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Home: Video University Forums: Marketing & Business:
Music Copyrights...

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X-Tal
Imported Account

Jun 19, 2004, 2:18 AM

Post #1 of 37 (6160 views)
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Music Copyrights...	Can't Post

If I record my own cover version of a song or musical piece, and plan to use it in a film or video that i produce, what licenses do I have to pay. And who do I contact about negotiating such things?

captaincrunch
Novice

Aug 20, 2004, 1:16 PM

Post #2 of 37 (6026 views)
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Re: [X-Tal] Music Copyrights... [In reply to]	Can't Post

whoever holds the copyright to the music/song. Usually the record label.

videobear
Veteran

Aug 20, 2004, 3:03 PM

Post #3 of 37 (6020 views)
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Re: [captaincrunch] Music Copyrights... [In reply to]	Can't Post

These days, you have to get permissions from at least two different places.

A clearance agency, such as The Harry Fox Agency, http://www.harryfox.com , handles mechanical licenses. This is the basic permission to use the song in your work.
The music publisher must be contacted directly to secure a synchronization license. This is the right to use a particular performance of the song "synchronized" to video material.
If the music is in the public domain (such as many classical pieces), you must still obtain permissions from the organization that performed the piece, or the publisher who has the rights to that performance.

Fees will depend on the planned use, number of copies anticipated, and the greed and/or fame of the copyright holder. For many low-budget projects, it makes more sense to use buyout music (music written and performed with the express expectation of selling it to film and video producers), or to compose your own using a loop-based music creation program like Sony's Acid.

Regards,
Doug Graham
Panda Productions

jantappe
New User

Sep 6, 2004, 9:19 AM

Post #4 of 37 (5945 views)
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Re: [X-Tal] Music Copyrights... [In reply to]	Can't Post

Another possibility is to get a composer for scoring original music.

if interested please check some samples of my work:

www.optik-tappe.de
(choose one of the "Beispiel"-links to hear mp3 samples)

lots of greetings
Jan Tapp� Smile

jamey
Novice

Sep 24, 2004, 8:34 AM

Post #5 of 37 (5817 views)
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Re: [videobear] Music Copyrights... [In reply to]	Can't Post

Videobear
I just met with an entertainment lawyer yesterday about the issue of using copywritten music. Something has changed recently
My wife and I are offering video scrapbooking and have held off using copywritten music because it is basically illegal.
The lawyer confirmed what we found out recently, which is that Harry Fox is no longer offering sync licences (or video licences)
We would have to contact ascap or bmi ourselves - To which he told us not to even bother to try. They view small wedding videographers requests for small licences for a few copies of music synced to video as not worth there time.
However, he has a contact with an executive with BMI and will get back to us. (If we can afford to meet with him again - perhaps we'll have some more information to offer)
james
jamsam33@adelphia.net

videobear
Veteran

Sep 24, 2004, 8:56 AM

Post #6 of 37 (5813 views)
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Re: [jamey] Music Copyrights... [In reply to]	Can't Post

Yes, that's what I was saying. HFA only handles the mechanical licenses these days; the publisher or other copyright holder must issue the sync license.

But you're right that the industry sees the wedding videographers as very "small potatoes", and is unlikely to come after us.

Regards,
Doug Graham
Panda Productions

jamey
Novice

Sep 24, 2004, 9:10 AM

Post #7 of 37 (5810 views)
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Re: [videobear] Music Copyrights... [In reply to]	Can't Post

DOug: He mentioned that in 35 years, he has never seen anyone gone after for this.

The lawyer basically said that to use the arguement that the music is covered under "fair use" might be a good agrument (in court) although technically wrong. So, its a grey area I guess because if they won't give us a licence (I've tried) then what message are they sending to us?
So, how do you view the issue? Do you stick with royalty free music in your productions. I have been looking all over the web at videographers samples and they all use copywritten music.
The principle I was left with is this : The record companies only step in if they see mass duplication of thier product. Which we don't fall into.
I guess I wish it was not so grey - I feel kind of "cheezy" to have my clients sign an agreement saying that I'm off the hook for using copywritten music(by them signing that they "own" this copy of the song). But BMI /ASCAP does not offer any solutions.
The lawyer who charged me a fortune to print out alot of articles that he has publised on the issue basically left me more confused as to how to handle it.

videobear
Veteran

Sep 24, 2004, 11:37 AM

Post #8 of 37 (5807 views)
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Re: [jamey] Music Copyrights... [In reply to]	Can't Post

What do I do?

