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Home: Video University Forums: Sony DV and DVCAM Forum:
Hiss

 

 


X-George
Imported Account

Mar 19, 2001, 7:20 PM

Post #1 of 12 (1195 views)
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Hiss Can't Post

So what is happening. Does every 2k has the hiss problem or not?
Because mine is new and has it. Drop any oppinions.


X-John_Beale
Imported Account

Mar 20, 2001, 3:09 AM

Post #2 of 12 (1196 views)
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Re: Hiss Can't Post

: So what is happening. Does every 2k has the hiss problem or not?
: Because mine is new and has it. Drop any oppinions.
I got my VX2000 in November 2000. "Hiss problem" is kind of a subjective thing: I like to get specific. I measured the noise floor of its mic input at -67 dB (auto) and -62 dB (manual). That is to say, the full-bandwidth total recorded noise power relative to 0 dB digital full-scale, with an external mic-level source connected but with no signal* present. This was with mic-level input; I did not test the input in the "line level" setting, or the internal mic. The bandwidth of my VX2000 mic input is 40 Hz...20 kHz at the -3 dB points, and 30 Hz...21 kHz at -6 dB. For comparison, noise on the mic input of my Canon GL1 is 1 dB worse than the VX2k in auto mode.
I guess my question is, what dBfs noise floor constitutes a "hiss problem" ?
* "no signal" = less than -110 dBfs.


X-andre
Imported Account

Mar 20, 2001, 5:40 AM

Post #3 of 12 (1196 views)
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Re: Hiss [In reply to] Can't Post

: : So what is happening. Does every 2k has the hiss problem or not?
: : Because mine is new and has it. Drop any oppinions.
: I got my VX2000 in November 2000. "Hiss problem" is kind of a subjective thing: I like to get specific. I measured the noise floor of its mic input at -67 dB (auto) and -62 dB (manual). That is to say, the full-bandwidth total recorded noise power relative to 0 dB digital full-scale, with an external mic-level source connected but with no signal* present. This was with mic-level input; I did not test the input in the "line level" setting, or the internal mic. The bandwidth of my VX2000 mic input is 40 Hz...20 kHz at the -3 dB points, and 30 Hz...21 kHz at -6 dB. For comparison, noise on the mic input of my Canon GL1 is 1 dB worse than the VX2k in auto mode.
: I guess my question is, what dBfs noise floor constitutes a "hiss problem" ?
: * "no signal" = less than -110 dBfs.
A dynamic range of 60 to 70 db is not bad, but as far as I can understand the Hiss issue mentioned in this forum, I think the problem relates to the spectral and time domain pattern of the noise. In cases where the noise is not random or weighted in a predictable way (DbA...) it is often difficult to relate noise power measurements to the perception levels. Maybe the spectral figure would reveal more. Also tertsband based noise power measurement would tell more. I am not a VX2000 owner so I can unfortunately only give some suggestions.
Andre


X-Hank
Imported Account

Mar 20, 2001, 5:28 PM

Post #4 of 12 (1195 views)
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A simple answer [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't know about you but I feel that sometimes people here just like to see their own typing. The last two answers sound like some other language.
I bought mine sometime in Oct 2000. I don't have a hissing problem. It would be nice to see how many people have this problem (by a show of hands).
Simply put, if you hear it you have it.
This isn't a relative thing that needs to be measured by db levels. Is it clear or not? Do you hear hissing or don't you?
I'm sure George can tell the difference between bad sound and clear sound.
For those of you that insist on showing some kind of technical ability in audio language fine, but take some extra time to explain to the rest of us otherwise you are talking to yourselves.
: So what is happening. Does every 2k has the hiss problem or not?
: Because mine is new and has it. Drop any oppinions.


X-Patrick
Imported Account

Mar 20, 2001, 5:46 PM

Post #5 of 12 (1195 views)
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Re: A simple answer [In reply to] Can't Post

: I don't know about you but I feel that sometimes people here just like to see their own typing. The last two answers sound like some other language.
Well someone somewhere designs these things, and a few people do actually understand this stuff! Amazes me all the time the things I don't know.
In any event, there's hiss in *everything* if you turn up the input or output volume enough. It's either coming from the input stage or the output stage, or both.
John, how do you measure the bandwidth of only the mic input without involving the output amplifier?


X-John_Beale
Imported Account

Mar 21, 2001, 7:47 PM

Post #6 of 12 (1196 views)
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Re: A simple answer [In reply to] Can't Post

: : I don't know about you but I feel that sometimes people here just like to see their own typing. The last two answers sound like some other language.
: Well someone somewhere designs these things, and a few people do actually understand this stuff! Amazes me all the time the things I don't know.
: In any event, there's hiss in *everything* if you turn up the input or output volume enough. It's either coming from the input stage or the output stage, or both.
: John, how do you measure the bandwidth of only the mic input without involving the output amplifier?
well... the VX2000 is a digital audio recorder, as well as a digital video recorder, and once a signal is digital you can easily make measurements given the right software. I captured the digital audio from firewire using the DVRaptor audio utility, and examined the output spectrum, noise power etc. in Cool Edit 2000 (www.syntrillium.com)
The noise spectrum is fairly flat, which perceptually sounds like a hiss (if you turn up the volume). It has a peak at the 15.7 kHz scan frequency but that is beyond the limit of my personal hearing.
The dBa-weighted noise is about 4 dB less than the total power I reported (as I recall- don't have my notes handy).
I measured bandwidth by putting in a flat broadband white noise and looking at the captured audio spectrum. I won't bore you with the details of my flat white source but according to my measurements it is accurately flat to beyond the bandwidth of the VX2000.


