VideoUniversity.com
Home Free Library Store
Free Catalog

Please support VU by making your B&H purchases and links through this B&H ad. Doesn't cost a penny more. <a href="http://www.bhphotovideo.com?BI=603&KBID=1017"><IMG src="/images/flash_ads/videoUniv2_revised_conv.jpg" alt="B&H Photo" width="260" height="70"></a>
Video University Sponsor
Advertisement

See The New VU Postcard Catalog

To post in the forums see the Forum Guidelines.

Join or Renew Today.
New Benefits for all VU Members
Forum Guidelines and FAQ
Main Index Search Posts
Who's Online Log In


Home: Video University Forums: Teaching Video Production:
"Burning" DVD duplications

 

 


Phil Harris
Novice

Nov 19, 2004, 11:56 AM

Post #1 of 10 (3855 views)
Shortcut
"Burning" DVD duplications Can't Post

In order to keep my Television Prouduction program equiped with state-of-the-art equipment, we have created a video production company with my students as employees. We are hired by the school system and the public to produce a variety of programming for private viewing as well as cablecasting. The money we earn, and it is substantial, is returned to the classroom and is used to purchase the professional level gear I need to teach a professional level training program in Television Production.

The release format for our product has always been VHS in the past. However, I am increasingly getting requests for releases in DVD format. I have resisted. I have spoken with DVD duplication vendors at both the Government Video Expo in Washington, DC as well as at NAB and Have not received encouraging responses.

What follows is a compilation of comments I've gleaned from conversations with vendors and articles on this subject. I'd like to open a serious discussion on this forum on the topic of the feasability of DVD duplication. Anyone interested in this subject is asked to respond to this posting with your reaction to the below comments.

You see, the DVD’s you get at Blockbuster are made thru a process called DVD “MOLDING”. This is a process whose patents are totally locked up by the Hollywood industry and some few replicators here and there. What consumers are familiar with are the DVD “burners” found in nearly every computer sold today. The problem with burners is that the product it creates is not a true DVD in the Hollywood sense of the word. And most importantly, the product of any DVD burner today will only play on approximately 80% of the DVD players in the country. The rest of the players are older and use a totally different technology that is incompatible with the burned DVD’s of today. The only way to make a DVD of a video program at this time that is guaranteed to play on anyone’s DVD player in their living room is to give a digital master of that program to a replicator. Most replicators charge a set-up fee of between 5 and 7 THOUSAND dollars to digitize the program. Then they make the DVD’s in minimum lots of 1,000 DVD’s for about $4 per DVD. That means on the conservative end, you’d need:

$5,000 set up fee
$4,000 fee for 1,000 minimum DVD’s at $4.00 each
$9,000 total needed even if you only want 50 DVD’s.

Just to break even, I’d have to charge $180.00 each for the DVD’s

THAT’s why I don’t do DVD’s. J

See below for more info from an article copied from a trade magazine:

“If I can get a DVD movie from Blockbuster that plays on my DVD Player in my living room, why can't you use a DVD burner to make one?"

Simply put, the patents on the equipment and the format (called DVD-RAM) used in creating true Hollywood-style DVD’s have all been locked up by the Entertainment Industry. The format of the Hollywood movies DVD’s is such that those DVD’s will play on virtually all DVD players available. The format for DVD “burning” most consumers have on their home computers is completely different and results in DVD’s which will only play in about 80% of the players available.

It is possible to take master tapes and send them to a DVD replicator who can author the DVD’s in DVD-RAM format so they will play in every DVD player available. However, there is a huge (four figures) setup fee charged by the replicator. That cost will have to be passed onto the consumer and the relatively small number of DVD’s ordered by customers would result in a per DVD cost that would be astronomical!

At this time it is not possible to create a DVD using industrial level DVD burners that will play back in all DVD players in customer’s living rooms. Desktop DVD burners use DVD-R General disks and depending upon what brand of disk you use, what data-rate is used for encoding the video and the brand and model of players, DVD-R General disks will, on average, play in somewhere between 50 and 80 percent of the DVD players out there. If you wanted to make mass copies that work in all types of players, you would burn your disk and then take it to a professional replicator (mentioned above) who would use it as a master for making copies. There are other types of recordable disks, but any of the ones that are compatible with desktop DVD players will be even less compatible than DVD-R General disks.

To create a DVD we would first have to engage in the far greater than real-time upload (up to 14 hours) and digitization of a 2 hour show and then you have to consider the time it would take to burn the one DVD they want. This doesn't even take into account the amount of hard drive space that would have to be freed up to upload a long program on the computer. Finally, any consumer who compares the quality of picture of a DVD made on an industrial burner to the quality of picture of a DVD made on Hollywood movie type DVD’s will notice a definitely lower quality picture.

