Video University: Video University Forums: Wedding & Event Videography: Check your Z7U. A major problem?: Page 2

VideoUniversity.com
Home	Free Library	Store
Free Catalog Please support VU by making your B&H purchases and links through this B&H ad. Doesn't cost a penny more.

See The New VU Postcard Catalog

To post in the forums see the Forum Guidelines.

Join or Renew Today.
New Benefits for all VU Members

Forum Guidelines and FAQ
Main Index	Search Posts
Who's Online	Log In

Home: Video University Forums: Wedding & Event Videography:
Check your Z7U. A major problem?

1 2

View All

glimmer
Veteran

Apr 12, 2008, 2:48 PM

Post #26 of 46 (894 views)
Shortcut

Re: [brucecleveland] Check your Z7U. A major problem? [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

Hey, Bruce, good talking to you Friday evening. For those mesmerized by the wonderful issues of this camera, check this out. It's a still frame from video I captured when talking with Bruce. Notice how the blur is on the right and not the left. Each box of DVD's were equally spaced and the curviture is based on the desk. Oh, and I didn't scale the image properly which is why it's skewed.

Marshall it really doesn't look like the 3 objects are exactly the same distance from the camera. Keep in mind that if you are quite a distance away and zoomed in the depth of field becomes very narrow and even a couple of inches difference will not be the same focus. I notice when we are zoomed in on the bride and groom from a great distance using manual focus we can only seem to focus real sharp on either the bride or groom, but one of them is always just a bit out of focus. Now this is with our 2100 cameras. This is magnified once you move to HD from SD, as is everything else. I am not trying to take the side of Sony here, just looking for any and all possible explanations.

Bruce

The image was skewed and not scaled properly. I'll do it later if I have time. The focus was fine. If you can image the image being properly scaled and stretched, then it would appear fine.

Sparky
Veteran

Apr 12, 2008, 4:56 PM

Post #27 of 46 (866 views)
Shortcut

Re: [glimmer] Check your Z7U. A major problem? [In reply to]	Can't Post

So ... is this issue only happening at a distance and with the iris fully open? Does it happen at any other setting?

StillMotion
User

Apr 12, 2008, 5:37 PM

Post #28 of 46 (858 views)
Shortcut

Re: [glimmer] Check your Z7U. A major problem? [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

bruceo
Veteran

Apr 13, 2008, 10:25 AM

Post #29 of 46 (803 views)
Shortcut

Re: [Sparky] Check your Z7U. A major problem? [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

So ... is this issue only happening at a distance and with the iris fully open? Does it happen at any other setting?

It happens at approximately the 60-95% telephoto end when your aperture is 1.8-2.0 It obviously is less noticeable as your aperture stops down but you will still have an inconsistent frame

First Sight Pictures

bruceo
Veteran

Apr 13, 2008, 11:14 AM

Post #30 of 46 (791 views)
Shortcut

Re: [Sparky] Check your Z7U. A major problem? [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

So ... is this issue only happening at a distance and with the iris fully open? Does it happen at any other setting?

If you have a Z7 you better test it, so far everyone we've tested has it and it is not good.
Here is a focus chart screen grab.

20 meters away centered exactly on the middle square. Pulled focus on the left target and zoomed out about 20% F1.8

http://www.firstsightpictures.com/z7focuschart.jpg

First Sight Pictures

glimmer
Veteran

Apr 13, 2008, 11:20 AM

Post #31 of 46 (788 views)
Shortcut

Re: [bruceo] Check your Z7U. A major problem? [In reply to]	Can't Post

Wow, that looks horrendous. What to do, what to do.

Give me a call or let me know if/when Chris contacts you. It'll be tough this week with NAB going on, and I wish I didn't have to cancel my plans, but this is very concerning.

brucecleveland
Veteran

Apr 13, 2008, 11:39 AM

Post #32 of 46 (781 views)
Shortcut

Re: [bruceo] Check your Z7U. A major problem? [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

So ... is this issue only happening at a distance and with the iris fully open? Does it happen at any other setting?

