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Home: Video University Forums: Teaching Video Production:
That live, indoor look....

 

 


Crimsus
Novice

Oct 17, 2004, 10:41 PM

Post #1 of 14 (5350 views)
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That live, indoor look.... Can't Post

Hi, first time here and stuff. I have a question, and hopefully someone can answer it. What filter or method does one use to eliminate that "shot live" look on film? I mean, you know how a TV show that is live looks versus a TV show that isn't live, what do you do to make it not look live.

I'm sorry if this message sounds confusing, but I don't know how to explain it properly yet.

Basically, if I shoot some footage, I don't want the scene to look like it is live, but instead, that softer look.


videobear
Veteran


Oct 18, 2004, 6:04 AM

Post #2 of 14 (5331 views)
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Re: [Crimsus] That live, indoor look.... [In reply to] Can't Post

I think you mean the "film look". Film is a different recording medium than video...it uses the light sensitivity of chemicals in the film emulsion to produce its images, rather than an eletronic process. As a result, it has its own peculiar look (actually many different looks, depending on the film stock used).

The only way to really achieve this look is to shoot on film. But there are many techniques, both for production and post, that can help you get closer to a film look. A search on this topic will give you lots of hits, both here and in other places on the web.

When shooting, learn to light as if you were shooting a movie. This will go a long way to achieving the look of film. You may also want to reduce the sharpness of your image, either with an adjustment to your camera (if it has this feature), or by adding a slight softening filter, such as the Tiffen Black Pro Mist in a low strength.

When editing, you can use color correction tools, as well as a slight blurring technique to come closer to a film look. You can also get commercial products designed especially for this task, such as "Magic Bullet".




Regards,
Doug Graham
Panda Productions


Crimsus
Novice

Oct 18, 2004, 2:34 PM

Post #3 of 14 (5314 views)
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Re: [videobear] That live, indoor look.... [In reply to] Can't Post

Ok, I'm a bit puzzled then. Here's an example: Star Wars Episode II was shot using digital video, not film. In the extras section where they show different bloopers and stuff, it looks live. In the movie though, it doesn't have that look. Both the bloopers and the film were done with digital video, not film based cameras.


videobear
Veteran


Oct 19, 2004, 6:00 AM

Post #4 of 14 (5309 views)
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Re: [Crimsus] That live, indoor look.... [In reply to] Can't Post

The "bloopers and stuff" was probably shot by an inexpensive camcorder, not a $50,000 CineAlta. In addition, that footage was not processed in post, and doesn't have the movie soundtrack to go with it. All that stuff adds up to produce the "film experience".




Regards,
Doug Graham
Panda Productions


Crimsus
Novice

Oct 19, 2004, 4:14 PM

Post #5 of 14 (5297 views)
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Re: [videobear] That live, indoor look.... [In reply to] Can't Post

The bloopers were shot with a Sony MiniDV Handycam. I'm not concerned with the fact there's no soundtrack in the bloopers either. My question still is: How do I create a final version that has the "film look", even though it is shot with a digital vidcam? Is there a specific lens filter available that can do this, or is this something that has to be done while editting on the PC?


Phil Harris
Novice

Oct 19, 2004, 6:53 PM

Post #6 of 14 (5297 views)
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Re: [videobear] That live, indoor look.... [In reply to] Can't Post

Doug,

You never cease to amaze me! You seem to know everything!

Phil Harris
Phil Harris
Television Production Instructor
Fairfax Academy
3500 Old Lee Hwy.
Fairfax, VA 22030
703-219-2249


mjeppsen
Veteran


Oct 20, 2004, 12:44 AM

Post #7 of 14 (5287 views)
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Re: [Crimsus] That live, indoor look.... [In reply to] Can't Post

Crimsus, you might want to scroll up a few posts and re-read what Doug said...I thought he did a good job of summarizing your options.

There is no perfect recipe for creating "film-look".
Proper lighting and good composition while shooting is half the battle. You can use lens filters like Doug already mentioned, I personally have been fairly pleased with my limited experience working with the ProMist line, those filters have a nice warming effect and add a subtle softening which helps hide a little of the "digital look".
In post you can monkey with frame-rate, motion blur, grain, color & contrast, and a million other things to help you fake a "film-look"...it's all perception really. As Doug already so ably mentioned, you can purchase plugins that purport to deliver a film look. FCP users tend to like the plugins by nattress (nattress.com?), Magic Bullet is popular as well.