The bottom line: there for sure is no money to be made in simply transferring video to DVD, unless you find that rare customer who wants the highest archival quality on a DVD and is ready to pay for you to use a high-quality two-pass variable bit-rate encoder to convert the video to MPEG-2 (which takes anywhere from 10 to 14 times real-time) or unless you have a customer who is ordering thousands of copies allowing you to reduce the cost per DVD due to quantity.

Phil.L.Harris@fcps.edu
Phil Harris
Television Production Instructor
Fairfax Academy
3500 Old Lee Hwy.
Fairfax, VA 22030
703-219-2249


DVXGalt
Veteran


Nov 19, 2004, 12:32 PM

Post #2 of 10 (3837 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Phil Harris] "Burning" DVD duplications [In reply to] Can't Post

I suggest you do a search over in the Events & Wedding forum. There are several active threads concerning different aspects of DVD production and duplication. Your post has good (old) facts and lousy (lazy) opinions. Making your first DVD can be a challenge, but once you get your hardware/software/media formula you can make DVD's that MOST people can watch. The 80% number was right a few years back, but every new DVD player sold increases that number, as does every old one that breaks. Start with a search of the events forum, but here is some stuff I have learned:

http://www.venicedv.com/dvdwarnings.htm
http://www.bobcosta.com/makingDVDs.htm
http://www.dvddemystified.com/


Jeff Goldstein
Novice

Nov 20, 2004, 11:02 AM

Post #3 of 10 (3819 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Phil Harris] "Burning" DVD duplications [In reply to] Can't Post

Phil,

Have you thought of giving them a compatible DVD player along with the duplicated copy of your DVD? Since the cost of DVD players is below a hundred dollars you might be able to incorporate this into your fee.

Regards,
Jeff


ppatton
User

Nov 22, 2004, 8:38 AM

Post #4 of 10 (3804 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Phil Harris] "Burning" DVD duplications [In reply to] Can't Post

There are also DVD recorders that can take input from a tape and output a dvd in near real time. No Fancy splash page and limited menues. But for quick conversions thay are great. Then you can rip these with a dvd ripper and reproduce them from computer. Yes, you will have comptibility issues, from time to time. Run some tests, to see what kind of compatibility you find with what you are doing. Mine right now is at 90+%.

paul


garycox
User

Nov 22, 2004, 5:52 PM

Post #5 of 10 (3795 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Phil Harris] "Burning" DVD duplications [In reply to] Can't Post

DVD burning is going through some of the same problems that CD burning when through when it first came out. I often had trouble reading burnt CD's in other computers (audio and data). Now days you see very little problems with burnt CD's.

I read an article a while back which indicated brand DVD's had some to do with it. Maxell and Apple brand DVD's were at the top of the list as for compatibility but none were 100%.

In my experience, it seems to have some to do with the brand burner in relation to DVD brand along with the program burning them. I found Maxell -R DVD's have worked really well with my Pioneer DVD burners. Out of 200 I think I had 1 with a problem. I prefer DVD -R but some say +R's are better, it depends on who you talk to.

This past summer I went to a show in Branson, MO and they produced a DVD of the show live. You could pick it up after the show. They had a rack of DVD burners that they burnt onto. Another show was still recording to decks of VHS VCR's although they were going to convert to DVD.

I too hate the render time in the computer and the hard drive space it takes up. I purchased a standalone Panasonic DVD burner that I use for quick projects. It doesn't have a fancy menu like a computer generated DVD but the record time is just a few minutes beyond the actual recording. So for 1hr 30 minutes it takes about 1hr 34 minutes to produce the DVD!

We are really being forced to DVD as the quality is so far superior to VHS no one wants VHS anymore.

Should I run into someone who has a problem playing my DVD I'll try re-burning it for them at 1X speed hoping the slower speed may make for a better burn although I know the actual compression will remain the same. I may also try a different brand DVD for that person. Still you may find some that you just can't get the DVD to play at all no matter what you do.

It's typical of the technology industry now days. If something works 85% of the time, they release it!

... Gary


Phil Harris
Novice

Nov 22, 2004, 9:15 PM

Post #6 of 10 (3780 views)
Shortcut
Re: [garycox] "Burning" DVD duplications [In reply to] Can't Post

Gary,

I know what you mean. We acquire all our footage on DVCPRO so my masters are quite good. We typically will shoot an elementary school program and have 40 or more parents want to buy a copy. I've looked into the feasability of getting a standalone burner that can burn an entire stack of DVDs over night. That's cool. Then I would deliver the DVDs to the school and the parents woudl pick up the copies. DVCPRO tape is pretty expensive and can be reused well over 80 times with out artifacts. So after making the dubs, I would return the master tape to stock to be reused.

