Video University: Video University Forums: Sony DV and DVCAM Forum: another pd170 question.....

VideoUniversity.com
Home	Free Library	Store
Free Catalog Please support VU by making your B&H purchases and links through this B&H ad. Doesn't cost a penny more.

See The New VU Postcard Catalog

To post in the forums see the Forum Guidelines.

Join or Renew Today.
New Benefits for all VU Members

Forum Guidelines and FAQ
Main Index	Search Posts
Who's Online	Log In

Home: Video University Forums: Sony DV and DVCAM Forum:
another pd170 question.....

velma
Veteran

Nov 19, 2006, 9:25 AM

Post #1 of 23 (5168 views)
Shortcut

another pd170 question.....	Can't Post

I had only used a pd170 (actually 150) once before (a rental). The video part of it seemed exactly like my vx2000s, except for the separate iris and gain, which I really like.

But when I used my new 170 last night, during the prep time, the white balance kept surging or shifting. This only happened in that one room where the girls where getting ready. It would shift from coolor to warmer. It didn't matter if I put it on manual or auto white balance. I tried them both. I opened up the gain....still did it.

It never would give me a good color in that room. It was either very warm and then would shift to cooler....then back to warmer. There was nothing different or special about the lighting in that room. It was a very modern, well lit room. Flouresent lights, a little light coming in from the big windows through the partially closed blinds. Light yellow walls and a pukey looking yellowish wall paper under the chair rail.

I can fix it in post, but I would love to know what caused it.

Is there some kind of difference between the white balance on the 170 and the vx2000? Anybody ever had this happen before?

thanks....velma
-------------------
Don't you remember "Velma in Scooby Doo?"
Next to Scarlett O'Hara, Velma is my #1 hero!

Brackish
Veteran

Nov 19, 2006, 9:56 AM

Post #2 of 23 (5161 views)
Shortcut

Post deleted by Brackish [In reply to]

velma
Veteran

Nov 19, 2006, 10:23 AM

Post #3 of 23 (5153 views)
Shortcut

Re: [Brackish] another pd170 question..... [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

Is there some kind of difference between the white balance on the 170 and the vx2000?

Not that I know of Vel. Did you have your Custom Presets
set the same?

No. I actually forgot to set the custom presets yesterday. I thought about that after I got home last night. Would having the custom presets still on factor settings cause a shift like that?
-------------------
Don't you remember "Velma in Scooby Doo?"
Next to Scarlett O'Hara, Velma is my #1 hero!

Brackish
Veteran

Nov 19, 2006, 11:37 AM

Post #4 of 23 (5124 views)
Shortcut

Post deleted by Brackish [In reply to]

MLiebergot
Veteran

Nov 19, 2006, 12:44 PM

Post #5 of 23 (5113 views)
Shortcut

Re: [velma] another pd170 question..... [In reply to]	Can't Post

Velma, I had the same problem last weekend with my VX, while I was filming bridal prep in an old scholhouse that had florecent overhead lighting and open windows (about 3pm).
I manually set my white balance, but the color kept shifting from warmer to cooler and I could not get the white balance right no matter what I tried (manual or white balance presets).

I only had this problem during bridal prep, and I am certain that it had to do with the ceiling lights and the open windows. These florecent bulbs that are used in the ceiling are known to fluctuate in color.

Michael

Cameras: I do use them.
Audio: Yes, it does come with audio if you like.
Software: I am learning...
Support: I need all that i can get.
Computer: MAC BABY!

(This post was edited by MLiebergot on Nov 19, 2006, 12:46 PM)

Bob A
Veteran

Nov 19, 2006, 2:45 PM

Post #6 of 23 (5100 views)
Shortcut

Re: [MLiebergot] another pd170 question..... [In reply to]	Can't Post

I suspect the the white balance is not shifting in the cam at all. It is just as your aim changes, the major light falling on the subject changs fron daylight to overhead light causing the color shift. The cam is doing exactly what you asked it to do by holding its white ballance to just what you asked it to. Holding the white bal fixed and changing the light source will result in the seeming change in color in the picture. The better system is to leave the white bal on 'auto' but that will help but not solve the problem completely as the white bal is intentionally slow to react. If you do not have time to re-white bal each time the cam moves you are kinda screwed and have to fix it later.

velma
Veteran

Nov 19, 2006, 9:06 PM

Post #7 of 23 (5069 views)
Shortcut

Re: [Brackish] another pd170 question..... [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

One thing that you should know is they changed the
LCD screens between the models.
The VX screen is more orange and saturated. The
PD screen has more of a blue-purple tint -- maybe
this difference contributed to the LCD looking
different at your prep.

That could be it. But still wouldn't explain the shifting of a stationary shot. If I get industrious, I'll post a clip of what I'm talking about.

