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Home: Video University Forums: Tech Q & A:
Shooting a band's gig

 
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dansen
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Oct 16, 2005, 7:06 AM

Post #1 of 30 (4121 views)
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Shooting a band's gig Can't Post
i've been asked to shoot a gig for a new band in a few weeks. gonna use a 3-chip camera (probably the Sony PD170) and a tripod. SOUND? I want to plug into the mixing desk at the back of the club. how do I do this and what equipment do I need?

I don't need any microphones, right? Just a DAT recorder or something...or maybe an MP3 hooked up to the sound board/mixer. Has anyone any ideas, advice, or have you ever shot a similar gig before. Any help/advice would be appreciated. Thanks.


ppatton
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Oct 16, 2005, 9:29 AM

Post #2 of 30 (4106 views)
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Re: [dansen] Shooting a band's gig [In reply to] Can't Post
it will depend on what is being sent through the house board. a lot of times only vocals are sent to the board no instruments, as they have their own amps. depending on the size of the venue the drums may not be miced at all. It may be necessary for you to have them mic all their amps and drums to get a quality mix of instruments and vocals. Some amps have aux outs that can be tied into soundboard, and some dont. This is a hard question to answer not knowing how their sound will be setup. If everything is already fed through the sound board, a line out to your camera will suffice as long as it is not overdriven but then you have no ontrol over the mix as the sound person will control what he sends you. and unless you have a means of communicating with him this can lead to problems. Most house soud people don't have any idea what is needed for video, unless they do studio recording as well. We have gone as far as setting up a second 24 channel sound board with xlr Y connectors splitting all board inputs to both boards, tied to all mic, instrument feeds to contol our own audio, seperate from the house feeds. SO I know I really have not answered your question, probably given you more to think about.

paul


videobear
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Oct 16, 2005, 2:12 PM

Post #3 of 30 (4101 views)
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Re: [dansen] Shooting a band's gig [In reply to] Can't Post
Whether you record from the board or from your own mics, you may also want to get a CD of the numbers the band plays, as a backup and/or a sweetener.

Most live gigs in clubs are terribly dark, even darker than wedding receptions. If it's a concert, then you can expect more lights.




Regards,
Doug Graham
Panda Productions


dansen
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Oct 16, 2005, 5:20 PM

Post #4 of 30 (4097 views)
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Re: [ppatton] Shooting a band's gig [In reply to] Can't Post
How would you mike all their instruments? Through the aux out in their amps? Y'see I haven't got a clue about sound equipment. In this case, where would the sound go?

Also, if I was recording directly from the sound board just to capture the vocals or/and the instruments, what do I need to actually attach to the sound board? Is it straight to an iRiver? A DAT recorder? Wireless receiver and transmitter bringing signal straight to the camera?


videobear
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Oct 17, 2005, 10:03 AM

Post #5 of 30 (4068 views)
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Re: [dansen] Shooting a band's gig [In reply to] Can't Post
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How would you mike all their instruments?
I wouldn't worry about mikeing all the instruments. Place a mic (or a stereo mic, or two mono mics in an "X" configuration for a stereo image), in a good listening location...generally stage center, well in front of the main speakers.




Regards,
Doug Graham
Panda Productions


dansen
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Oct 17, 2005, 11:32 AM

Post #6 of 30 (4065 views)
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Re: [videobear] Shooting a band's gig [In reply to] Can't Post
So you're saying that I should shoot the images with my camera and where sound is concerned put a shotgun mic centre stage (not hooked up to anything) and record the sound that way? I really don't get what you mean..it's not you, it's me...


videobear
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Oct 17, 2005, 11:57 AM

Post #7 of 30 (4064 views)
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Re: [dansen] Shooting a band's gig [In reply to] Can't Post
Yes, that's one way to do it...simply use your own mic, not hooked up to anyone's sound board. Rather than a shotgun, you might want to use a cardioid mic (wider pickup pattern). Another mic that can work well is a PZM "boundary layer" or "flat" mic. However, the PZM's frequency response depends partly on how large a flat surface it's placed on (you often see these mics on conference tables for group telephone conference calls). For recording a concert, a PZM can be placed on a plexiglass sheet 2 or 3 feet on a side, if you have somewhere that this can be placed.

Most mics are mono. If you want to record in stereo, you can get a special stereo mic, or you can place two mono mics at the same location. Angle them so that the mics point at opposite corners of the stage, in a sort of "X" or "Y" configuration.