The problem is with the parent who waits to view his little darling's DVD until Christmas when all the relatives are over to see it as well. 4 months have passed since the DVD was burned. The master has been recycled and this guy would call me up complaining that his DVD didn't work. Sure, I could give him his money back but I sure couldn't remaike the DVD if the master is gone. I guess I could have him track down another DVD and I could copy that but who needs that hassle?

At least with VHS everyone can play it. ARG!!!
Phil Harris
Television Production Instructor
Fairfax Academy
3500 Old Lee Hwy.
Fairfax, VA 22030
703-219-2249


DVXGalt
Veteran


Nov 22, 2004, 9:54 PM

Post #7 of 10 (3782 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Phil Harris] "Burning" DVD duplications [In reply to] Can't Post

Phil,

It may be that the answer is to make a DV tape of your final project. While this year DV/SVHS combos are very cheap and plentiful, I expect soom that a DV/DVD player/copier will show up that would solve the problem of "add-ons" later. But fwiw, I burn every project onto a DV tape for archive. If I keep the DVD project files around (which are pretty tiny) I should be able to make more DVDs later without too much trouble and still retain my chapter marks, etc. . Reload the master DV, attach it to the DVD project and reburn it on different media.

I think if you don't move to DVD you are making your clients and students suffer. Let them experience "not ready for prime time" technology, but it is not as scary as you think (or as I thought until I got it working).

Good Luck.


garycox
User

Nov 23, 2004, 9:51 AM

Post #8 of 10 (3764 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Phil Harris] "Burning" DVD duplications [In reply to] Can't Post

Note that many of the standalone DVD burners just burn one DVD unless you get one with a built in hard drive to make duplicates. I have a DVD duplicator ($350) which I put in the master DVD and it copies it. Instead of saving the DVCPRO tape for the master just save yourself a copy of the DVD as they are about $1 a piece. I'll save my masters for a while and after that I only have the edited final version if I need to go back and make a copy.

You could put a note with the DVD's that they are not 100% compatible with all players, please check your DVD as soon as possible for any problems. Alternately give a DVD and VHS copy.

Still no real good solution to a problem "technology" hasn't solved but yet we are being forced into it. I think as manufacturers make better DVD blanks and players become more tolerant as well as the burners become better we'll slowly phase out incompatibilities.

... Gary


Stoney
User


Nov 23, 2004, 11:00 AM

Post #9 of 10 (3758 views)
Shortcut
Re: [garycox] "Burning" DVD duplications [In reply to] Can't Post

Phil,
I work at Wright State University and we have been trying to find an easy way to make VHS or other format to DVDs, that are good quality and not labor intensive. You really have a couple of options:

1. You can digitize and author your DVD on a computer using a program like DVDit. I would recommend it for the ease of use. Once you make a DVD image file, you can then make numerous copies using a burning program like Nero. Nero will even burn to multiple burners installed on a a system. Authoring a DVD is more labor intensive, but it also allows you to better personalize the DVD with a title of the event on the main menu and so on. You can get a multi-format burner so that you can burn both DVD-R and DVD+R. I prefer and have better compatibility with DVD-R.

2. You could get a standalone DVD recorder, record from a tape deck, do limited titling on the menu making one at a time. Most DVD recorders that I have found with either do DVD-R or DVD+R, not both. Now what you can do is make one DVD on the stand alone, then copy the VIDEO_TS file to computer and then burn DVDs from that folder using Nero. You could also invest in a DVD duplicater to automate the process.

3. Either way you decide to do it, you shoudl be able to take that DVD to a local duplicator and get copies made. Not glass masters, but general format copies. I do my daughter's dance recital every year. I edit the video, author a DVD and then take that DVD to my local duplicator, Video Duplication Services. They then make my 100+ copies for me. DVD with basic thermal printing and a nice plastic case costs me about $7.00 a disc. Easier than having to make them 1 at a time.

Hope this gives you some ideas.
Stoney
LE 6.1, DVC-80, GL-1 & TRV900


daremo
User


Nov 28, 2004, 7:34 PM

Post #10 of 10 (3579 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Phil Harris] "Burning" DVD duplications [In reply to] Can't Post

Instead of saving the tape masters, have you thought of just making a backup copy of the dvd that you give to the parents? I would think that would make more sense in the long run if you believe that some parent will need to get another copy later if their first copy doesn't work. Blank dvds are very inexpensive and have at least a 10 year lifespan.

You don't need the tape masters in order to make a dvd, you can do a couple of things if you feel that saving the tape masters is not feasible. 1. output your final project files into mpeg2 format. And store it on dvd in that format. This allows you to be able to do simple edits without having to do a lot of work. 2. recopy a backup copy of the dvd that you give to the client.

A suggestion that probably would really help you out in the long run...if you have a dedicated client base (ie: same parents), have them fill out a simple survey telling you what the model of their dvd player is. Then you just need to check out who has the right dvd player to play the type of dvd's that can be burned.


- Anything that kills you, only makes me stronger.