X-John_Beale
Imported Account

Mar 21, 2001, 8:55 PM

Post #7 of 12 (1196 views)
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VX2k hiss: finding the answers [In reply to] Can't Post

: I bought mine sometime in Oct 2000. I don't have a hissing problem. It would be nice to see how many people have this problem (by a show of hands).
I don't hear a hiss from my VX2000 (purchased Nov. '00) on material of "normal" loudness, during normal level playback on my TV speakers. But I do notice a hiss through headphones on my soundcard output, listening to VX2k playback in my NLE system. On clean CD soundtracks and other known good sources there is no perceptible hiss so it isn't the soundcard or other items in the audio chain; it must be from the camera.
If 50% of VX2k owners report a hiss, then clearly 50% of the owners of this camera have a problem... but I guess I'm trying to answer a different question: is this because half the cameras are bad, or is it actually all the cameras are bad and half the camera owners have better hearing then the rest, or are trying to record fainter sources and playing back at higher levels? The best way I can think to answer this question is by measuring camera noise in dB levels, independent of the operator's ears.
Everyone's ears keep changing. As people get older, high-frequency hearing loss increases, varying of course between individuals. For example, it used to be that the TV horizontal retrace (flyback) frequency near 15 kHz, which can be very loud from some TV sets, would bother me. It doesn't anymore- not because they've made all the sets quiet now, but because my hearing now falls off sharply above 13 kHz.
"Hiss" describes a broadband noise. Pure white noise, with a completely flat spectrum, sounds like a hiss. The more high-frequency hearing loss you have, the less loud a given level of "hiss" will seem to you, because there will be less of that broad spectrum that you can actually hear. So, I'm sure I'll be able to look forward to being even less bothered by hiss in the future :-/
If you have a broadband noise floor of -65 dB I'd say it is a reasonable but not great audio system. If I turn up the gain to hear a quiet passage, I will hear the hiss (of course- turn up the gain enough and you'll hear hiss on any system). If you have a noise floor of -92 dB you have an outstanding audio system. I would have to turn up the gain to a truly unreasonable level to hear hiss. My Turtle Beach Fiji soundcard actually achieves that level. None of my MiniDV cameras do, unfortunately.


X-George
Imported Account

Mar 23, 2001, 8:37 AM

Post #8 of 12 (1195 views)
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Re: Hiss [In reply to] Can't Post

After the latest tests i made i say that vx-2000 manual audio when using external -even cheap- microphone is excellent!!!
I tried some cheap label old microphone i was using when i was working on tv -some 4 years before- and the miracle was there.
Manuall mode is greater far than auto, no hiss no nothing.
Great controll and the peak red light is very usefull.
Never jugde the sound from on camera microphone.
I used manual with on camera mic and introduced a lot of noise (hiss)
on the output from headphones and the comp speakers.
I was listening to people's gossip without having my own tests even if i had the experience.
Not listen to anyone just listen with an external mike.
Thanks to anyone helped here.
George



X-Kevin_Foy
Imported Account

Mar 24, 2001, 4:54 AM

Post #9 of 12 (1195 views)
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Re: A simple answer / problem confirmed [In reply to] Can't Post

I read on a website somewhere that Sony has admited to the hissing with the VX2K when using an external mic in manual mode. This problem makes manual mode simply not usable. There is some strange technical explanation for this, which I didn't understand. I believe Sony has corrected this fault , free of charge, for owners in the USA, but there still seems to be some dispute in other areas about getting this service done.
CONTACT SONY!!


X-Kevin_Foy
Imported Account

Mar 24, 2001, 5:03 AM

Post #10 of 12 (1195 views)
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Re: Hiss / Problem confirmed [In reply to] Can't Post

I read on a website somewhere that Sony has admited to the hissing with the VX2K when using an external mic in manual mode. This problem makes manual mode simply not usable. There is some strange technical explanation for this, which I didn't understand. I believe Sony has corrected this fault , free of charge, for owners in the USA, but there still seems to be some dispute in other areas about getting this service done.
CONTACT SONY!!


X-George
Imported Account

Mar 24, 2001, 1:05 PM

Post #11 of 12 (1195 views)
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Re: A simple answer [In reply to] Can't Post

We have to finish this now.
I have a hiss when i listen through headphones with on board
mic but NOT when i use an external mike.
I belive now that i have tested my VX-2K very much that is the on
board mike that makes the problem if there is any.
When i use an external mike the sound is PERFECT.
Manual mode is even better using an external mic.
Try it and you will see by yourself.
BUT a really good mic not anything cheap.
P.S. Tell me crazy or whatever you want but as far as i have seen there will not be a better machine in the future.
The image is OUTSTANDING it outperforms my old BETA SP for fun.
The low light ability is -MY GOD- nearly not true.
It can't be happening. The image remains without grain in open +18 db!


X-Former_Sony_customer
Imported Account

Apr 3, 2001, 9:28 AM

Post #12 of 12 (1195 views)
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Re: Hiss / Problem confirmed [In reply to] Can't Post

Checkout http://www.glensound.co.uk/GSTN1.htm