Regards,
Doug Graham
Panda Productions


dansen
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Oct 17, 2005, 4:41 PM

Post #8 of 30 (4048 views)
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Re: [videobear] Shooting a band's gig [In reply to] Can't Post
But is that not the same as recording the sound directly onto my camera using the camera mic? I'm trying to get the sound and not the crowd or any background noise. I can mix in the crowd that is recorded from the camera mic if I want to later on. But to have JUST the music and vocals on one tape on on an MP3, how would I go about that? Just imagine I know nothing about sound (which I don't)...

The method you suggested about having the mics on the stage recording the music coming from the speakers will surely just pick up a load of noise???


videobear
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Oct 17, 2005, 6:19 PM

Post #9 of 30 (4042 views)
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Re: [dansen] Shooting a band's gig [In reply to] Can't Post
Yes, you will pick up some of the crowd noise. You'll also pick up sound reflections from walls, etc. However, if you use a mic with a good pickup pattern (not an omni mic, which picks up from all around, but a cardioid, which favors a fairly wide cone in front of the mic), those will be minimized.

The best place to locate your camera is almost never the best place to put your mic, which is why using a separate mic is better than using the on-camera one. Generally, you want the mic to be close to the sound source. The setup I described would have the mic placed at the center of the stage, and maybe back at about the first row of seats. If there's a balcony, sometimes the acoustics of the place give quite good sound there.

If you want less of the ambient sounds, you can mic the band's speakers. Use an instrument mic that's capable of taking high sound levels without distorting, and be careful to set your recording levels so the sound doesn't clip. You can place the mic maybe 3-5 ft. from the speaker.




Regards,
Doug Graham
Panda Productions


dansen
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Oct 18, 2005, 7:20 AM

Post #10 of 30 (4028 views)
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Re: [videobear] Shooting a band's gig [In reply to] Can't Post
And by pacing the mic by the speaker, it'll pick up 'clean' sound?


dansen
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Oct 18, 2005, 7:29 AM

Post #11 of 30 (4025 views)
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Re: [videobear] Shooting a band's gig [In reply to] Can't Post
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If you want less of the ambient sounds, you can mic the band's speakers. Use an instrument mic that's capable of taking high sound levels without distorting, and be careful to set your recording levels so the sound doesn't clip. You can place the mic maybe 3-5 ft. from the speaker.
What's an instrument mic? And what equipment do I need to mic the bands speakers and monitor the sound levels? Does the sound go to an MP3 player or a DAT recorder or can it go directly to the camera?


videobear
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Oct 18, 2005, 1:00 PM

Post #12 of 30 (3994 views)
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Re: [dansen] Shooting a band's gig [In reply to] Can't Post
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What's an instrument mic? And what equipment do I need to mic the bands speakers and monitor the sound levels? Does the sound go to an MP3 player or a DAT recorder or can it go directly to the camera?

The Sennheiser e604, for example: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/...dedTroughType=search

Instrument mics are microphones specially designed for the high dynamic range of close micing instruments. To mic the speakers, all you need is a mic or two...I just meant, "put the mics close to the speakers". To monitor the sound levels you need a set of headphones. An audio level display is also nice, but not an absolute requirement. If you hook the mic(s) to your camcorder, you can monitor from your camera's headphone jack during the shoot. But no matter what sort of recorder you use (MP3, DAT, minidisc, camcorder) you should check the levels BEFORE the performance. Make sure the sound doesn't clip or break up, even at the loudest parts.




Regards,
Doug Graham
Panda Productions


dansen
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Oct 20, 2005, 8:44 AM

Post #13 of 30 (3926 views)
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Re: [videobear] Shooting a band's gig [In reply to] Can't Post
And if I wanted to record all the sound that is going through the house sound board, what do I need?


Beverly
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Oct 20, 2005, 9:31 PM

Post #14 of 30 (3911 views)
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Re: [dansen] Shooting a band's gig [In reply to] Can't Post
Do not go into this gig thinking you are going to be able to get good sound from the soundboard at the club. They all suck for your intentions. They are not mixed for video or even to make a good CD. They are only mixing the sound for the location that it is being heard. If you are in a small bar then they will probably not have the drums mic'd and the guitar will come through distorted, Oh, and there will be a terrible hissing sound.