Hi Bruce

I am able to see the issue you talk about slightly. Have you tried this experiment that is not with the Z7? I mean no disrespect to you or Marshall as I know you both have been spending time testing out this camera, and honestly it is great to know about any issues that it may have, but....

I would really like to see everyone just relax now and enjoy the camera. Unless there is something we can do about these issues, which honestly many of them seem in my mind to be not worth talking about, then I feel we should all move on and and just use the camera. I apologize if I am trivializing any of this. We are stuck with these cameras and the more negatives people come up with, the less likely it is going to be that you well ever be able to sell these cameras for any price. It would be a different story if Sony took all of them back and we could get refunds, but that is never going to happen. I am almost to the point of not looking at any of the Z7 problem posts. I continue to love my Z7 more every time I use it. Maybe I will feel much different once I use it for a whole wedding. The latest problem you have been working on I still feel has something to do with the narrow depth of field. It just seems that ever since the play in the zoom ring came out, we are looking for problems with this camera. Again, Bruce I mean no disrespect, just getting frustrated with my big purchase.

Bruce Cleveland
"Always over my head, but not quite deep enough to drown."

(This post was edited by brucecleveland on Apr 14, 2008, 2:04 PM)

bruceo
Veteran

Apr 13, 2008, 12:20 PM

Post #33 of 46 (774 views)
Shortcut

Re: [brucecleveland] Check your Z7U. A major problem? [In reply to]	Can't Post

I actually wasn't concerned about any of the other "problems" because I prefer a manual lens for the most part. Yes the servo which affects the focus and zoom is ridiculously slow and should be better, but if I can have a real manual lens on a camera of this form factor, I'll take that any day. But no way can you have a lens that has an inconsistent blurry frame at this focal length definitely not in HD it looks like ass and amateurish. Now it they said the lens is cheap and there is a slight blur vignette at certain focal lengths, then that is fine because at least it would be relatively consistent. Not blurry on one half and sharper on the other. How can it be a shallow DOF issue when I remove that concern by being exactly the same distance from both and even if I wasn't if I focus on the target and back out the target should stay in focus. In this case the target goes soft and even blurrier as it moves to the left as the target on the right on the same focal plane is in relatively sharp focus compared to the blur on the right. If you measure out the circle the blur size is approximately twice as large meaning the image on that side is twice as blurry. If you're shooting family outings it is great. If you're actually trying to make money and shoot events the conditions you will run into at most events will even drive your auto settings to 1.6-2.0 and if you're zoomed in past 50% it is crap. If you are doing a production trying to achieve a film look and blurring out your background it is crap. If you are a poseur running around the park in the middle of the day with your camera in auto looking to impress someone then you'll never get to those settings and it won't be a problem for you.

In this case I had pretty much an entire dance concert ruined because anytime the performers moved to the left of the frame they are blurry and you can tell in SD as well as HD, that's BAD.....

Here is another vid showing the exact same prob on another cam whose serial number is 7 units away http://www.firstsightpictures.com/z7blur4.wmv

First Sight Pictures

(This post was edited by bruceo on Apr 13, 2008, 1:02 PM)

RT Steele
Veteran

Apr 13, 2008, 1:36 PM

Post #34 of 46 (748 views)
Shortcut

Re: [brucecleveland] Check your Z7U. A major problem? [In reply to]	Can't Post

We are stuck with these cameras and the more negatives people come up with, the less likely it is going to be that you well ever be able to sell these cameras for any price.

I finally found Bruce's "tree" video of this problem on my desktop... I forgot I downloaded it and didn't watch it until now. There plainly is a problem. When you pull out the focus gets way lost. And this is only a few shrubs. If you start doing wide bridal party shots this way it'll really show IMO. I'm sure people will find "trivial" things in the design of these things (like "rolling shutter" artifacts) but personally like Bruce and others, I'd be concerned too.

And I can't believe your stance in this: If it's broke... don't fix it, just hide the fact and unload it on the next guy. Laugh

I don't know... maybe this will blow over but to me, the cat's already out of the bag. Get Sony to fix it or at the very least keep making noise about it and force them to do some kind of damage control that will benefit current Z7 owners, if not future Sony cams.

