, and ask for their permission. Get it in writing. Comply with any requests they have, e.g. to review the project before you distribute it, or to give them a credit.

In all likelihood, they will be happy to have someone selling a product that promotes theirs. Just ASK THEM FIRST. You won't know whether you have a problem or not until you do.




Regards,
Doug Graham
Panda Productions


scrow9
Novice

Nov 3, 2004, 6:19 PM

Post #13 of 17 (2657 views)
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Re: [videobear] Instructional Video - Rights Issue? [In reply to] Can't Post

I thought some of you might be interested in a thread I started on this same subject over at the misc.legal.moderated newsgroup.

I hope this URL will get you there:

http://groups.google.com/...misc.legal.moderated

Steve


DSE
Veteran


Nov 4, 2004, 4:06 PM

Post #14 of 17 (2606 views)
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Re: [scrow9] Instructional Video - Rights Issue? [In reply to] Can't Post

I guess I'm failing to see why you don't just send a letter to the software company that you are wanting to do a training video for, and get their take on it? The fact that you seem to continue avoiding the most direct route to your question's answer suggests something is amiss.

You will not get a determined answer to the question, because the law can be interpreted so many different ways by any number of judges, lawyers, paralegals, and interested parties. The ONLY people that can give you a definite answer is the people that own the software. The law itself is clear. Interpretation is not. Maybe the lawyers in your other thread have a different answer. I'm on slow dialup and so haven't gone there to look.

If you're only looking for a black/white answer to a very open question, and aren't applying it to a real world scenario...then the answer is Go Do It. Since you're not really doing it anyway in the above implied comment, you can't be hurt nor harm anyone. If you really ARE doing a video, why not send a letter? If they don't want it and want to fight you, better to have it come up early rather than late, isn't it? Seems you're wasting a lot of your time asking questions of everyone except the people that can actually accurately answer it from their perspective.

Douglas Spotted Eagle
Author, producer, composer
www.vasst.com
"I enjoy music, long walks at sunset on the beach, and poking dead things with a sharp stick."


scrow9
Novice

Nov 4, 2004, 4:42 PM

Post #15 of 17 (2602 views)
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Re: [DSE] Instructional Video - Rights Issue? [In reply to] Can't Post

I guess I'm failing to see why you don't just send a letter to the software company that you are wanting to do a training video for, and get their take on it? The fact that you seem to continue avoiding the most direct route to your question's answer suggests something is amiss.

Sorry to dissapoint you but nothing "is amiss." It's called research...I am simply trying to understand potential issues before launching into a new business area. Sorry you seem to be so annoyed. If I do decide to go ahead and produce a video you can rest assured I WILL write a letter.

Since you're not really doing it anyway in the above implied comment, you can't be hurt nor harm anyone. If you really ARE doing a video, why not send a letter?

What comment is that?

Seems you're wasting a lot of your time asking questions of everyone except the people that can actually accurately answer it from their perspective.

The last thing I would call it is a waste of my time, the reason I am pursuing this issue here is that my sense is that most video producers of instructional DVDs I have seen have NOT gotten prior permission and so I wanted to get real world experience and opinions from those that may have more experience than I.

Steve


videobear
Veteran


Nov 4, 2004, 4:57 PM

Post #16 of 17 (2596 views)
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Re: [DSE] Instructional Video - Rights Issue? [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks, DSE. I had started to reply to Steve in much the same vein, but you beat me to it, and (as usual) said it better.

(That other board, by the way, doesn't contain lawyers, just more video folks...and they're not giving Steve good advice, IMO.)

So, to sum up: Steve, quit wasting your time here. Go directly to the source, explain your project, and ASK THEM!!!





Regards,
Doug Graham
Panda Productions


DSE
Veteran


Nov 4, 2004, 5:08 PM

Post #17 of 17 (2593 views)
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Re: [scrow9] Instructional Video - Rights Issue? [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm not at all annoyed, just thought you were in a time-sensitive situation. As a short answer, stated by a few above as well, you'll NOT get a clear black/white response to this. It's situational. Not subjective, situational.
As an example, Microsoft might get a little unhappy if Steve Case from AOL was to present himself in an Internel Explorer demo. Sony might not like an Apple guy presenting Vegas. It might be that the company is planning to discontinue that product soon, or upgrade it soon. lots of possibilities. But....Now that I realize you're playing in hypotheticals rather than real life, I'll disengage.

Douglas Spotted Eagle
Author, producer, composer
www.vasst.com
"I enjoy music, long walks at sunset on the beach, and poking dead things with a sharp stick."