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Home: Video University Forums: Wedding & Event Videography:
Achilles Heel of DSLR video

 
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KevinShaw
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Oct 30, 2009, 8:18 AM

Post #1 of 27 (1350 views)
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Achilles Heel of DSLR video Can't Post
Darn, it figures there would be some catch: http://www.dvxuser.com/...wthread.php?t=187503

Summary: a lot of aliasing due to the way those high-res sensors are being read.


Scott S
Veteran

Oct 30, 2009, 1:03 PM

Post #2 of 27 (1329 views)
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Re: [KevinShaw] Achilles Heel of DSLR video [In reply to] Can't Post
Dude that video wa shot with an iphone.. gotta read the whole post.. yes you may have issues depending on how careful you are but the reality is that the majority of the problems are seen only by pixel peepers.. in other words, people who are more concerned with finding every short coming flaw of a tool than actually working. Tongue Admittedly, Barry Green is a more of a professional pixel peeper who's testing is informative and insightlful.. I just think that more people just go "Cool! nice shallow DOF! I'm gonna go shoot with this thing!" Most people aren't going to even notice the majority of the aliasing artifacts anyway.. and moire can be shot around if you notice it in your screen.. if not.. then oh well guess your tile roof will have a pretty pattern in it..Smile Not the end of the world, especially in a wedding video..


KevinShaw
Veteran

Oct 30, 2009, 9:01 PM

Post #3 of 27 (1293 views)
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Re: [Scott S] Achilles Heel of DSLR video [In reply to] Can't Post
It's not about the sample video, it's the concept of aliasing on the DSLRs which is relevant here. For a more personal look see this DVinfo discussion, which is where I got the link to Barry's analysis:

http://www.dvinfo.net/...-24p-resolution.html


Scott S
Veteran

Oct 30, 2009, 10:12 PM

Post #4 of 27 (1285 views)
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Re: [KevinShaw] Achilles Heel of DSLR video [In reply to] Can't Post
In Reply To
It's not about the sample video, it's the concept of aliasing on the DSLRs which is relevant here. For a more personal look see this DVinfo discussion, which is where I got the link to Barry's analysis:

http://www.dvinfo.net/...-24p-resolution.html
Here's a quote from the thread you linked to that I think sums it up nicely...

"the 7d has footage that looks awesome and i can afford it. case closed. "
Smile


GmElliott
Veteran


Oct 31, 2009, 11:07 AM

Post #5 of 27 (1255 views)
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Re: [KevinShaw] Achilles Heel of DSLR video [In reply to] Can't Post
Kevin, why are you talking yourself out of using one. Aliasing/rolling shutter....even with these "weaknesses" they (HDSLRS) produce better imagery than anything currently available now at even twice/trice the price.




Glen Elliott
http://www.GmElliottVideo.com
Glen Elliott on Vimeo


FaithPoison
Enthusiast


Oct 31, 2009, 11:43 AM

Post #6 of 27 (1250 views)
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Re: [GmElliott] Achilles Heel of DSLR video [In reply to] Can't Post
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... Aliasing/rolling shutter....even with these "weaknesses" they (HDSLRS) produce better imagery than anything currently available now at even twice/trice the price.

Smaller sensors = better image. That's why I used the 1/4" FX7 for so long. Laugh



Faith Poison Films
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Learn how to make money videotaping weddings like the big boys!!





KevinShaw
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Oct 31, 2009, 4:51 PM

Post #7 of 27 (1236 views)
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Re: [GmElliott] Achilles Heel of DSLR video [In reply to] Can't Post
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Kevin, why are you talking yourself out of using one. Aliasing/rolling shutter....even with these "weaknesses" they (HDSLRS) produce better imagery than anything currently available now at even twice/trice the price.

Not talking myself out of it, I'm just disappointed to find out that these cameras are essentially producing SD-resolution video - really nice SD video with good DOF control, but I would have preferred to see better results on the resolution tests and less aliasing/moire. Just thought people should know.


Brackish
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Oct 31, 2009, 10:51 PM

Post #8 of 27 (1218 views)
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Re: [KevinShaw] Achilles Heel of DSLR video [In reply to] Can't Post
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I'm just disappointed to find out that these cameras are essentially producing SD-resolution video
So they're SDSLRs.



