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Home: Video University Forums: Marketing & Business:
Web Video Options are Many!

 

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corelann
Enthusiast


May 24, 2009, 5:08 PM

Post #1 of 38 (1941 views)
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Web Video Options are Many! Can't Post

Video on the web? You've got a LOT of options out there for creating, developing, hosting, uploading, announcing, monetizing, marketing your videos. Check out "Video on the Web" at E.C. Come, E.C. Go and see what you can learn from these sites.


Kenneth
Veteran


May 25, 2009, 7:09 AM

Post #2 of 38 (1918 views)
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Another chapter of the book is finished. We're getting closer.

Before you go rattling off all these wonderful places to upload video you may want to mention in your book that all but a few video sites online will yank your video if you are using copyrighted music. And we know that everybody uses copyrighted music.



Philadelphia Wedding Video
The Kenneth Stillman Blog



Bob A
Veteran


May 25, 2009, 10:50 AM

Post #3 of 38 (1911 views)
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In Reply To
And we know that everybody uses copyrighted music.

Not everyone Kenneth, not everyone.


corelann
Enthusiast


May 25, 2009, 2:29 PM

Post #4 of 38 (1902 views)
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Re: [Kenneth] Web Video Options are Many! [In reply to] Can't Post

From the article:

“In addition to standard definition content, places like YouTube, Vimeo and even FaceBook now provide for high definition. Others as well. But keep in mind that YouTube currently has a 10-minute limit on clip length. You have options elsewhere to pay more, or less, or nothing, but each has its own set of rules regarding what you can or cannot show. Many of them hold the line at porno (nobody here doing any of that, right?), guard vigorously against copyright infringement, or react if somebody reports an infringement to them. Others are mildly non-reactive, even lethargic.�

If only you could read, you'd really be dangerous Wink

(This post was edited by corelann on May 25, 2009, 2:55 PM)


Kenneth
Veteran


May 25, 2009, 4:16 PM

Post #5 of 38 (1889 views)
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Re: [corelann] Web Video Options are Many! [In reply to] Can't Post

You write one sentence about copyright protection and that's supposed to cover it? With every article you write you show how just out of touch you are with what's really going on with video and the marketing and distribution.

I know you are probably just talking in general terms so that the book doesn't seem outdated in a year. But if your goal is to help people now you should go into greater detail.

And if were to go into detail you would explain how they identify copyrighted music thru audio recognition technology. You would also mention how some sights have arrangements with music publishers to allow copyrighted music to remain but will advertise on top of your video. Or some sites will give you the option of replacing the copyright music with something from a royalty free library.



Philadelphia Wedding Video
The Kenneth Stillman Blog



corelann
Enthusiast


May 26, 2009, 10:31 AM

Post #6 of 38 (1873 views)
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Re: [Kenneth] Web Video Options are Many! [In reply to] Can't Post

Not my job, nor the within the scope of the article, to warn readers of the perils of copyright violation. Rare is the bird who has not come across SOME negative aspect of using copyright music, or read one of your educational posts regarding the subject. Smile

(This post was edited by corelann on May 26, 2009, 10:32 AM)


grinner
User


Sep 7, 2009, 8:10 AM

Post #7 of 38 (1406 views)
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Thye only folks who pirate music and charge for it are the ones who are in this only until something better comes along... or worse. Either way, the professionals who plan to do this forever would never steal elements and put a black mark on their name.

;)


grinnerhester.com


DSE
Veteran


Sep 21, 2009, 6:58 PM

Post #8 of 38 (1322 views)
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In Reply To
Thye only folks who pirate music and charge for it are the ones who are in this only until something better comes along... or worse. Either way, the professionals who plan to do this forever would never steal elements and put a black mark on their name.


You'd think so, Grinner....but not true. In fact, I was a little stunned to find WEVA videos using copyrighted works....and they were great video pieces.

A lot of folks still don't understand copyright. It's been nearly 12 years since my first article on copyright law surfaced, and been 6 years since my lengthy article (I think it's still on this site) on copyright history, current practices, and curiously enough, the predictions in that article have all held to be accurate.
Folks just don't understand sync licenses, Masters, replication, needledrops, etc.Unsure

Douglas Spotted Eagle
Author, producer, composer
www.vasst.com
"I enjoy music, long walks at sunset on the beach, and poking dead things with a sharp stick."


KaseyMyGirl
Veteran


Sep 21, 2009, 7:38 PM

Post #9 of 38 (1319 views)
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Re: [DSE] Web Video Options are Many! [In reply to] Can't Post

Are you kidding me? Copyright music has been in video's at WEVA since day ONE!