As videobear said if you are wanting to limit the crowd noise then you need to but a mic on the speakers but, make sure the mic can handle the sound coming out.

Also I am not really understanding why you are not wanting the crowd noise. If you are shooting a video of them performing to a live crowd it will sound wierd watching the video with out hearing the fans. Your video and audio will not match up. If they are hoping that you can record this and use the music to make a CD that is studio quality or a music video that has studio quality sound they will be dissappointed. You will not be able to produce it. If they want studio quality they need to go rent studio time.

If the band is wanting to use this video to help them get other gigs they need the crowd noise. An entertainment manager at clubs and bars wants to book bands that will bring in a crowd and get the crowd excited. If the crowd is happy the stay longer and spend more money. If they don't hear the crowd on the video then it could be a turn off.

Remember ambient noise isn't always a bad thing.


dansen
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Oct 21, 2005, 4:21 AM

Post #15 of 30 (3898 views)
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Re: [Beverly] Shooting a band's gig [In reply to] Can't Post
Okay, so here's the scene. Incredibly small venue. There's a singer, guitarist, bassist and drums. There's a mixing board but not sure what's going through it. If I'm going to use microphones and put them 3 - 5 from the amps on stage: 1) do they all have to be instrument mics? and 2) what are they connected to? Or how can I get them all to go to the camera? Wouldn't I have to mix or something?


Beverly
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Oct 21, 2005, 5:12 AM

Post #16 of 30 (3893 views)
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Re: [dansen] Shooting a band's gig [In reply to] Can't Post
If the microphones do not have a self recorder on them you will need to run them into your camera. If you run them in on different channells then you can mix them later. I read in another post that you were looking at purchasing in a XL1s these are good cameras and you will have the capability to run two SLRs through the camera with a MA-100 or MA-200 adapter. Well worth the purchase if you did not get it as an add on.

Personally if you can run a mic from a speaker to your camera and then use the shotgun on the front of the camera I would do that assuming your camera is center stage. Also I would put another mic if you have the option on the stage with the band and one on the microphone that the singer will be using. However you will need to do an audio check before the show starts to make sure you set the levels appropriately. I would have the band play their hardest/loudest song for the check. This way you will not peg out your sound. It is better to have to raise your audio a little than to have it clipping.


videobear
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Oct 21, 2005, 6:18 AM

Post #17 of 30 (3891 views)
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Re: [Beverly] Shooting a band's gig [In reply to] Can't Post
four audio inputs on the XL1s, aren't there? (But you have to record in 12 bit, not 16 bit mode).




Regards,
Doug Graham
Panda Productions


dansen
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Oct 21, 2005, 8:26 AM

Post #18 of 30 (3888 views)
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Re: [videobear] Shooting a band's gig [In reply to] Can't Post
12 bit? 16 bit? AHHHHH!!!!!! If I connect, say, 3 microphones to my camera with a wire...are you saying that the tracks will be split up on the miniDV tape so I can edit and mix them afterwards?


(This post was edited by dansen on Oct 21, 2005, 8:26 AM)


dansen
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Oct 21, 2005, 8:31 AM

Post #19 of 30 (3885 views)
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Re: [Beverly] Shooting a band's gig [In reply to] Can't Post
What do I need to do an audio check and check levels? What are SLRs?

I have to rent the camera, most likely the Sony PD170. I want to have one camera handheld, moving from close-ups of the band to close-ups and wide shots of the crowd. This will be eye-level with the band from the side of the side. The 2nd camera will get several different angles of the band on stage.


videobear
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Oct 21, 2005, 9:29 AM

Post #20 of 30 (3882 views)
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Re: [dansen] Shooting a band's gig [In reply to] Can't Post
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If I connect, say, 3 microphones to my camera with a wire...are you saying that the tracks will be split up on the miniDV tape so I can edit and mix them afterwards?

Yes.




Regards,
Doug Graham
Panda Productions


videobear
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Oct 21, 2005, 9:36 AM

Post #21 of 30 (3881 views)
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Re: [dansen] Shooting a band's gig [In reply to] Can't Post
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What do I need to do an audio check and check levels?
Listen through a set of headphones. Make sure the audio doesn't clip (a harsh, crackling sound) at the loud parts. If your recorder (or camera) has audio level meters, make sure the peaks never exceed 0 dB.