Besides, if the resale value of this cam drops... and you have no problems with it, you'll be able to pick up a few more real cheap. Sly

- RT

brucecleveland
Veteran

Apr 13, 2008, 2:14 PM

Post #35 of 46 (736 views)
Shortcut

Re: [RT Steele] Check your Z7U. A major problem? [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

We are stuck with these cameras and the more negatives people come up with, the less likely it is going to be that you well ever be able to sell these cameras for any price.

- RT

No I did not mean to imply that we should just hide any issues these cameras might have, but I feel some of these issues have just been trivial. Apparently I am not the only one that feels this way. Out of the many many people on this forum that bought this camera, I have only seen 3 or 4 people now picking it apart. Some of the picking is probably warranted, but most of it is just picky. Personally when people start trying to sell the Z7 really cheap because of some of these issues, I will be first in line to buy them.

Bruce
"Always over my head, but not quite deep enough to drown."

bruceo
Veteran

Apr 13, 2008, 2:24 PM

Post #36 of 46 (733 views)
Shortcut

Re: [brucecleveland] Check your Z7U. A major problem? [In reply to]	Can't Post

People have not chimed in because they probably haven't noticed it and attributed what they have seen to operator or servo error. When my editor pointed ot to me that I was out of focus a lot I was shocked because I would have fired any other cameraman and I have been a stickler for tight focus in manual since I started shooting on the Canon XL1 years ago. So I sat down and analyzed that footage and noticed the problem of zooming in, setting focus, zooming out and gettins soft and the left side extra blurry. With peaking on full you can barely notice it softening on the left side and don't even notice it is even a little soft on the right. The XL1 had a pretty sorry auto lens, but this one is even slower (servo) and now more inconsistent.

First Sight Pictures

brucecleveland
Veteran

Apr 13, 2008, 2:31 PM

Post #37 of 46 (729 views)
Shortcut

Re: [bruceo] Check your Z7U. A major problem? [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

You may be right on this Bruce and again please don't mis-interpret my tone. I do appreciate what people like yourself and Marshall are doing as far as testing out problems and reporting them. It may never be a problem I will see, but I will be on the lookout for it. Keep us posted.

Bruce
"Always over my head, but not quite deep enough to drown."

bruceo
Veteran

Apr 14, 2008, 8:16 PM

Post #38 of 46 (659 views)
Shortcut

Re: [brucecleveland] Check your Z7U. A major problem? [In reply to]	Can't Post

Several more Z7s have been confirmed to have this issue. If you have a Z7 you better make sure yo understand this test and confirm it on yours because you can either find it in a test or you end up finding it on your paid footage that is ruined because you couldn't see it on your LCD

First Sight Pictures

brucecleveland
Veteran

Apr 14, 2008, 8:24 PM

Post #39 of 46 (656 views)
Shortcut

Re: [bruceo] Check your Z7U. A major problem? [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

Thanks Bruce. Do you have any things you are going to do differently when shooting to make this issue better? It sounds like you basically like the camera, as I do. I will be shooting a wedding this weekend, so I will see what the footage looks like. The couple are just going to let us shoot the wedding knowing ahead of time we are testing new equipment and they may or may not get a video. I am just doing back up with someone else actually shooting the wedding. Good chance to try out some of this stuff in real situations. I will report back on here what I find. Thanks again for your reports.

Bruce
"Always over my head, but not quite deep enough to drown."

(This post was edited by brucecleveland on Apr 14, 2008, 8:34 PM)

bruceo
Veteran

Apr 15, 2008, 4:29 PM

Post #40 of 46 (578 views)
Shortcut

Re: [glimmer] Check your Z7U. A major problem? [In reply to]	Can't Post

I went down to the rental house and met the service technician. We put a Fujinon off of a JVC HD250 on the Z7. Did the backfocus adjustment on the lens body and then did the same settings and saw a consistent frame, so basic troubleshooting skills would say that the lens is the cuprit.