Thanks!
-------------------
Don't you remember "Velma in Scooby Doo?"
Next to Scarlett O'Hara, Velma is my #1 hero!

velma
Veteran

Nov 19, 2006, 9:11 PM

Post #8 of 23 (5068 views)
Shortcut

Re: [MLiebergot] another pd170 question..... [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

The only thing is that I've shot in rooms exactly like this one. As a matter of fact, I've shot in the room right next door to this one which is identical. And I've never had this problem. The windows weren't a factor. They had blinds up over them and only barely, barely opened. (couldn't be opened too much. girls getting dressed and the windows were on the front of the hotel, first floor)

Like I said in Brackish's post, I'll try to post a clip of what I'm talking about and you can see if it was the same as your problem.

THanks...velma
-------------------
Don't you remember "Velma in Scooby Doo?"
Next to Scarlett O'Hara, Velma is my #1 hero!

velma
Veteran

Nov 19, 2006, 9:13 PM

Post #9 of 23 (5067 views)
Shortcut

Re: [Bob A] another pd170 question..... [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

But it was also happening on stationary shots. When I would hold the camera steady....no movement, no zoom, nothing....the white balance kept changing on its own. Also, the lighting was the same all over the room. The blinds were closed....or just barely, barely cracked with sunlight going straight down on the floor. The girls were way over on the other side of the room.
-------------------
Don't you remember "Velma in Scooby Doo?"
Next to Scarlett O'Hara, Velma is my #1 hero!

Bob A
Veteran

Nov 19, 2006, 9:30 PM

Post #10 of 23 (5063 views)
Shortcut

Re: [velma] another pd170 question..... [In reply to]	Can't Post

That does not sound good. A clip would help.

velma
Veteran

Nov 27, 2006, 6:33 AM

Post #11 of 23 (4898 views)
Shortcut

Re: [Bob A] another pd170 question..... [In reply to]	Can't Post

Okay, here's a clip. They were over on the other side of the room away from the window. I don't remember if my cam was on auto or manual WB, but it didn't matter. It was like this for either setting. This was not an old building with old lights. It was a very modern, upscale facility with plenty of good, flourescent lighting. I've shot tons of footage in rooms just like this one. As a matter of fact, I've shot footage in the room right next door to this one....same identical room.

What do you think?

crummy WB clip

thanks for the help....velma
-------------------
Don't you remember "Velma in Scooby Doo?"
Next to Scarlett O'Hara, Velma is my #1 hero!

Postal Boy
Veteran

Nov 27, 2006, 2:52 PM

Post #12 of 23 (4880 views)
Shortcut

Re: [velma] another pd170 question..... [In reply to]	Can't Post

Is it still doing it? That looks pretty nasty. Almost like the camera couldn't lock it down. However, it does seem like a steady oscillation, yes? Consistent timing between color swings? I have heard of getting out of sync with the lights, and having that change colors, but I don't know if this fits the description of the problem. You didn't, by any chance, change your frame-rate during the sequence did you?

-Postal

Vidiot Tech
Enthusiast

Nov 27, 2006, 5:18 PM

Post #13 of 23 (4869 views)
Shortcut

Re: [Postal Boy] another pd170 question..... [In reply to]	Can't Post

I've seen similar swings on a JVC GY-DV5000, but not as rapid as that.

Read on a JVC forum that the problem was shutter speeds other than 60 that would cause such swings. I always shot at 60 after that.

Steve Godsey, CLVS

Silence is golden. Duct tape is silver.

RustyB
Veteran

Nov 27, 2006, 5:48 PM

Post #14 of 23 (4868 views)
Shortcut

Re: [Vidiot Tech] another pd170 question..... [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

I couldn't get the clip to load, but if the shutter speed isn't set to manual, it could very well be fluctuating and changing the white balance as it lets more or less light in. If the camera doesn't agree with your aperture/gain settings, it will try to compensate by going in the wrong direction with the shutter, and effect the white balance as a result.

Leaving the shutter in auto can really screw with you, but don't limit yourself by just setting it at 60 and forgetting about it. You can crank it WAY down in dark reception halls and be amazed at how much light it well let it. It might look bad on the LCD, but it won't be so bad on the actual video. And outside on Sunny days, you can crank it up for some really sharp looking video.