Quote
What are SLRs?
XLRs. That's a type of audio connector, generally found on professional equipment. The connector has three pins, and locks securely in place. Besides the security, XLRs are "balanced". Using balanced audio cables, when you have a run of more than about 10-15 feet, greatly reduces the electrical noise picked up by the mic cable.

Quote
I have to rent the camera, most likely the Sony PD170. I want to have one camera handheld, moving from close-ups of the band to close-ups and wide shots of the crowd. This will be eye-level with the band from the side of the side. The 2nd camera will get several different angles of the band on stage.
The PD-170 can only record two channels of audio at a time. If you want to shoot handheld, you'll have to 1) run your wired mics to the second, stationary cam, 2) record your audio to a minidisc or MP3 device, or 3) use wireless microphones.




Regards,
Doug Graham
Panda Productions


wilebill
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Oct 21, 2005, 10:07 PM

Post #22 of 30 (3868 views)
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Re: [dansen] Shooting a band's gig [In reply to] Can't Post
Dude, sounds like this audio thing might be over your head. May be a good idea to hire an audio guy to tag along.

Regards,
Billy Horton
Video Image Productions

Studio & On-Location Video Production
2 NewTek VT[4.6] Editing Suites


dansen
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Oct 22, 2005, 2:18 PM

Post #23 of 30 (3849 views)
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Re: [wilebill] Shooting a band's gig [In reply to] Can't Post
Any recommendations for books on Sound for Digital Film/Video etc? It's not that this info is going over my head, it's just that I was confused about putting the mics on the stage and having the sound go straight to the tape in-camera.

I thought a sound guy would never just put a mic near an amp as you'd just get a fuzzy noise and you wouldn't be able to hear anything properly. But obviously not. I suppose that's the energtic LIVE sound that viewers would want to hear when viewing a live DVD. You're correct about what you said there Beverly.


DSE
Veteran


Oct 22, 2005, 9:49 PM

Post #24 of 30 (3836 views)
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Re: [dansen] Shooting a band's gig [In reply to] Can't Post
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Any recommendations for books on Sound for Digital Film/Video etc? It's not that this info is going over my head, it's just that I was confused about putting the mics on the stage and having the sound go straight to the tape in-camera.

I thought a sound guy would never just put a mic near an amp as you'd just get a fuzzy noise and you wouldn't be able to hear anything properly. But obviously not. I suppose that's the energtic LIVE sound that viewers would want to hear when viewing a live DVD. You're correct about what you said there Beverly.

I'd recommend Jay Rose' book on production sound, but it's also fairly steep in some segments. I'd follow the advice above for this particular gig; have someone schooled in audio tag along.
To put mics on stage, you'll want to work with a mixer, if it's a band, but the better opp is to use their mixer, taking an aux out that has its own mix. Or, take the house mix, but realize that you're entirely at the mercy of whatever the sound man does during the gig.

You can record room audio with an iRiver, a second cam, a DAT machine, or any other device capable of recording digital. For music, I'd definitely recommend you not use 12bit audio. That would be a bad thing in post.

BTW, you can put most any kind of mic (excepting ribbons) next to a speaker and get it clean, unless the mic can't manage a reasonably high SPL. Most mics can. Condensers sometimes can't manage super hot points of source, but...we're talking a narrow subject here. However, you rarely want to mic a PA speaker because you won't get the full range of sound, particularly in a 2 way enclosure that has a horn and driver.

Search around online for sources related to X/Y recording, A/B recording, stereo recording in general. That might help.

Douglas Spotted Eagle
Author, producer, composer
www.vasst.com
"I enjoy music, long walks at sunset on the beach, and poking dead things with a sharp stick."


Michael Colford
Novice

Oct 23, 2005, 10:35 AM

Post #25 of 30 (3547 views)
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However, the PZM's frequency response depends partly on how large a flat surface it's placed on (you often see these mics on conference tables for group telephone conference calls). For recording a concert, a PZM can be placed on a plexiglass sheet 2 or 3 feet on a side, if you have somewhere that this can be placed.
 I'm very interested in your comments about using a PZM on a sheet, in this kind of situation Doug. I'm afraid, that I don't understand what you mean by placing it on a plexiglass sheet "2 or 3 feet on a side, if you have somewhere that this can be placed." Are you saying to lay down 2 or 3' square sheet somewhere in the sound area with the PZM on it, to act as a sort of large sound receptor? Michael Colford

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