He said he felt it was definitely a lens defect even before we did the test because he says he could see a curvature in the blur. http://www.firstsightpictures.com/z7blur5.ipg

First Sight Pictures

Sparky
Veteran

Apr 15, 2008, 5:05 PM

Post #41 of 46 (572 views)
Shortcut

Re: [bruceo] Check your Z7U. A major problem? [In reply to]	Can't Post

Bruce,

When you did your test with the charts on the garage ... about how far away do you think you were?

I'm going to set a test up outside today. I've got the all the other settings, but wondered if it made any difference how far away you were from the subject.

Thanks for checking on this.

bruceo
Veteran

Apr 15, 2008, 5:19 PM

Post #42 of 46 (569 views)
Shortcut

Re: [Sparky] Check your Z7U. A major problem? [In reply to]	Can't Post

About 22 paces, 20 meters or so

First Sight Pictures

kathysvideos
User

Apr 15, 2008, 5:25 PM

Post #43 of 46 (565 views)
Shortcut

Re: [bruceo] Check your Z7U. A major problem? [In reply to]	Can't Post

In Reply To

Now I think you're getting somewhere. If it proves to be the lens, what will Sony do? I love this camera and am planning on purchasing two from Josh, glimmer's contact, tomorrow. I just want to make sure this is going to be resolved first. Thanks everyone for your persistence regarding this. I'm not a complainer but i just want the camera to work properly before I dump a ton of money into my purchase.
Chuck Moore
KATCH Video
www.katchvideo.com
_______________________
http://www.katchvideo.com
and
http://www.katchvideo.blogspot.com

4EVER GROUP AFFILIATE

Brackish
Veteran

Apr 15, 2008, 10:36 PM

Post #44 of 46 (530 views)
Shortcut

Re: [kathysvideos] Check your Z7U. A major problem? [In reply to]	Can't Post

A similar issue is not that uncommon with off-brand
photographic lenses. It's an optics issue. Basically,
the various glass pieces inside the lens are not
aligned properly.

----------------------------------------------
"We'll always show up at the wedding with a gift bag for the bride. Inside we have these incredible fuzzy slippers in the teal of our branding."

glimmer
Veteran

Apr 17, 2008, 12:04 AM

Post #45 of 46 (461 views)
Shortcut

Re: [kathysvideos] Check your Z7U. A major problem? [In reply to]	Can't Post

I'm back again!

I have posted this on dvinfo.net and all owners of these cameras need to actually do these tests - it's simple, nothing difficult, and will provide insight into whether or not your cameras are actually working properly.
So, here's the story....

The camera records great footage, but the current issue is a concern. I've seen it on all of my cameras and I have four of them.

Zoom in on objects that have a similar focal distance with regards to where they are....makes sense....focus on the center object at full telephoto and zoom out. The left-most area will appear blurred. Zoom back in and pan to any of these objects and they are in focus. The concept is simple and if you don't understand, think of it this way - if you film a wedding and zoom into a bride/groom in the center aisle, the zoom out, the left side will be out of focus whereas the center and right will be in focus. But, if you zoom back in, the focus is intact. That's a serious problem.

Here's a link for the non-believers or whatever....

http://rapidshare.com/files/108111585/test002.wmv.html - I am not leaving this link up for too long.
http://www.vimeo.com/908039
It's 89 seconds long. Can't be more obvious. Consistent on ALL cameras.

bruceo
Veteran

Apr 17, 2008, 12:15 AM

Post #46 of 46 (456 views)
Shortcut

Re: [glimmer] Check your Z7U. A major problem? [In reply to]	Can't Post

Dont forget you have to open your iris all the way to 1.8-2.0 when you are at telephoto 75-80%. If you get way overexposed just turn your ND filters on an if that is not enough then start raising your shutter speed. If you have plenty of light your auto controls will never reach these settings. If you hav elow light like a reception then your camera will get to these settings, which is why it is important to resolve these issues because low light footage is tough enough to deal with blurring it makes it look crappier. For any film look folk this is critical because this is where you live in your camera when generating shallow DOF

First Sight Pictures

1 2

View All