I use copyrighted music in my wedding videos like almost everyone else. (There are some exceptions, and I applaud them for their high moral stand). When possible, I either have the client furnish the music, or I go out and buy it myself. If the latter, it's only used for the one production; If I need the same song for a future project, I'll go out and buy it again.

I tape the reception dances and use the DJ's music for them, even though he almost certainly doesn't have a sync permission.

I tape the songs used in plays and dance recitals, too, right along with the dancers and the actors.

These are all, technically, copyright violations. I will no doubt burn in hell for them, with a team of musicians and record company executives piling on the coals. At your own trial, if you use "Well, Doug did it" as a defense, don't blame me if it doesn't work. Putting an "escape clause" in your contract won't work, either. But I betcha neither one of us ever gets slapped.

Regards,
Doug Graham
Panda Productions

jamey
Novice

Sep 24, 2004, 11:43 AM

Post #9 of 37 (5804 views)
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Re: [videobear] Music Copyrights... [In reply to]	Can't Post

Well, it we ever get slapped. I would show them the phone log of attempting to reach Ascap, and all ignored attempts to get licensing.
Although I agree, who would really prosecute.
Ok, thanks for you input.
although the lawyer suggested as having a clause in the contract indemnifying myself.

Chris B
Novice

Oct 7, 2004, 10:35 AM

Post #10 of 37 (5718 views)
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Re: [jamey] Music Copyrights... [In reply to]	Can't Post

I do small one-off video work as well, and do use published music. I do always purchase the music, so at least when visiting Hell you can tell the Devil that the artist did get some revenue. I also think this is a case of "don't ask,don't tell" because in reality, the record labels and the artists are really not damaged, as long as the work is not mass produced. Sleep easier knowing that "no harm, no foul" would come into play, and although technically you may be violating the copyright, the damages would be so small that the cost of the lawyer to file would far outpace those collected damages, hence why you've never seen a lawsuit.

DSE
Veteran

Oct 27, 2004, 8:31 PM

Post #11 of 37 (5618 views)
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Re: [jamey] Music Copyrights... [In reply to]	Can't Post

The lawyer basically said that to use the arguement that the music is covered under "fair use" might be a good agrument (in court) although technically wrong.

FIRE THAT STUPID SOB IMMEDIATELY!! And then report his stupidity to the bar. What an idiot your lawyer must be. Fair Use, the use of that term, would IMMEDIATELY get your butt in trouble. If anything, the argument is that it's a DiMinimus case, where the holder of copyright has to prove what money you cost him.
And now, as of 2 years ago, illegal use of copyrighted material can also be a criminal offense, punishable by EACH USE.

Further, you having someone sign a paper that "you aren't responsible because you used illegal music in their video" only buys you MORE trouble because you've just legally informed the court that you were part of an illegal action and knew about it.

"I'm sorry your honor, I'm not responsible for the bank robbery because I made the actual thieves sign a note that said I wasn't responsible for driving them away from the bank."

He mentioned that in 35 years, he's never seen anyone 'gone after for this?' Further proof he's incompetent in this area of law. It's happening every day, and has been for a long, long time. A videographer in Las Vegas was busted to the tune of nearly 80 grand for several years worth of violations. He's appealing now.
C'mon gang, we all know using music that isn't ours or buyout is illegal. Why is so much effort put into justifying it? Either do it and pray you don't get caught or don't do it at all and sleep well knowing your business will still be there in the morning. But don't attempt to justify it. Please remember, I'm one of those musicians people steal from.

To the original question, what licenses do you pay, if you've recorded your own arrangement of the song, you'd only be liable for mechanicals, and those are Congressionally mandated and limited.