60 seems to work about right for the average decently lit church, but either way, always check the white balance when making changes to the shutter speed.

savvy houston bride
get a video....not an excuse

velma
Veteran

Nov 27, 2006, 9:28 PM

Post #15 of 23 (4861 views)
Shortcut

Re: [Postal Boy] another pd170 question..... [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

-------------------
Don't you remember "Velma in Scooby Doo?"
Next to Scarlett O'Hara, Velma is my #1 hero!

velma
Veteran

Nov 27, 2006, 9:33 PM

Post #16 of 23 (4859 views)
Shortcut

Re: [Vidiot Tech] another pd170 question..... [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

I was on 60. Unsure

-------------------
Don't you remember "Velma in Scooby Doo?"
Next to Scarlett O'Hara, Velma is my #1 hero!

velma
Veteran

Nov 27, 2006, 9:49 PM

Post #17 of 23 (4856 views)
Shortcut

Re: [RustyB] another pd170 question..... [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

60 seems to work about right for the average decently lit church, but either way, always check the white balance when making changes to the shutter speed.

I left it on 60. That's what I usually do when it is a normal (good) lighting situation. I've lowered it a notch when I'm in a really bad lighting situation. Never raised it, though. Hmmmm.......might try that.
-------------------
Don't you remember "Velma in Scooby Doo?"
Next to Scarlett O'Hara, Velma is my #1 hero!

MLiebergot
Veteran

Nov 27, 2006, 10:27 PM

Post #18 of 23 (4851 views)
Shortcut

Re: [velma] another pd170 question..... [In reply to]	Can't Post

Velma, looking at the clip, my VX2100 did the same thing a few weeks ago.
I was set to 60 and I tried manual white balance as well as auto white balance to no avail.
the room was poorly lit (old school house across from the church, where the bride was getting ready) with florecent overhead lights, and some outside light pouring in from the side windows.

I also only had this problem in this room, and had no problems with this camera the whole day.

I chalked it up to poor overhead bulbs and outside light causing the white balance sensors to malfunction.

Michael

Cameras: I do use them.
Audio: Yes, it does come with audio if you like.
Software: I am learning...
Support: I need all that i can get.
Computer: MAC BABY!

Vidiot Tech
Enthusiast

Nov 27, 2006, 10:47 PM

Post #19 of 23 (4849 views)
Shortcut

Re: [MLiebergot] another pd170 question..... [In reply to]	Can't Post

Yeah, I'd blame the florecent lights too. Have you ever seen a florecent light with a wave of light traveling from one end to the other? Got to be changing color temp like mad...

Steve Godsey, CLVS

Silence is golden. Duct tape is silver.

velma
Veteran

Nov 27, 2006, 10:52 PM

Post #20 of 23 (4848 views)
Shortcut

Re: [Vidiot Tech] another pd170 question..... [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

Yeah, I'd blame the florecent lights too. Have you ever seen a florecent light with a wave of light traveling from one end to the other? Got to be changing color temp like mad...

You're probably right.If it was a true malfunction, it would have done it all day. But I still wonder why it never did it with my vx2000 in the room right next door....same size, same lighting, same color walls, identical in every way. But I've come to realize there will always be things that I just do not understand! Unsure

-------------------
Don't you remember "Velma in Scooby Doo?"
Next to Scarlett O'Hara, Velma is my #1 hero!

Brackish
Veteran

Nov 28, 2006, 4:59 AM

Post #21 of 23 (4837 views)
Shortcut

Post deleted by Brackish [In reply to]

velma
Veteran

Nov 28, 2006, 7:32 AM

Post #22 of 23 (4830 views)
Shortcut

Re: [Brackish] another pd170 question..... [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

I've never seen that phenomenon before. Only thing that came
to my mind is that the auto white balance was fluctuating
because of being confused by the variety of types of
light. But you said it did it in manual white balance too
so ...
You sure you were in manual? That info (auto or manual)
is available to you if you press the correct button to display it
while the cam is playing back the tape.

I'm absolutely POSITIVE it did it in both manual and auto. More than once, I set the cam down on the table and pointed it towards someone and toggled back and forth several times between auto and manual. It did it no matter what the setting was. I couldn't believe it was doing it in manual. THat's why I switched it back and forth several times. I kept thinking, "I've got to be doing something wrong."
-------------------
Don't you remember "Velma in Scooby Doo?"
Next to Scarlett O'Hara, Velma is my #1 hero!

Postal Boy
Veteran

Nov 28, 2006, 12:38 PM

Post #23 of 23 (4810 views)
Shortcut

Re: [velma] another pd170 question..... [In reply to]	Can't Post

One thing to remember...even though the lighting might have been the same in both rooms, flourescent lights are NEVER the same...and they oscillate at about 60 hz, which OUR eyes can't see, but a camera can. Even with manual white balance, if the light is "flickering" at a slightly odd rate your camera would be gathering different light amounts/qualities with each frame grab (in other words, you could be catching the light "lighting up" or "dimming" with each cycle on a rotating basis). This could cause the problem, similar to scan lines on a TV...We don't see them, but the camera can/does depending on timing issues.

I would guess that if you raised your shutter speed slightly, or lowered it slightly, the problem would have vanished.

-Postal