DSE
Veteran


Sep 21, 2009, 7:45 PM

Post #10 of 38 (1315 views)
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In Reply To
Are you kidding me? Copyright music has been in video's at WEVA since day ONE!



Agreed, but WEVA has made it a point to try to preclude and protect people from themselves. You'd think folks would be able to recognize the freight train that is very likely to run them over, possibly sooner than later.

This is why we covered this topic heavily both in our Video for the Web DVD (2007 release) and our "Copyright; What You NEED to Know" DVD a few years back.

Douglas Spotted Eagle
Author, producer, composer
www.vasst.com
"I enjoy music, long walks at sunset on the beach, and poking dead things with a sharp stick."


KaseyMyGirl
Veteran


Sep 21, 2009, 7:53 PM

Post #11 of 38 (1313 views)
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Re: [DSE] Web Video Options are Many! [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote: You'd think folks would be able to recognize the freight train that is very likely to run them over, possibly sooner than later.

You'd think. But I'm not holding my breath. I'm guilty too. Unfortunately clients want what they here everyday, not needle drop/buy-out stuff.



Kenneth
Veteran


Sep 21, 2009, 10:58 PM

Post #12 of 38 (1304 views)
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In Reply To
A lot of folks still don't understand copyright.


Quote
Section 107 contains a list of the various purposes for which the reproduction of a particular work may be considered fair, such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research. Section 107 also sets out four factors to be considered in determining whether or not a particular use is fair:

The purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes
The nature of the copyrighted work
The amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole
The effect of the use upon the potential market for, or value of, the copyrighted work


I think the last line is this part of the fair use law is the reason that none of use has ever been sued for using copyrighted material. If you use a song from a band for a client's wedding video, which is meant for private home viewing, how much are you affecting the artists ability to sellor make income off that material?

And when we put these videos on our website and blog are we really affecting the market for the song? If anything I think we are helping in some cases. I know there are many songs that I never would have purchased off iTunes if I didn't hear it in another videographer's work. And with some of these songs that we use I am a firm believer that the artist is specifically targeting the wedding industry. Butterfly Kisses was a horrible song, but it took on a life of it's own as a father/daughter dance song and the guy probably made a million bucks because of brides using it.

I know that essentially we are breaking the law, but whether we are helping or hurting the artist can be debated. Several bands got "discovered through the use of Napster. I have read stories that the JK Wedding Entrance video helped to boost sales of the Chris Brown song Forever. I don't think the video person or the couple is attempting to make any money off the song. So Chris Brown could sue them but what would he get? No money and bad press. I think the same could be said for our products. Nobody wants to be known as the artist who sues videographers because one of their fans got married and wanted to use a song.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-94JhLEiN0



Philadelphia Wedding Video
The Kenneth Stillman Blog



DSE
Veteran


Sep 22, 2009, 6:35 AM

Post #13 of 38 (1284 views)
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In Reply To

In Reply To
A lot of folks still don't understand copyright.


Quote
Section 107 contains a list of the various purposes for which the reproduction of a particular work may be considered fair, such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research. Section 107 also sets out four factors to be considered in determining whether or not a particular use is fair:

The purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes
The nature of the copyrighted work
The amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole
The effect of the use upon the potential market for, or value of, the copyrighted work


I think the last line is this part of the fair use law is the reason that none of use has ever been sued for using copyrighted material. If you use a song from a band for a client's wedding video, which is meant for private home viewing, how much are you affecting the artists ability to sellor make income off that material?

And when we put these videos on our website and blog are we really affecting the market for the song? If anything I think we are helping in some cases. I know there are many songs that I never would have purchased off iTunes if I didn't hear it in another videographer's work. And with some of these songs that we use I am a firm believer that the artist is specifically targeting the wedding industry. Butterfly Kisses was a horrible song, but it took on a life of it's own as a father/daughter dance song and the guy probably made a million bucks because of brides using it.

I know that essentially we are breaking the law, but whether we are helping or hurting the artist can be debated. Several bands got "discovered through the use of Napster. I have read stories that the JK Wedding Entrance video helped to boost sales of the Chris Brown song Forever. I don't think the video person or the couple is attempting to make any money off the song. So Chris Brown could sue them but what would he get? No money and bad press. I think the same could be said for our products. Nobody wants to be known as the artist who sues videographers because one of their fans got married and wanted to use a song.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-94JhLEiN0


Lordy, Fair Use again reign's its ugly head.
Even WEVA has figured this out and articulated it well to members. In no way, shape, nor form will Fair Use/107 ever apply to professionally (or amateur) generated video, unless it's done by a family member, isn't loaded onto the web, and isn't distributed.
I really do recommend you learn the RIAA's purpose in this. The RIAA and MPAA don't care about bad press. Everyone thought v Tenenbaum or v Thomas would be "bad" for the recording industry. Nope...Not in the least. If you were to attend a NARAS conference, you'd see from any of them that there is a strategy for nailing violators. This is just the set-up.