For more info on copyright issues:
http://www.vasst.com/dvdproducts/caveats_copyright.htm

Douglas Spotted Eagle
Author, producer, composer
www.vasst.com
"I enjoy music, long walks at sunset on the beach, and poking dead things with a sharp stick."

DJ
Enthusiast

Nov 27, 2004, 2:56 AM

Post #12 of 37 (5339 views)
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Re: [jamey] Music Copyrights... [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

Uh... nothing grey about it. The message they are sending you is loud and clear, they're not giving you a license because they don't want you to use their work in your project.

THEY (holders of the copyright) are not OBLIGATED to give us a license. It's their choice, not ours.

License Plate: DJ
Make the Time 4 Oh 9

jamey
Novice

Nov 27, 2004, 3:22 PM

Post #13 of 37 (5322 views)
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Re: [DJ] Music Copyrights... [In reply to]	Can't Post

Good point DJ, it really is not a grey area, your right.
The lawyer was not suggestion that I should use the agruement of fair use. Because it is not fair use at all. Its illegal.

DVXGalt
Veteran

Nov 28, 2004, 12:06 AM

Post #14 of 37 (5311 views)
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Re: [jamey] Music Copyrights... [In reply to]	Can't Post

I just don't get why BMI and ASCAp refuse to address this. They sign annual licenses with bars and restaurants and malls, with a typical fee of a few hundrd bucks. And bars play a heck of a lot of music. I bet most everyone here would be happy to pay that same few hundred dollar annual license to be able to use songs free and clear of worry. If they did it on an annual basis ( or maybe by total number of DVD's produced) they could make administration easy, and actually have some money to flow thru to the bottom line. They could even require a cue sheet so they could audit license claims. But signing one-up contracts for individual songs with individual videographers is clearly a nightmare, and why they just dump us all in the "too small to bother" pile. Ah well, no use complinaing to this group. No one told me I had to become a lawyer if I wanted to have my own business...

dvddynamix
User

Nov 19, 2005, 6:16 PM

Post #15 of 37 (4098 views)
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Re: [X-Tal] Music Copyrights... [In reply to]	Can't Post

I talked to a friend who runs a video business and he said that he keeps track of the songs he uses and how many times then goes to itunes and buys the musice. Could be 4 or 5 uses for one song so he buys it that many times. It may not be legal but he said that at least he can say that he is trying to do right.

TimDVbD
New User

Dec 11, 2005, 2:58 AM

Post #16 of 37 (3889 views)
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Re: [DJ] Music Copyrights... [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hello to all, seeing as this is my first post on the VU boards. My brother and I have recently decided to take our love of digital video and media in general and turn it into a business. In our pre-establishment meetings we talked a lot about the different issues that we were going to run across while trying to market our skills and this music copyright business was definately a hot topic. Neither of us knew a lot about the issue and we did some research on various forums and sites to find out what kind of liscensing issues and legalities were out there.

Obviously from the tone of some of the posts in this thread such as DJs and DSEs, a lot of videographers are just ignoring the moral and legal issues and this is causing concern among artists/producers/copyright holders somewhere along the line. We decided recently to not use any copyrighted music in our videos, but are now faced with what some people here have already addressed; daunting tasks such as coming up with a replacement via royalty-free or "bulk music" or securing synchronization rights for songs.

After having listened to samples of several of the "bulk music" I've got to say I'm very underwhelmed. Most of them were MIDI created (ie not real instruments, but sound similar) or very very cheesy, both of which being things that don't exactly add a "professional touch" to what we want to provide. I also tried to look into the convoluted world of legally securing synch rights and came up with the same nothing stated earlier in the thread. This may be due to the companies being uninterested in providing "small potatoes" groups with music when they could be spending their time getting much more lucrative deals. I really don't blame them on that aspect, and I don't think we have a right to use their music or obtain it for use. They really don't owe us anything and it doesn't seem to be in their best interrests to pursue it. I'm still upset that I can't provide a potential bride with what she wants in her highlight clip or photo montage, and it does make for difficult answers to questions like "Why can't you use songs with words?" or "Why can't we just use the songs we used for our ceremonies? Soandso does it for their clients and I don't think they've ever gotten in trouble." It's difficult preaching the moral high ground to a woman that you're trying to sell the emotional and vivid experience that a custom digital video wedding dvd can offer to. I haven't had enough experiene in the business to tell yet, but it worries me a lot. And here's another scary thought...are we violating copyrights by contracting wedding videos that contain copyrighted songs being used without permission? I mean this sounds pretty ridiculous and I don't think something like it would ever be prosecuted, but is it still wrong to sell that to someone? I don't know.