------------------------------------------------------------
"still motion is who everyone else is trying to be like"


FaithPoison
Enthusiast


Oct 31, 2009, 11:58 PM

Post #9 of 27 (1216 views)
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Re: [KevinShaw] Achilles Heel of DSLR video [In reply to] Can't Post
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In Reply To
Kevin, why are you talking yourself out of using one. Aliasing/rolling shutter....even with these "weaknesses" they (HDSLRS) produce better imagery than anything currently available now at even twice/trice the price.

Not talking myself out of it, I'm just disappointed to find out that these cameras are essentially producing SD-resolution video - really nice SD video with good DOF control, but I would have preferred to see better results on the resolution tests and less aliasing/moire. Just thought people should know.

But if the customers don't have HDTV's then what's the point of upgrading to HD cameras at all? Tongue j/k



Faith Poison Films
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Learn how to make money videotaping weddings like the big boys!!





Darrell Aubert
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Nov 1, 2009, 5:32 AM

Post #10 of 27 (1204 views)
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Re: [KevinShaw] Achilles Heel of DSLR video [In reply to] Can't Post
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these cameras are essentially producing SD-resolution video - really nice SD video with good DOF control, but I would have preferred to see better results on the resolution tests and less aliasing/moire. Just thought people should know.
WHAT?? SD quality video? These cameras produce video FAR better than any other HDV camera on the market. Trust me, I own both. My 7D produces the best image I've ever seen out of a sub 10k camera. These DSLRs aren't even in the same ball park when compared to an A1 or Z7

Darrell Aubert
The Smugboy


KevinShaw
Veteran

Nov 1, 2009, 7:21 AM

Post #11 of 27 (1188 views)
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Re: [Darrell Aubert] Achilles Heel of DSLR video [In reply to] Can't Post
The images from these cameras can be impressive, but if you look at the resolution chart results there's something odd going on there. Granted that resolution isn't everything, it's dissapointing that DSLRs with 10+ MP sensors are having trouble acheiving maximum HD resolving power when running in video mode.

Come to think of it, this may make DSLRs perfect for those here who say their customers don't care about HD delivery: you can offer all the benefits of large sensors and widescreen recording while continuing to deliver in SD, and a Canon 7D body costs about the same as a used DV video camera.


Darrell Aubert
Veteran


Nov 1, 2009, 7:44 AM

Post #12 of 27 (1185 views)
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Re: [KevinShaw] Achilles Heel of DSLR video [In reply to] Can't Post
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The images from these cameras can be impressive, but if you look at the resolution chart results there's something odd going on there. Granted that resolution isn't everything, it's dissapointing that DSLRs with 10+ MP sensors are having trouble acheiving maximum HD resolving power when running in video mode.

Come to think of it, this may make DSLRs perfect for those here who say their customers don't care about HD delivery: you can offer all the benefits of large sensors and widescreen recording while continuing to deliver in SD, and a Canon 7D body costs about the same as a used DV video camera.
Dude, you're on crack. Go out and get one of these cameras and then compare it to whatever you're shooting with now. Nothing out right now that is affordable even comes close to what you'll get out of a 7D.

Darrell Aubert
The Smugboy


FaithPoison
Enthusiast


Nov 1, 2009, 7:57 AM

Post #13 of 27 (1181 views)
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Re: [Darrell Aubert] Achilles Heel of DSLR video [In reply to] Can't Post
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In Reply To
The images from these cameras can be impressive, but if you look at the resolution chart results there's something odd going on there. Granted that resolution isn't everything, it's dissapointing that DSLRs with 10+ MP sensors are having trouble acheiving maximum HD resolving power when running in video mode.

Come to think of it, this may make DSLRs perfect for those here who say their customers don't care about HD delivery: you can offer all the benefits of large sensors and widescreen recording while continuing to deliver in SD, and a Canon 7D body costs about the same as a used DV video camera.
Dude, you're on crack. Go out and get one of these cameras and then compare it to whatever you're shooting with now. Nothing out right now that is affordable even comes close to what you'll get out of a 7D.