Google 'film look' and you'll see that this is a popular topic. Interestingly enough, this VU article was at the top of the results. Here's a smattering of similiar links:
http://www.lafcpug.org/feature_video_film.html
http://www.bealecorner.com/trv900/pro-look.html
http://www.newenglandfilm.com/...02march/lighting.htm
http://www.cybercollege.com/filters.htm

For the legally insane, you can even rent an adapter sled manufactured by P+S Technik that allows the use of true 35mm film camera lenses on a digital camera; it includes a spinning (newer versions oscillate) ground glass disc that simulates "grain" on the video. Of course film lenses allow precise manual control as well as incredible depth of field, something that is hard to do with DV cameras.

Matt Jeppsen

Matt Jeppsen
www.FreshDV.com

(This post was edited by mjeppsen on Oct 20, 2004, 12:52 AM)


djtoltz
User

Nov 2, 2004, 7:02 PM

Post #8 of 14 (5039 views)
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Re: [mjeppsen] That live, indoor look.... [In reply to] Can't Post

---
Of course film lenses allow precise manual control as well as incredible depth of field, something that is hard to do with DV cameras.

---

Actually, unless you mean the opposite of what I think you mean, which you might, the small size of the CCD (1/2 inch or less) means the video camera will have much more depth of field, given the same, physical aperature size. The size of a 35mm frame is an advantage if selective focus is your goal. Personally, I like the reduced depth of field for creative filming, because it allows me to use selective focus as a way to guide the viewer through the image. When working with my 1/3" CCD camera, I must zoom in and use large aperature openings to get a shallow depth of field. Often, to achieve the effect I want, I must even get in close to the subject to narrow the depth of field even more.

BTW: this is one of the major selling points of a full frame CCD still camera (35mm equivalent CCD area).

Just to build on what has already been said, film generally has a wider exposure range and better shadow detail. It is generally recorded at 24 frames/second, and it is NOT interlaced. By shooting in progressive frame modes like 24p and 30p, with fairly low contrast lighting, and some work in post, video can have a filmish look, but don't expect miracles. You'll probably want something better than DV's 4:1:1 color sampling if you're looking for "Hollywood" quality.

Keep in mind, when purchasing filters, that they don't work the same on every camera. Your camera's electronics will respond to the filter in a unique way. You'll need to experiment with various filters to find one that gives you the effect you want. Don't ever use a filter without thoroughly testing it, first. (This rule can be ignored with your protective daylight/UV filter).

Another side note: I wrote a UV smoothing filter to average out the color in DV (4:1:1) to smooth out some of the artifacts. It's similar to filters provided by After Effects and Final Cut Pro 4, but it's a Quicktime plugin, so you don't need any expensive tools to use it. In writing the filter and testing it, I realized that you can do whatever you want to your DV to smooth over the artifacts of the 4:1:1 color sampling, but if you render the result back to DV, you'll lose any benefit you may have gained. Therefore, if you wish to push your DV footage into a smoother, more refined look, you'd better plan on rendering your footage in a less compressed format (DVCPRO 50, 4:2:2 at a minimum). You'll find you pay a big price for converting to something with less compression. For true color sampling (4:4:4), you'll have to use about 12MB/second. That not only adds up to a lot of disk space, but it also hurts your playback/preview performance. On the other hand, I've found that many video artifacts are a consequence of compression, and they can be cleaned up, if you're willing to render every single frame of your video and store it all with about 2:1 compression.

There's always a tradeoff.



---
Douglas Toltzman
Hubert, NC


mjeppsen
Veteran


Nov 2, 2004, 9:50 PM

Post #9 of 14 (5035 views)
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Re: [djtoltz] That live, indoor look.... [In reply to] Can't Post

Well spoken...very informative post. Your VU "Novice" title lies. ;-)

Actually, unless you mean the opposite of what I think you mean, which you might, the small size of the CCD (1/2 inch or less) means the video camera will have much more depth of field, given the same, physical aperature size.

What I think I mean that you thought I think I mean is... ;-)
When I used the term "depth of field", I am referring to "seperation" in a composition, i.e. film-like selective focus. So if I understand YOU correctly, I am using the term in the inverse of what it really means? I stand corrected.

When working with my 1/3" CCD camera, I must zoom in and use large aperature openings to get a shallow depth of field. Often, to achieve the effect I want, I must even get in close to the subject to narrow the depth of field even more.

In the past I have used ND filters to allow my TRV-25 iris to open further without blowing out the highlights, therefore increasing the "depth" of the composition. Or, as I now understand, "narrow the depth of field". This is gonna take a while for me to adjust to... ;-)
I'm loving my new VX-2100, the two onboard ND filters are a quick fix for allowing a wider iris and creating selective focus in my shots.