Second, artists have ZERO control over whether their label or RIAA, publisher, or sync licensor sues you. Artists as a *general* rule sign those rights away when they enter into a publishing agreement, even if the artist maintains their own publishing (very rare, but done). Metallica is a rare instance where they as a band are notified of illegal use, and in appropriate cases, they've knocked on the door of the offender and served him/her in person as a publicity stunt.

You may want to read what world-famous IP attorney Paul Tauger has to say on the matter. Tenenbaum had some of the greatest attorneys in the biz on his side, and all he did was merely upload illegal music (effecting illegal distribution).
Event videographers are illegally replicating, illegally distributing, illegally syncronizing, and when you post information such as this, you prove you know you're doing so.
Copyright violation is now civil AND criminal. Not either/or. Both. Always.

Tenenbaum used this exact same paragraph in the Code as part of his defense. And was hammered down promptly.
Thomas didn't use it in the original defense, but did use it in the District and Federal Courts of Appeal. And was slapped down hard by all justices. We'll see what the SCOTUS does, and it'll be a surprise if they'll even hear it. The RIAA is praying they will. Because once that final nail (having gone from District to SCOTUS), they can start prosecuting smaller fish. It's how the legal machine works.

A quick quote on Tenenbaum' from the District Court of Appeals; "
If the "I forgot which songs I infringed" defense doesn't work, there's always fair use. Tenenbaum goes on to explain the next layer of his defense, taking a rather novel view of the four fair use factors. In his words:
Those four criteria are non-binding. Those are just suggestions.

Response;
The statute itself is quite clear that a court's consideration of the four factors isn't a mere suggestion; it's mandatory: "the factors to be considered shall include..."(emphasis mine).
And the Supreme Court agrees, noting in Campbell v. Acuff-Rose:
Nor may the four statutory factors be treated in isolation, one from another. All are to be explored, and the results weighed together, in light of the purposes of copyright.

In other words, even if you meet one of the six criteria for Fair Use (event videography meets none of them), the remaining four tests ALSO must be met in part or whole. Again, event video doesn't meet this criteria.

For what it's worth, I'm a strong proponent of copyright law reform, and do believe the copyright model as it exists today is archaic and fundamentally flawed in today's digital world. I'm doing what I can inside the industry to help change the model. I wish I had a short-use license for songs, even though I'm a songwriter/recording artist by profession. With over 500 registered works, it's in my best interest to protect AND promote them for licensing.

But I'm not willing to steal (and certainly not willing to boast of it) in the process so that I can make money on the backs of the artists that worked so very hard to deserve to be heard. You get paid for your work; so should they. Because their work makes your work look better. Because they own what you're stealing. Because someone else paid the freight to create what you've taken unto yourself. Most importantly, because it's the right thing to do.

Back to point; the question you should be asking yourself is if you can afford a criminal or civil judgement for illegal replication, distribution, sync, and mechanicals. If the answer is "no," then you might want to reexamine your methods.
Having spoken with Joel Tenenbaum at a conference earlier this year, he's still reeling from the impact of a 1.92million dollar judgement over only seven songs (when he'd admitted to uploading/downloading hundreds if not thousands).

I'm an very, very experienced skydiver. I'm cautious and conservative. A landing incident will never happen to me. 4 months and 400,000.00 later...I learned I was wrong.

I understand human nature is to say "It'll never happen to me."
Are you truly willing to risk your livelihood, home, business, on "it hasn't happened yet, and won't happen to me?"

Douglas Spotted Eagle
Author, producer, composer
www.vasst.com
"I enjoy music, long walks at sunset on the beach, and poking dead things with a sharp stick."


grinner
User


Sep 22, 2009, 6:47 AM

Post #14 of 38 (1280 views)
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Re: [DSE] Web Video Options are Many! [In reply to] Can't Post

I like your view points, DSE. (and I hope you are all healed up, brother!)
I've never been able to have respect for thieves of any kind. I've seen many a proud producer, videographer, editor or heck of other flavor try to show me their creation but as soon as Fly Me To The Moon starts playing as the bed and they give me a blank look when I ask how much that cost em, I just can't sit and witness the crime.
Ironicly, these same people are missing out on a profitable opportunity. Writing a song for the occasion and having local artists record it can easily double profits on many of the videos these songs are stolen for. In many cases, it's not even a request by the paying party but a suggestion from the pirate. It's almost as if they see their cd collection as their music library for production use.