LaughLaugh I had to check the date...I thought maybe it was an April Fool's joke. Laugh

Even my little non-DSLR GH1 $600 consumer camera blows away any prosumer HD cam I've ever used..."mud" and all...with the right lenses.

Just for the hell of it, I shot an entire reception in one of Houston's DARKEST venues last night with NO camera light. And if it's SD, it damn good looking SD...so I can live with it. Laugh

Aliasing...it the cool new "film grain" of the 21st century. Tongue



Faith Poison Films
Limited video-taper training webinar seats available - book today - I take Paypal!
Learn how to make money videotaping weddings like the big boys!!





Dave Williams
Veteran


Nov 1, 2009, 12:50 PM

Post #14 of 27 (1169 views)
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Re: [KevinShaw] Achilles Heel of DSLR video [In reply to] Can't Post
I gotta tell you, Kevin, the 5DMKII is the best SD camera I've ever owned. I can't wait for the HD version to come out.


Scott S
Veteran

Nov 1, 2009, 2:15 PM

Post #15 of 27 (1157 views)
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Re: [Dave Williams] Achilles Heel of DSLR video [In reply to] Can't Post
I'm not sure there's much point in continuing this thread since we have some people who must believe the world is flat too...


Scott S
Veteran

Nov 1, 2009, 2:19 PM

Post #16 of 27 (1156 views)
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Re: [KevinShaw] Achilles Heel of DSLR video [In reply to] Can't Post
Dude.. do you not understand how ridiculous you sound saying some thing like that? Just cause there's aliasing doesn't mean it's SD resolution.. aliasing affects straight fine lines and fine repeated patterns.. And it varies how much.. You need to watch some of the videos produced at HD resolution..


FaithPoison
Enthusiast


Nov 1, 2009, 8:39 PM

Post #17 of 27 (1135 views)
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Re: [Dave Williams] Achilles Heel of DSLR video [In reply to] Can't Post
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I gotta tell you, Kevin, the 5DMKII is the best SD camera I've ever owned. I can't wait for the HD version to come out.


If you're trolling DVX like I do in between monthly ventures into fantasy, please let me know when the HD version of the GH1 comes out. DVX users are experts.


I can't wait to go HD like the big boys!!!! (I've had my eye on the HMC40).



Faith Poison Films
Limited video-taper training webinar seats available - book today - I take Paypal!
Learn how to make money videotaping weddings like the big boys!!





KevinShaw
Veteran

Nov 2, 2009, 4:15 AM

Post #18 of 27 (1111 views)
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Re: [Scott S] Achilles Heel of DSLR video [In reply to] Can't Post
Okay, I obviously didn't approach this discussion properly so we might just as well let it go, but if you follow the DVinfo discussion and consider why an 18 MP still camera isn't resolving fine detail as well as it should in video mode there's something useful to learn there. I'd still like to have a 7d for depth of field control and low-light response, but I won't expect it to yield 1000 TV lines of discernible resolution - which it ought to be able to do.


FaithPoison
Enthusiast


Nov 2, 2009, 8:58 AM

Post #19 of 27 (1090 views)
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Re: [KevinShaw] Achilles Heel of DSLR video [In reply to] Can't Post
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Okay, I obviously didn't approach this discussion properly so we might just as well let it go, but if you follow the DVinfo discussion and consider why an 18 MP still camera isn't resolving fine detail as well as it should in video mode there's something useful to learn there. I'd still like to have a 7d for depth of field control and low-light response, but I won't expect it to yield 1000 TV lines of discernible resolution - which it ought to be able to do.

Nah, it's interesting reading. I think that Barry Green fella might be the only person on DVX that actually does paying gigs in the video biz, and he's been giving lots of technical feedback on the 5D, 7D, and GH1, which is the only reason I go over to DVX forum when I've got the itch to buy a new camera...so this kinda stuff is helpful.

Alls I can say is don't get too hung up on the DVX pixel peepers, and find a camera that has the image (as in the video...not how cool it looksLaugh) and practicality you want...then try to put it to work in your arsenal of weapons.