My questions are this:

Is there anything we can do legally to use any of recorded popular music realistically? If there's not any viable way to do this for smaller businesses that want to remain within the lines I think this should really be more common knowledge so people (such as myself) don't waste time emailing companies or scouring the internet, forums, etc.

If not, is there any GOOD (emphasis on good) music that is adaptable for a videographer? I'm talking wedding appropriate, upbeat, romantic, joyful, professional...something brides would definately not mind using as alternative to music we that take the "I'd rather not get sued someday" approach can't get.

What's the status on mechanical liscenses? This being the recording of a song by someone other than the original artist for distirbution. If I get some tallented vocalists to record songs that brides want to hear, can I use that in my videos after only having acquried the mechanical liscense? I have no clue on this one and maybe someone here can shed a little light on the idea. I really doubt that this is possible (or affordable) but it would be a great alternative for some of us

Edit: I did some more research tonight and as it turns out mechanical liscenses only aply to audio recordings. This pretty much eliminates the possibility of easliy recording music and using it in video. You absoloutely must have a sycnronization liscense to use it in video of any format, and a Master Liscense to both use the original recording and use it in a video. Bummer.

If there's no clear answer to any of this I guess I'll just have to take my crappy MIDI music and live with it, and sleep well at night poor Wink

Tim -Digital Video by Design-

(This post was edited by TimDVbD on Dec 11, 2005, 4:04 AM)

videobear
Veteran

Dec 11, 2005, 9:34 AM

Post #17 of 37 (3880 views)
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Re: [TimDVbD] Music Copyrights... [In reply to]	Can't Post

Tim,

Congratulations on taking the moral high ground. There IS good buyout music available; keep looking. There is also the possibility of making your own. Most people, myself included, have not fully explored the potential of loop-based music creation programs like Sony's Acid, but it's being used to make music for Hollywood productions by talented users. In fact, Hollywood's professional musicians are so scared of it that they passed a new regulation...live musicians are now mandatory for providing music at live events like the Oscar awards.

Regards,
Doug Graham
Panda Productions

mikedub02
New User

Dec 11, 2005, 10:04 PM

Post #18 of 37 (3847 views)
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Re: [X-Tal] Music Copyrights... [In reply to]	Can't Post

Your all forgetting one major thing and that is you might as well fold up shop right now if you are to get to the nitty gritty of the law, because we can not do anything within the confines of it for event videography. Whether it's taping the couple's first dance (of course assuming the DJ is playing music in the background) or simply taping the organist play the Wedding March. It is illegal to make a copy and then sell it. Even though the organist is playing "public domain" music once they play it and we make a recording you need them to sign the rights for you to use that in your video. But, it doesn't stop there, the same goes for people you have talk into the camera. What I do is simply purchase a copy of each song used in my video for each copy I produce. Sync laws are ridiculous in our business and morally speaking no ones getting hurt. Trust me I would have never bought a hundred copies of "Through The Years" if I wasn't producing photo montages. Anyway, the point is this, it is a near impossibiity to keep within the confines of the law and moral ethics and do Event Videography although I try as best I can. I won't even use graphics for producing Ad materials that are not licensed to me, but I will continue to do my job as an event videography.

-Mike

PS- No, the music playing in the background of say the father-daughter dance is not considered "incidental" and is illegal to use just the same as any other copyrighted piece of music.

videobear
Veteran

Dec 11, 2005, 11:51 PM

Post #19 of 37 (3836 views)
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Re: [mikedub02] Music Copyrights... [In reply to]	Can't Post

Quote

you might as well fold up shop right now if you are to get to the nitty gritty of the law, because we can not do anything within the confines of it for event videography.