;)


grinnerhester.com


Steve Yankee
User


Sep 22, 2009, 7:50 AM

Post #15 of 38 (1277 views)
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Re: [DSE] Web Video Options are Many! [In reply to] Can't Post

Amen, Spot. And Amen again.

Steve
Doc Yankee's Marketing Mojo
http://www.DocsMarketingMojo.com


DSE
Veteran


Sep 22, 2009, 8:40 AM

Post #16 of 38 (1276 views)
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Quote
I like your view points, DSE. (and I hope you are all healed up, brother!)



Not all healed up yet, but MUCH closer to normal than I was 3 months back. At least I'm walking, and ran on a track last night.


Quote
It's almost as if they see their cd collection as their music library for production use.


I don't think there is any "almost about it. Lessee...In the last decade, I've heard;

"Not my fault, customer demands it."
"The guy down the street does it, so I have to so I can compete."
"I bought the CD, I can do with it what I want."
"I'm helping the artist out, because no one would hear this song if it wasn't for me."
"The artist won't mind, it's a great video and it makes his song better." (This one makes me fall on my backside laughing...)
"It's legal because of Fair Use" (the scariest ignorance of all)
"I'm only using a few seconds from the song" (Tell that to Steve Gadd/Paul Simon, who successfully prosecuted the use of 2 bars of "50 Ways to Leave Your Lover").
"No one will ever know, and I'm only making 25 copies for the family." (People now know how to rip DVDs and put em' on YouTube)
"Artists will allow this, they want to be part of happy times and bring a better memory of someone's wedding." (Have you ASKED the artist?)
"Stock music just sounds so bad."
"Stock music is expensive."
"The record companies bring this on themselves by making this so difficult. I have no choice but to steal."
"It's just so small, no one cares." (multiply "Sometimes When We Touch" by 10000 weddings over 20 years, that's a HUGE license)

I understand most of our work is different, Grinner. But given that I do event videos at least three weekends a month, I'd really like to use certain songs for skydiving and endurance horseback events. But I won't. I did 70 SDE's last Saturday alone. I'd like to use copyrighted works. The very few non-library pieces I use are used with permission of the composer and/or artist. The guys in 10 Man Push, for example, allowed me to use anything I wanted off their album. This resulted in some folks from EXPN hearing Push, and they licensed "In the Dirt" for a Thrillbilly Circus with Travis Pastrana.

Douglas Spotted Eagle
Author, producer, composer
www.vasst.com
"I enjoy music, long walks at sunset on the beach, and poking dead things with a sharp stick."


grinner
User


Sep 22, 2009, 8:54 AM

Post #17 of 38 (1270 views)
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dude it's awesome that you're already getting to the track. maaad props, my friend.
I hear ya on the extreme sport stuff. I've found hitting local bands up makes for some wonderful refreshing tunage and it never breaks the bank. As a matter of fact, it often leads to more gigs... for that very band. Outside of that, man I really like dewolfemusic. They haggle and their music is great, compaired to most library canned music.
In doing so much work for prominant bands, I have also found it's often easy to get written permission for a well known song of choice without even writing a check. Often, they love the free promotion and want a copy of the finished piece. It's as easy as an email. I'd consider swiping this tunage without permission as sabatage on my own business. I can't afford that. My problem with others doing it is it is what makes it expensive for honest producers most of the time.

;)


grinnerhester.com


Kenneth
Veteran


Sep 22, 2009, 9:45 AM

Post #18 of 38 (1266 views)
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In Reply To
I've never been able to have respect for thieves of any kind.


So how much did it cost you for that Steve Miller song on your site? If you license that from the publishers of Steve Miller's music I think the details of how you obtained that and how much it cost would something of interest for everyone.



Philadelphia Wedding Video
The Kenneth Stillman Blog



Kenneth
Veteran


Sep 22, 2009, 9:54 AM

Post #19 of 38 (1264 views)
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Re: [DSE] Web Video Options are Many! [In reply to] Can't Post

Did you here this one yet?

"When and if they ever decide to sue wedding videographers they'll probably go after the companies who are charging top dollar because they are most likely the ones to recoup any damages."