I try to post helpful crap on DVX, but I'm afraid that it is really not of any use to most of the forum members, so I don't visit much after buying my new gear. Most of them are not interested in "work" cameras, but making "indie" student films...which is totally fine (I also like videotaping my catsLaugh). An "ultimate" rig for most of those guys is a $400 palmcorder with $5000 worth of bullsh*t attached to it, versus a complete...out of the box...piece of money-making kit like the HMC150. Laugh



Faith Poison Films
Limited video-taper training webinar seats available - book today - I take Paypal!
Learn how to make money videotaping weddings like the big boys!!





KevinShaw
Veteran

Nov 2, 2009, 9:56 AM

Post #20 of 27 (1078 views)
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Re: [FaithPoison] Achilles Heel of DSLR video [In reply to] Can't Post
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Alls I can say is don't get too hung up on the DVX pixel peepers...

Yeah, I should have just mentioned this in passing as an interesting technical note, rather than trying to make a bigger deal out of it. Next topic...
Crazy


Scott S
Veteran

Nov 2, 2009, 12:20 PM

Post #21 of 27 (1058 views)
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Re: [FaithPoison] Achilles Heel of DSLR video [In reply to] Can't Post
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Alls I can say is don't get too hung up on the DVX pixel peepers, and find a camera that has the image (as in the video...not how cool it looksLaugh) and practicality you want...then try to put it to work in your arsenal of weapons.
One of the smartest things ever to appear on this forum.. Smile

BTW, to your other comment, the more I use the HMC150 the more I love it... Even if I get 2 7Ds, I ain't getting rid of that camera.. we had a no light requirement for a high end donor party recently, we switched over to 60p so we could use the 18db setting.. the footage came out so much better than I could have imagined.. I would be surprised if any video camera short of the EX1 could touch this camera for useable low light footage...


Joe Taravella
Novice


Nov 4, 2009, 1:17 PM

Post #22 of 27 (989 views)
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Re: [KevinShaw] Achilles Heel of DSLR video [In reply to] Can't Post
This doesn't concern me. There may be some situations where motion is affected negatively by the way the technology captures the image but overall the gain is far greater than the loss. I don't get the repetitive attacks on these cameras and the constant effort by some to try to prove that they're so bad. It's not like this is a camera that's slated for release next year or something. There have been numerous studios using these cameras and producing a stellar product for a while now.
Joe Taravella
Studio Vieux Carre


KevinShaw
Veteran

Nov 4, 2009, 8:49 PM

Post #23 of 27 (955 views)
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Re: [Joe Taravella] Achilles Heel of DSLR video [In reply to] Can't Post
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I don't get the repetitive attacks on these cameras and the constant effort by some to try to prove that they're so bad.

I shouldn't have presented this discussion that way, but it is worth noting that these cameras have some limitations - which aren't bad considering the other advantages and price. 'Nuff said.


MLiebergot
Veteran


Nov 5, 2009, 6:17 AM

Post #24 of 27 (929 views)
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Re: [Joe Taravella] Achilles Heel of DSLR video [In reply to] Can't Post
Quote
I don't get the repetitive attacks on these cameras and the constant effort by some to try to prove that they're so bad.
Joe, I think that you'll realize that the majority of people attacking DSLR video are the same one who attacked HDV video when it was introduced. They aren't early adopters of new technology and are cautious, maybe but rightfully so might not have the funds to purchase the latest technology. So they make a lot of statements trying to debunk the technology, making themselves feel better in the process.

Now DSLRs are a bit different than HDV video, because the current crop of cameras are not conducive for their long form style of edit.


Michael

Cameras: (3) Sony FX1, Canon HV20
Audio: Marantz PMD620, Edirol R44, ZoomH4N, ZoomH2, Sennhesier G2
Mics: Rode NT5, Rode NT3, Rode M3, Rode NTG2, Shure SM57, AT822
Software: Sony Vegas, Final Cut Studio
Computer: MAC BABY! MacPro, MacBook Pro


Dave Williams
Veteran


Nov 5, 2009, 9:53 AM

Post #25 of 27 (914 views)
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Re: [MLiebergot] Achilles Heel of DSLR video [In reply to] Can't Post
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. . .not conducive for their long form style of edit.
I have to ask - because I keep seeing this - other than the actual ceremony, how many folks are actually recording things for longer than 12 minutes? My questions is then - even for people who deliver multi-hour productions - how does the maximum 12 minute run time of each shot have anything to do with what you deliver as a final product?

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