By the letter of the law, you're right. But this is a very gray area. The doctrine of "incidental capture" applied to a DJ's music for the first dance, or to the organist's music at a ceremony, has not been tested in court. I'd bet money that if and when it is, it will be allowed, if only because of the 20+ years of precedent.

Quote

it is a near impossibiity to keep within the confines of the law and moral ethics and do Event Videography although I try as best I can.

As do we all. Your policy of buying the music each time you use it shows an excellent "good faith" effort to compensate the copyright owners. Again, this hasn't been tested in court, but I feel certain that it would be allowed as a "de minimis" impact.

Regards,
Doug Graham
Panda Productions

DVXGalt
Veteran

Dec 12, 2005, 9:20 AM

Post #20 of 37 (3819 views)
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Re: [mikedub02] Music Copyrights... [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

What I do is simply purchase a copy of each song used in my video for each copy I produce. Sync laws are ridiculous in our business and morally speaking no ones getting hurt. Trust me I would have never bought a hundred copies of "Through The Years" if I wasn't producing photo montages.

This will NOT protect you in any way, in fact it may even point out that you knew you were breaking the law. You would be better off taking that money and putting it in your future legal defense fund.

Richard Miller
Novice

Feb 20, 2006, 4:30 PM

Post #21 of 37 (3487 views)
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Re: [DVXGalt] Music Copyrights... [In reply to]	Can't Post

Sorry to resurrect this topic, but this seems to concern me. I am looking into a small startup in a potentially under-served community. there are no videographers in about 200 miles. I foresee weddings being a primary service. I plan on using royalty free where I can, but is it not uncommon for the happy couple to have a song played that is usually popular at the time? This is a deep concern for me. In fact this could be an issue to keep me from pursuing the biz. Do the real problems start if I mix a copyrighted music track and use it during editing, but if the song is played over a church PA and It records as ambient sound then things are a grey area?

DVXGalt
Veteran

Feb 20, 2006, 6:51 PM

Post #22 of 37 (3475 views)
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Re: [Richard Miller] Music Copyrights... [In reply to]	Can't Post

First IANAA.

Music played at the reception (or ceremony) can be recorded as "incidental" to the video recording. As soon start cutting to it, the game has changed.You SHOULD be safe in that respect at a wedding, sporting event, or other event. But when you start to record music recitals, dance programs, theater, and similar (where the music is a critical part of the program), your odds of getting sued go up and the incidental or fair use portions of copyright law do not apply.

Keep in mind that some others have different opinions. I think what I have said represents a conservative and safe position that is respectful of other people's copyrights in a reasonable manner, and probably immune form any copyright infringement claims.. However, some people violate copyrights with no regard for the ethics or morals, only "whether they get caught". YMMV.

Richard Miller
Novice

Feb 20, 2006, 11:40 PM

Post #23 of 37 (3464 views)
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Re: [DVXGalt] Music Copyrights... [In reply to]	Can't Post

thank you, I had a feeling that was the way it worked. some of the time, on occasion. btw, wtf is IANAA?

DVXGalt
Veteran

Feb 20, 2006, 11:44 PM

Post #24 of 37 (3462 views)
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Re: [Richard Miller] Music Copyrights... [In reply to]	Can't Post

I Am Not An Attorney

bullshark
Novice

Feb 22, 2006, 7:49 PM

Post #25 of 37 (3380 views)
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Re: [DVXGalt] Music Copyrights... [In reply to]	Can't Post

When you buy a music CD, you are in effect paying for a license to listen to it in your own home, the supporting media is immaterial and worth a few pennies at best.

When a bride ask for her favorite song, from the favorite CD that she bought, to be playing on her own wedding video, it's to listen to it, yes you guessed right, within the confine of her own home. AFAIK, wedding videos (I'm not in the business so I could be wrong)are not mass produced and/or distributed, no?

So could somebody please run the difference by me again?

(This post was edited by bullshark on Feb 22, 2006, 8:15 PM)

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