That's from me and you can quote me. As soon as I hear a case where a wedding videographer has been sued I will change my business model. Until then copyrighted music is a necessity because the brides don't want crappy royalty free music that doesn't mean anything to them.



Philadelphia Wedding Video
The Kenneth Stillman Blog



grinner
User


Sep 22, 2009, 10:08 AM

Post #20 of 38 (1261 views)
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Re: [Kenneth] Web Video Options are Many! [In reply to] Can't Post

Utilizing resources is a big part of business. When I create tour spots for artists, a relationship is often created. Once that happens, it's as easy as communicating. In this case, I simply emailed and asked. It's a healthy way of saying "I dig your work, man" and all artists like their ego catered to... in my experience, anyway. My last demo sported Ozzy and the one before that featured Kid Rock. In both cases, it was taken as a thank you for their business and led to more work. Now, had I just pirated away, I don't think thet would have led to much and of course, that would only make my demo look bad from the view point of potential clientele.

;)


grinnerhester.com


Kenneth
Veteran


Sep 22, 2009, 12:47 PM

Post #21 of 38 (1256 views)
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In Reply To
Now, had I just pirated away, I don't think thet would have led to much and of course, that would only make my demo look bad from the view point of potential clientele.


I really don't think it would matter. I don't watch something online and then ask myself if the music was used with permission and I doubt of anybody else does as well.

I'm not saying you are wrong about anything regarding copyrights. All I'm saying is that what we do doesn't negatively affect the artists ability to make money off of his music. Its like if you take a pen from work and accidentally take it home with you and forget to take it back the next day. You've stolen from your job, but will you get fired for it - will the company go out of business because of it?

DJ's buy music off iTunes, which does not give them the right to play it in public for money, and yet they still do it and nobody ever gets sued for it.

Until somebody gets sued we're all going to just keep on doing it. Trying to convince us not to is like moving a mountain with a snow shovel. You can continue your crusade but it's all falling on deaf ears, my friend.



Philadelphia Wedding Video
The Kenneth Stillman Blog



grinner
User


Sep 22, 2009, 1:09 PM

Post #22 of 38 (1251 views)
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Re: [Kenneth] Web Video Options are Many! [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm saying you are wrong, Kenneth. What you do is illegal, unethical and very uncool.
What do you tell the bride or groom when they ask if it's legal? Do you just lie or do you laugh or what? What do you tell them when they ask you to post it on youtube or facebook and ya can't due to copyright infringement?
It's absolutly crazy for you to suggest this doesn't matter. Of course it does. Do you really think I could get the gigs I do if I had the reputation of being a pirate? I am in no way crusading. I know full well there will always be professionals and hacks in every industry. That's not my beef. It increases my rate. My beef is pirates make it more expensive for me to purchase music. From library tunage to BMI liscensing, it'd all be cheaper if volume were up.
I realize you will keep doing it until ya get caught. Drug dealers do the same thing. It's no defense in doing it.

;)


grinnerhester.com


Brackish
Veteran


Sep 22, 2009, 1:21 PM

Post #23 of 38 (1249 views)
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In Reply To
DJ's buy music off iTunes, which does not give them the right to play it in public for money, and yet they still do it and nobody ever gets sued for it.


I've had venues tell me that they pay an annual fee which covers
the DJ playing copyrighted music in their venue.



------------------------------------------------------------


grinner
User


Sep 22, 2009, 1:37 PM

Post #24 of 38 (1244 views)
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Re: [Brackish] Web Video Options are Many! [In reply to] Can't Post

they'll almost always have a BMI/ASCAP sticker on the door.

;)


grinnerhester.com


Kenneth
Veteran


Sep 22, 2009, 4:31 PM

Post #25 of 38 (1239 views)
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In Reply To
I'm saying you are wrong, Kenneth. What you do is illegal, unethical and very uncool.
What do you tell the bride or groom when they ask if it's legal?


Brides don't ask and brides don't care. They want music they they connect with - plain and simple.

It's easy to come in here and call one little videographer from Philadelphia a thief. Why don't you post this in the members section and call every other videographer a thief? The Moses', Von Lankens, Jason Magbanua, Dave Williams, Ray Roman, Elysium Productions, Chris Jones, Still Motion, Loyd Calomay, Ryan Koral, would probably all be interested in hearing that you think that what they do is uncool.

I can tell you don't do wedding videos for a living. If you did you would know that using copyrighted music is just a necessary evil. You can accept it and move on or just go around calling everybody in this industry a thief. But you won't make a lot of friends doing that. Wink



Philadelphia Wedding Video
The Kenneth Stillman Blog


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