In writing the filter and testing it, I realized that you can do whatever you want to your DV to smooth over the artifacts of the 4:1:1 color sampling, but if you render the result back to DV, you'll lose any benefit you may have gained.

What about rendering straight out to DVD-MPEG? In my workflow I generally avoid rendering to DV like the plague...I go straight to MPEG-2 (99.99% of the time that's my destination media). My titles look like shite if rendered to the DV codec, but MPEG-2 treats them nicely. How would it do with your smoothing filter?

Matt Jeppsen
www.FreshDV.com

(This post was edited by mjeppsen on Nov 2, 2004, 9:53 PM)


djtoltz
User

Nov 3, 2004, 4:56 AM

Post #10 of 14 (5021 views)
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Re: [mjeppsen] That live, indoor look.... [In reply to] Can't Post

MPEG-2 is highly compressed, but it uses a different method of compression. It's rather complicated; saving differences from frame-to-frame in the form of vectors, etc. MPEG-2 should preserve more color quality. It would have to, or it couldn't be used for high quality DVD productions. However, MPEG-2 is not good for editing, since it uses "inter-frame" compression; meaning it takes multiple frames to reconstruct the image, unless you the compressor uses all "I" frames. What I'm trying to say, is that the MPEG-2 format is great for quality delivery, but not great as an interim encoding format. I generally don't go from source to destination without some intermediate steps that must also be rendered and stored. I don't know enough about all of the NLEs to say how they all handle their render files. I know that Adobe Premiere lets you select the format you wish to use for rendering intermediates, and FCP has it's own format. The rest of them are a mystery to me.

I discovered the real limitations of DV 4:1:1 when it was trying to do some chroma-key work with my DV camcorder. I spent days working on my own chroma-keying software, so I could play with several techniques to improve the key. In the end, it came down to smoothing the color information in the U(r) and V(b) channels. However, even after doing that, the color sampling limitations of DV really shine through when chroma-keying. Colors bleed into each other and evil artifacts form around the subject. Cleaning it up isn't impossible, but a higher color sampling rate would be much better.

p.s. I too use ND filters to reduce depth of field (enhance selective focus), but compared to a 35mm camera, you're pretty restricted. When our camcorders have 1.5" CCDs, then I'll be truly happy. :)
---
Douglas Toltzman
Hubert, NC


djtoltz
User

Nov 3, 2004, 7:41 AM

Post #11 of 14 (5003 views)
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Re: [mjeppsen] That live, indoor look.... [In reply to] Can't Post

Just so you get the whole story, and we're all on the same page about what is meant by Depth of Field and what factors affect it, the following web page is one of the best overviews I've found on-line;

http://www.dvinfo.net/articles/optics/dofskinny.php

It discusses the effect of smaller CCDs and such, as you get further down.
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Douglas Toltzman
Hubert, NC


mjeppsen
Veteran


Nov 3, 2004, 7:50 AM

Post #12 of 14 (4997 views)
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Re: [djtoltz] That live, indoor look.... [In reply to] Can't Post

Good link. Thanks for sharing that!

Matt Jeppsen
www.FreshDV.com


igor_b
Novice

Mar 23, 2005, 8:49 AM

Post #13 of 14 (4006 views)
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Re: [djtoltz] That live, indoor look.... [In reply to] Can't Post

Douglas,
I found this post while looking for examples of typical workflow in Adobe. Can you tell a little more details on your workflow process i.e. once the video is captured and edited how do you get to the final DVD (I use Encore). I would appreciate if you can describe which transcode settings you use for the best quality output.

Thanks
Igor Balagula


djtoltz
User

Mar 23, 2005, 10:09 AM

Post #14 of 14 (4001 views)
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Re: [ibalagula] That live, indoor look.... [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm not sure my workflow would be relevant to your setup. I use Premiere 6.5 on a Mac and I keep full quality (DV25 or DV50) versions of most of my edits, actual format depends on source quality. I then use DVD Studio Pro to author and encode DVDs from the sources.

DV25 (4.1.1) should be used for output, only if you aren't adding higher quality material (titles, animations, HQ video, etc.). Compressing to DV25 (standard DV) throws away the red and blue color information on 3 out of 4 pixels. That is where the jagged edges on titles comes from. If you can export direct to MPEG-2, you'll have better results, but exporting will take longer.

I wish I could give you more specific advice, but I'm sure our environments are different enough that it would not be applicable.
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Douglas Toltzman
Hubert, NC